Discouraging high school students from taking AP courses

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ServiceFirst

ServiceFirst

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Since many medical school programs do not accept AP credit or prefer college level courses in subjects like calculus, stats, and writing, should high school students interested in medical school be discouraged from taking AP courses and tests?

At my college, if you pass out of an AP course, you have to take the higher level course if you want the college-level class. For example, if you tested out of calculus for AP, you have to take theory of calculus, which math and engineering majors take.
 
No. I am very thankful for the AP classes that I took in high school: Chemistry, Physics, Biology, Statistics, among others. When I took the classes again in undergraduate, I was able to easily get As in those classes. It's too bad that your college makes you pass out and take the next level course, I'm not sure that most colleges are like that.
 
ServiceFirst said:
Since many medical school programs do not accept AP credit or prefer college level courses in subjects like calculus, stats, and writing, should high school students interested in medical school be discouraged from taking AP courses and tests?

At my college, if you pass out of an AP course, you have to take the higher level course if you want the college-level class. For example, if you tested out of calculus for AP, you have to take theory of calculus, which math and engineering majors take.
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What if you had never sent your scores? Or had never taken the exams? Many high schools don't require you to take the exam.

I've heard of a few schools that do make you pass out if you have AP credits. I'm guessing that's either to help them with staffing issues or to prevent AP students from hurting the grading curve for those who've never taken those classes. I've heard of students successfully lobbying to retake those classes, particularly if they only got a 3 or they took the AP class a few years ago and remember little.

IMHO, taking the next higher level up can be a plus, if you did learn the material in AP. Those bio and chem classes are such weeders.

A premed who's going to attend a school like that and who wants to retake those classes, should not be listing that college as the one to receive their AP scores.

BTW..because of schools like yours, med schools do allow you to take the next higher level courses in lieu of Gen Chem or Bio. Most just don't let you apply the AP credits towards the prereq req'ts.
 
I would still encourage high school students to take AP courses. Besides the material, the discipline and study skills you learn are crucial for college.


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No offense but this is exactly the terrible mindset that plagues the pre-med community. Sacrificing your intellectual curiosity and opportunities to learn for the sake of staying in the slow lane to buff your GPA. One upper level math class will not kill you. Nor will upper level English. And if you are a science major afraid of taking upper level science, you picked the wrong career.
In my opinion, the benefit of AP classes is not the additional credit your college grants, its the faster pace and increased difficulty that prepares you better for courses in college. Whether or not medical schools accept AP credit should not factor into a high school students decision to take AP classes.
 
ServiceFirst said:
Since many medical school programs do not accept AP credit or prefer college level courses in subjects like calculus, stats, and writing, should high school students interested in medical school be discouraged from taking AP courses and tests?

At my college, if you pass out of an AP course, you have to take the higher level course if you want the college-level class. For example, if you tested out of calculus for AP, you have to take theory of calculus, which math and engineering majors take.
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My school was similar for the sciences, if you got a 5 in bio/chem/physics you would get credit for both intro classes, a 4 would get you credit for one of them, a 3 would just get you credits toward graduation but you couldn't skip a class. if you got AP credit for a class you couldn't take it for a grade or credit.

Some of the most successful premeds were the ones with 3s on the APs or didn't submit AP scores. I was not so clever, didn't really know about this and had 5s on all 3 but graduated college with a 3.2 sGPA. Those 6 classes were a lot of potential relatively "easy" As I missed out on.

But I don't think that is a reason to not take AP classes or even the exams (we didn't have AP classes, just the opportunity to self-study for them and take the exam at the end of the intro class). Rather, at the very least, your school's (and my school's) premed advisors should discourage premed undergraduate applicants from submitting AP scores to the school on their website and in person.
 
DrHart said:
Sacrificing your intellectual curiosity and opportunities to learn for the sake of staying in the slow lane to buff your GPA. O
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I agree, but not all AP teachers are that great. If the student barely passed the exam with a 3, and feels that he needs to take Bio in college, he should be allowed to do so. Same if he took AP Bio as a sophomore or junior, and now it's a few years later, and he barely remembers anything.

