DISCUSS: New DO schools...

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Goro said:
At my school, we've been able to dodge that bullet. BUT, other schools are already having to do that.

There's a point where the kids with such lower stats will either:
A) struggle in med school
B) and/or fail out of med school
C) and/or fail COMLEX

Once you go below 500 on the MCAT, it's not good for success.

Also, as of right now, we're seeing schools that do NOT fill their classes, especially the newest ones.

Do you guys see medicine heading down the same path as law/pharmacy or are board exams/residency overall a big enough filter to prevent that from happening?

I believe that the MD world can avoid this trap, but not the DO world. At some point, the accreditors will step in and force schools to reduce their class sizes, or In'sha Allah, close the weakest schools.
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What are your thoughts on implementing a "step 2 style" scoring system for the MCAT, where you still get a numerical score but must achieve a passing score (say 500) to qualify for matriculation into medical school?
 
friedchickencurry said:
What are your thoughts on implementing a "step 2 style" scoring system for the MCAT, where you still get a numerical score but must achieve a passing score (say 500) to qualify for matriculation into medical school?
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If medical schools can see the score what's the point? I agree that 500 should be a baseline for all medical school admissions, last one that has done a special Masters program
 
Goro said:
At my school, we've been able to dodge that bullet. BUT, other schools are already having to do that.

There's a point where the kids with such lower stats will either:
A) struggle in med school
B) and/or fail out of med school
C) and/or fail COMLEX

Once you go below 500 on the MCAT, it's not good for success.

Also, as of right now, we're seeing schools that do NOT fill their classes, especially the newest ones.

Do you guys see medicine heading down the same path as law/pharmacy or are board exams/residency overall a big enough filter to prevent that from happening?

I believe that the MD world can avoid this trap, but not the DO world. At some point, the accreditors will step in and force schools to reduce their class sizes, or In'sha Allah, close the weakest schools.
Click to expand...
Not holding my breath. You’d know better than me of course so correct me if I’m wrong. But I don’t think that COCA has ever closed a school. I think it’s had class sizes reduced and at least indirectly caused some admin at underperforming schools to turnover.

But they still rubber stamp every VCOM and Touro distant metastasis—I mean innovative institution of medical education that sets up in the middle of nowhere with no plan for clinical rotations.
 
dochopeful2025 said:
501 mcat recommended for a brand new school 🤯
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That is the reality these days. We've reached DO saturation. The average MCAT score among DO matriculants has been dropping for the past three years. The average is now 502.97. You can bet there are a bunch of people who got in with MCATs below 500.
 
Mr.Smile12 said:
Xavier University medical school advances to next stage of accreditation - Xavier Now | Xavier University Xavier University medical school advances to next stage of accreditation
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I'm astonished that Xavier is getting into this game. Ohio already has a relatively cheap, well regarded and huge osteopathic medical school at Ohio University. For Ohio residents the tuition is just over $42,000 per year. To be a competitive applicant at Ohio U, you only need an MCAT of 504. This is crazy. How will Xavier attract capable students?
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
I'm astonished that Xavier is getting into this game. Ohio already has a relatively cheap, well regarded and huge osteopathic medical school at Ohio University. For Ohio residents the tuition is just over $42,000 per year. To be a competitive applicant at Ohio U, you only need an MCAT of 504. This is crazy. How will Xavier attract capable students?
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I'm not sure either, but Cincinnati is close to Kentucky and Indiana, so maybe sweep up people who didn't get into Pikeville or Marian??? I think they have done well on their own with health care training, even with UC in their neighborhood.
 
Mr.Smile12 said:
I'm not sure either, but Cincinnati is close to Kentucky and Indiana, so maybe sweep up people who didn't get into Pikeville or Marian??? I think they have done well on their own with health care training, even with UC in their neighborhood.
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Pikeville? What do you think the average MCAT score is at Pikeville? Is it even 501? A hospital administration program and a good nursing school at Xavier won't mean much to applicants. I can't wait to see the tuition at Xavier.
 