As for "buffing one's GPA," I don't completely fault premeds for doing this. They didn't create the atmosphere where a very high GPA is usually needed for a trad unhooked applicant. They didn't make the rules of the game. A 3.4GPA can get you in the reject pile. A 3.6 GPA might get you an interview (assuming the rest of the app/MCAT is acceptable).
 
My schools have recently removed much of the privileges for students who took multiple APs (e.g. more strict course substitution).

I took a few AP courses when I was in high school. It was definitely one of the best learning opportunity in my life, and I was able to take advantage of the limited AP classes offered by my school.

But my sacrifice was a lower GPA. My school had college teaching faculty to teach our AP classes, and they deflated the grades to a certain degree (instead of inflating it in other schools).

If I were to choose, an "A+" in general level of chemistry is better than a "C" in AP chemistry. At my school, students are allowed to register for the AP exam w/o taking the class. Some students do that so they won't have to sabotage their GPA.

Just remember that APs don't matter for medical school admission.
 
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DameJulie said:
my school, students are allowed to register for the AP exam w/o taking the class. Some students do that so they won't have to sabotage their GPA.
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Yes, I've known a few who've self-studied and taken the AP exams, particularly for AP English Comp, which is a relatively easy exam if you have a strong English grammar/writing foundation.
 
AP classes were fantastic. I got out of bio one and two and was able to take so many interesting upper level classes as a result of having two extra opens in my schedule. I even did better in my upper level genetics and cell biology courses than I did in the introductory ones because I enjoyed them so much more. I would take the AP credit every time if I had to do it all over again.
 
TFredrick said:
AP classes were fantastic. I got out of bio one and two and was able to take so many interesting upper level classes as a result of having two extra opens in my schedule. I even did better in my upper level genetics and cell biology courses than I did in the introductory ones because I enjoyed them so much more. I would take the AP credit every time if I had to do it all over again.
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I agree. AP credits allow a student to open their schedules to take classes that interest them, making them more well rounded. I've seen premeds being able to take add'l foreign language classes, medical spanish, etc, because their schedules allowed for that.

IMHO, avoiding the weeder Bio and chem classes can be a plus.
 
ServiceFirst said:
Since many medical school programs do not accept AP credit or prefer college level courses in subjects like calculus, stats, and writing, should high school students interested in medical school be discouraged from taking AP courses and tests?
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No, but they should be made aware that high school AP classes are often not equivalent to undergrad courses. I have seen many applicants who waltzed through high school, loaded up on AP credits, and then strolled into a bunch of 200 level classes as college freshmen only to have their asses handed to them. They then proceed to spend the rest of undergrad, and perhaps a post bacc, trying to mitigate the GPA damage.

I encourage high school students to challenge themselves with AP classes, but there is no shame in "repeating" some classes, especially pre-reqs. Easing the adjustment to college, establishing a very solid knowledge base, and coming out of the gate with a solid GPA is a win-win-win.
 
Back in HS during the dark ages when the SAT was still out of 1600, I took enough AP classes to start undergrad 3 credits short of entering as a sophomore. I wasn't a science or pre-med major. My credits were in US History, European History, Government & Politics, Human Geography, Calculus AB, Music Theory, Chemistry, and English Language & Comp. For me this was great. It allowed me to lighten my course load significantly since many of these covered Lib Arts and Humanities requirements. When I decided to go back to school, even though I had the credit, I retook Gen Chem since it had been 10 years. Even if it's only been 2-3, don't be embarrassed.

Now I'm a bit of an outlier on SDN because I actively encourage time off between UG/Med School and not majoring in typical "pre-med" degrees. I honestly think there is too much focus esp. in the Gen Y culture of trying to brand yourself and find a track so early. It's honestly OK to pursue whatever interests you have to the highest level possible. So take an AP class because you enjoy the subject.
 
PreMedMissteps said:
Yes, I've known a few who've self-studied and taken the AP exams, particularly for AP English Comp, which is a relatively easy exam if you have a strong English grammar/writing foundation.
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Per, Collegeboard rules, this should be a universal thing, iirc.

Also, thanks to AP I got out of a ****ton of stupid classes that I would never wish to take in college. It helped a lot with Biology too, and that's just with a very modest 5 AP classes.
 
CyrilFiggis said:
Back in HS during the dark ages when the SAT was still out of 1600, I took enough AP classes to start undergrad 3 credits short of entering as a sophomore. I wasn't a science or pre-med major. My credits were in US History, European History, Government & Politics, Human Geography, Calculus AB, Music Theory, Chemistry, and English Language & Comp. For me this was great. It allowed me to lighten my course load significantly since many of these covered Lib Arts and Humanities requirements. When I decided to go back to school, even though I had the credit, I retook Gen Chem since it had been 10 years. Even if it's only been 2-3, don't be embarrassed.

Now I'm a bit of an outlier on SDN because I actively encourage time off between UG/Med School and not majoring in typical "pre-med" degrees. I honestly think there is too much focus esp. in the Gen Y culture of trying to brand yourself and find a track so early. It's honestly OK to pursue whatever interests you have to the highest level possible. So take an AP class because you enjoy the subject.
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The dark ages are back, SAT scores are out of 1600 again. Yep, were that old brah.
 
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Med Ed said:
No, but they should be made aware that high school AP classes are often not equivalent to undergrad courses. I have seen many applicants who waltzed through high school, loaded up on AP credits, and then strolled into a bunch of 200 level classes as college freshmen only to have their asses handed to them. They then proceed to spend the rest of undergrad, and perhaps a post bacc, trying to mitigate the GPA damage.

I encourage high school students to challenge themselves with AP classes, but there is no shame in "repeating" some classes, especially pre-reqs. Easing the adjustment to college, establishing a very solid knowledge base, and coming out of the gate with a solid GPA is a win-win-win.
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It really depends on the high school though. My high school AP classes in chemistry and physics were insanely difficult and structured like 200-level courses at engineering-focused colleges. It was pretty much a nightmare and effectively made me experience failing several tests for the first time. But the difficulty and extreme hard work in these classes actually made the prereqs and MCAT science sections look like a breeze, and they were excellent preparation to excel in upper level and graduate chemistry and physics courses.
 
Med Ed said:
No, but they should be made aware that high school AP classes are often not equivalent to undergrad courses. I have seen many applicants who waltzed through high school, loaded up on AP credits, and then strolled into a bunch of 200 level classes as college freshmen only to have their asses handed to them. They then proceed to spend the rest of undergrad, and perhaps a post bacc, trying to mitigate the GPA damage.

I encourage high school students to challenge themselves with AP classes, but there is no shame in "repeating" some classes, especially pre-reqs. Easing the adjustment to college, establishing a very solid knowledge base, and coming out of the gate with a solid GPA is a win-win-win.
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I think that happens more often when these students were not given much substantial homework in high school. Too many HS just give completion credit for turning in ****-on-a-shingle. Many have never really had to study because the curriculum or teacher was weak. Ever read some high school essays? Often they're returned with just a check mark on the top (for completion) and no red-lining of any grammar/syntax/other errors.

And often they're given study-sheets which literally tell them what will be on their tests. No need to actually read or study, just pre-answer those questions, memorize the answers, and spit them out on the tests.
 
All high schools are not created equal.

At some public high schools, mine in particular, the difference in the quality of instruction between the AP and regular courses was comically vast.

I enrolled in an even split of regular and AP courses freshman year and then moved on to all AP coursework in later years.

In my average suburban experience;

AP courses were for mostly for students who wanted to behave properly, learn the material and prepare for college.

Regular courses were overrun by disruptive students and mainly aimed at achieving a minimum passing score for the state exams.

These classrooms were two very different worlds.

Premeds belong in the AP courses.
 
McRibs said:
Premeds belong in the AP courses.
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I agree. The AP teachers are usually the strongest teachers at the school (altho that's not saying much sometimes 😵 ).

This sounds catty, but when I seen an incoming freshman premed who has only taken regular HS classes and has ho-hum stats (ACT 24, 3.5 GPA), then it's hard to believe that they will make it thru unless they're an amazing late bloomer or they were in a low SES school.
 
Thanks for everyone's perspective! This is really valuable for me because I'm trying to help give my brother sound perspectives regarding his high school coursework.

My high school's AP Program was very rigorous. I ended taking 9 AP tests and got 48 credits for my college as a result. I'm not discounting AP courses at all, or the reward of intellectual curiosity. I think taking AP classes on a intellectual level was very beneficial, and helped create a foundation for good critical and higher-level thinking skills for college.

On the other hand, again, theory of calculus, is the course you have to take for college-level calculus if you passed out of calculus AB and BC in high school. This course is notorious for being extremely challenging for math and engineering majors, who already have a stronger foundation in mathematics.

This is just one example of how my school requires you to take the higher level course if you already passed out of AP, but at least in my opinion, there are plenty of other ways to intellectual explore rather than this. Although as @gonnif mentioned, many medical schools are moving towards "competencies" rather than strict coursework requirements, which should help students in similar circumstances.
 
trickydick said:
My school was similar for the sciences, if you got a 5 in bio/chem/physics you would get credit for both intro classes, a 4 would get you credit for one of them, a 3 would just get you credits toward graduation but you couldn't skip a class. if you got AP credit for a class you couldn't take it for a grade or credit.

Some of the most successful premeds were the ones with 3s on the APs or didn't submit AP scores. I was not so clever, didn't really know about this and had 5s on all 3 but graduated college with a 3.2 sGPA. Those 6 classes were a lot of potential relatively "easy" As I missed out on.

But I don't think that is a reason to not take AP classes or even the exams (we didn't have AP classes, just the opportunity to self-study for them and take the exam at the end of the intro class). Rather, at the very least, your school's (and my school's) premed advisors should discourage premed undergraduate applicants from submitting AP scores to the school on their website and in person.
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Did you at least make it to medical school in the end?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Sadly those of us who went to high school in the dark ages learned the same thing in our regular classes that you are learning in your AP classes! Education has been so dumbed down over the years it's ridiculous.
 
ServiceFirst said:
Thanks for everyone's perspective! This is really valuable for me because I'm trying to help give my brother sound perspectives regarding his high school coursework.

My high school's AP Program was very rigorous. I ended taking 9 AP tests and got 48 credits for my college as a result. I'm not discounting AP courses at all, or the reward of intellectual curiosity. I think taking AP classes on a intellectual level was very beneficial, and helped create a foundation for good critical and higher-level thinking skills for college.

On the other hand, again, theory of calculus, is the course you have to take for college-level calculus if you passed out of calculus AB and BC in high school. This course is notorious for being extremely challenging for math and engineering majors, who already have a stronger foundation in mathematics.

This is just one example of how my school requires you to take the higher level course if you already passed out of AP, but at least in my opinion, there are plenty of other ways to intellectual explore rather than this. Although as @gonnif mentioned, many medical schools are moving towards "competencies" rather than strict coursework requirements, which should help students in similar circumstances.
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Theory of calculus sounds like real analysis to me honestly. Maybe a course description summary will help clarify.
 
Passing AP exams (and taking AP courses) makes you more competitive for good colleges (and scholarships?).. why would you discourage that

Not every step of your life should be dictated by what will be best for applying for med school
 
Advising students not to take AP courses when their preparation is sufficient is really really dumb. AP courses prepare you well for college - and the better you do in them, the better it looks for getting into a good college. Getting into a good college gives you better opportunities, which lead ultimately to better outcomes. I shouldn't be misinterpreted, as many are prone to do, as saying that you need to get into a good college to get into a good medical school. But that doesn't mean it's not easier to get into a good medical school if you've had certain opportunities that arose from your being at a good college. AP courses prepare you well for college and prepare you well to do well.
 
Toutie said:
Sadly those of us who went to high school in the dark ages learned the same thing in our regular classes that you are learning in your AP classes! Education has been so dumbed down over the years it's ridiculous.
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Wait, what? What makes you say that? I thought it was the other way around?


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gonnif said:
and most medical schools are moving away from calculus, @efle did we find any left that require it?
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When I applied UCLA was the only school that would not accept my AP Calc credits, and even they have since changed their policy. I don't know of any schools now that require a true college calc class.
 
mwsapphire said:
Wait, what? What makes you say that? I thought it was the other way around?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Click to expand...


I've heard the same thing from people who went to high school in the 40s and 50s. They claim that their classes were similar in rigor as many lower division college courses. Since many of them didn't go to college, they still have an understanding of history, the classics, English comp/grammar, and the arts, similar to those who have had challenging AP teachers/classes. They didn't have calculators, and many of them can add and multiply large numbers in their heads.
 
PreMedMissteps said:
I've heard the same thing from people who went to high school in the 40s and 50s. They claim that their classes were similar in rigor as many lower division college courses. Since many of them didn't go to college, they still have an understanding of history, the classics, English comp/grammar, and the arts, similar to those who have had challenging AP teachers/classes. They didn't have calculators, and many of them can add and multiply large numbers in their heads.
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Exactly! And you can pull that though into the 60's and probably into the early 70's too. I think the great downfall in our education system is when schools started teaching to pass a standardized test rather than to learn a subject. It has progressively become worse over the years.

When I was in high school calculators were just becoming mainstream, we were NOT allowed to use them. We had to do everything in our head. I remember taking statistics in college...we were actually allowed to bring a calculator for the final, but they were super expensive then and I couldn't afford one, so I had to do everything in my head or on scratch paper.
 
Toutie said:
Exactly! And you can pull that though into the 60's and probably into the early 70's too. I think the great downfall in our education system is when schools started teaching to pass a standardized test rather than to learn a subject. It has progressively become worse over the years.

When I was in high school calculators were just becoming mainstream, we were NOT allowed to use them. We had to do everything in our head. I remember taking statistics in college...we were actually allowed to bring a calculator for the final, but they were super expensive then and I couldn't afford one, so I had to do everything in my head or on scratch paper.
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You're....much older than I guessed. 😛
And that makes sense- fewer people were going to college so they needed better education in HS, and weren't so obsessed with standardized tests.
 
McRibs said:
All high schools are not created equal.

At some public high schools, mine in particular, the difference in the quality of instruction between the AP and regular courses was comically vast.

I enrolled in an even split of regular and AP courses freshman year and then moved on to all AP coursework in later years.

In my average suburban experience;

AP courses were for mostly for students who wanted to behave properly, learn the material and prepare for college.

Regular courses were overrun by disruptive students and mainly aimed at achieving a minimum passing score for the state exams.

These classrooms were two very different worlds.

Premeds belong in the AP courses.
Click to expand...

That was the same experience when I went to a public high school as well. The "regular" classes were usually filled with people that ended up on Jerry Springer or Maury, ones that were the best sources for drugs, or were having 2-3 babies....lots of preggos. There would almost always have a fight break out in class, which would lead to the hallways and some cheap entertainment!
 
gonnif said:
Am I the only one on SDN who went to school using a sliderule? Then of course I also learned programming on punch cards! Hell, I'm some old we used have to get up and change the channel
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Holy crap...remember this size of those computers? They practically took up the whole freaking room! And the punch cards...omg!

I just remember being so upset that my Mom wouldn't/couldn't spring for a calculator. The price of damn calculator was almost as much as the cost of one quarter at UCLA. :arghh: I only needed it for that one class, so there was no way for me to to justify the cost.
 
gonnif said:
Am I the only one on SDN who went to school using a sliderule? Then of course I also learned programming on punch cards! Hell, I'm some old we used have to get up and change the channel
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I will admit to both of those myself, my computer class featured ticker tape not punch cards and slide rule training was there but the new cool thing was HP or TI calculators.:prof:
 
gonnif said:
When my niece, who is only 7 years younger than me, saw her friend's calculator in 8th grade it was $300 bucks and barely had any advanced functions. For her 11th grade physics class, I got her some off-brand calculator that did about everything . It was under $25 bucks.
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That much of a price difference in only 3 years? Also is she applying to medical school XD Are you advising her?
 
gonnif said:
Am I the only one on SDN who went to school using a sliderule? Then of course I also learned programming on punch cards! Hell, I'm some old we used have to get up and change the channel
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We could be twins, although I remember getting a Texas Instruments calculator my jr year of high school and that was special!!!
 
gonnif said:
Am I the only one on SDN who went to school using a sliderule? Then of course I also learned programming on punch cards! Hell, I'm some old we used have to get up and change the channel
Click to expand...

I too learned programming on punch cards! Well actually learned about programming on punch cards... during a field trip... at a museum
 
Most students don't know they want to do medicine until later. Therefore, not taking AP courses for that reason is rather a poor choice. I believe taking AP courses for the challenge/academic rigor is still advisable.as it prepares high school students for collegiate level coursework.
 
DrHart said:
No offense but this is exactly the terrible mindset that plagues the pre-med community. Sacrificing your intellectual curiosity and opportunities to learn for the sake of staying in the slow lane to buff your GPA. One upper level math class will not kill you. Nor will upper level English. And if you are a science major afraid of taking upper level science, you picked the wrong career.
In my opinion, the benefit of AP classes is not the additional credit your college grants, its the faster pace and increased difficulty that prepares you better for courses in college. Whether or not medical schools accept AP credit should not factor into a high school students decision to take AP classes.
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Wholeheartedly agree. And the same mindset exists all the way up. In college, there will be the people who take the bare minimum pre-requisites and then dilute the rest of their schedule with extremely easy classes. Then, when you actually get into medical school, there are people who have the mindset (at least in pre-clinical years) that everything that isn't memorizing First Aid is a waste of time. You see this sort of opinion on the medical student forums here pretty often, and I don't like it.
 
DrHart said:
No offense but this is exactly the terrible mindset that plagues the pre-med community. Sacrificing your intellectual curiosity and opportunities to learn for the sake of staying in the slow lane to buff your GPA. One upper level math class will not kill you. Nor will upper level English. And if you are a science major afraid of taking upper level science, you picked the wrong career.
In my opinion, the benefit of AP classes is not the additional credit your college grants, its the faster pace and increased difficulty that prepares you better for courses in college. Whether or not medical schools accept AP credit should not factor into a high school students decision to take AP classes.
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Just as an aside, my best students are nearly uniform in agreeing that they love learning. And it shows...this year's class of OMSIIs (well, ~60% of them for whom we have data) are destroying both COMLEX and USMLE.
 
gonnif said:
I am so old I used to watch TV by candlelight
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Aww hell, at least we had electricity! 😛

The real question is when did you get your first color TV? My grandmother bought the one in our family in the early 60's and it was like magic watching the door open in Wizard of Oz or Sunday night viewing Walt Disney Wonderful World of Color on it!
 
Ok, probably not nearly as old as goro or gonnif, but I do remember our TV only had 13 channels and I had to get up to change them.

I always recommend taking AP classes as they help prepare you for more rigorous work. They screwed me over freshman year, but I have no regrets - even if they keep me out of med school this year.
 
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