Mr.Smile12 said:
I'm not sure either, but Cincinnati is close to Kentucky and Indiana, so maybe sweep up people who didn't get into Pikeville or Marian??? I think they have done well on their own with health care training, even with UC in their neighborhood.
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Xavier is private (Catholic and HBCU) so may not have in-state bias
 
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Obnoxious Dad said:
Xavier in Cincinnati is not an HBCU. You are confusing it with Xavier of New Orleans.
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The new candidate med school IS in New Orleans and associated with Ocshner. It's also an MD school candidate, not DO school.
 
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wysdoc said:
The new candidate med school IS in New Orleans and associated with Ocshner. It's also an MD school candidate, not DO school.
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There is a Xavier New Orleans (MD) AND a Xavier Cincinnati (OH). Not discussing the Caribbean Xavier...

Applicant & Candidate Programs | LCME

lcme.org lcme.org
osteopathic.org

Accreditation decisions for colleges of osteopathic medicine – June 2025

CHICAGO–The American Osteopathic Association’s Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA) announced accreditation decisions at its June 10, 2025, meeting. The COCA is recognized by the United States Department of Education as the accreditor of colleges of osteopathic medicine...
osteopathic.org osteopathic.org
 
Objectively, there's 40,000 PGY-1 spots in the Match and 28,600 US MD+ DO seniors. Adcoms of SDN: do you broadly feel that the number of US MD + DO seniors should grow to meet the number of residencies (which is what the new US schools are hoping to do), or is international FMG talent pivotal to overcome a shortfall of qualified US candidates?
 
A224B said:
Objectively, there's 40,000 PGY-1 spots in the Match and 28,600 US MD+ DO seniors. Adcoms of SDN: do you broadly feel that the number of US MD + DO seniors should grow to meet the number of residencies (which is what the new US schools are hoping to do), or is international FMG talent pivotal to overcome a shortfall of qualified US candidates?
Click to expand...

Read
www.studentdoctor.net

Ten Years of Data: The Truth About U.S. Residency Slots for MD and DO Graduates

In 2013, experts warned of a looming shortage of residency slots. Ten years later, the numbers tell a different story: the U.S. still has more PGY-1 positions than MD and DO graduates, but specialty bottlenecks remain.
www.studentdoctor.net www.studentdoctor.net
 
Maidenless?? said:

The Valley COM in Pheonix, AZ has received pre-accreditation. I couldn’t find information if they’ll start taking applications this year though.
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That will make 4 MD and 3 DO schools.

I suspect that there are only so many talented pre-meds in the United States who can handle medical school, and the newer MD schools are definitely scraping the bottom of that barrel.
 
Goro said:
That will make 4 MD and 3 DO schools.

I suspect that there are only so many talented pre-meds in the United States who can handle medical school, and the newer MD schools are definitely scraping the bottom of that barrel.
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5 DO schools opening this year, if you also include LECOM Jacksonville and LMU-DCOM Jacksonville.
 
I will say I find Valley COM a bit weird. Most new schools that are about to be approved usually get articles or even a press release. Valley COM feels like it came out of nowhere.
Even today, searching for news comes with few results.
 
Goro said:
At my school, we've been able to dodge that bullet. BUT, other schools are already having to do that.

There's a point where the kids with such lower stats will either:
A) struggle in med school
B) and/or fail out of med school
C) and/or fail COMLEX

Once you go below 500 on the MCAT, it's not good for success.

Also, as of right now, we're seeing schools that do NOT fill their classes, especially the newest ones.

Do you guys see medicine heading down the same path as law/pharmacy or are board exams/residency overall a big enough filter to prevent that from happening?

I believe that the MD world can avoid this trap, but not the DO world. At some point, the accreditors will step in and force schools to reduce their class sizes, or In'sha Allah, close the weakest schools.
Click to expand...
They will find something in primary care even if it takes a couple time to pass the board. As far as paying back loans, even PCP these days can make 400-500k/yr without killing themselves. We will just have to wait to see if AI will put a monkey wrench on that.
 
I wonder if we are going to start to see a lawyer-esque split. Stay tuned for my wild speculation:

You're gonna have a bimodal physician scale - the bottom end (the "public defenders and brief writers") will be heavily augmented by AI and make similar to an NP. These new DO and MD schools who admit anyone a-la pharmacy schools will find their grads in these roles.

Then you'll have the higher end docs who work at hospitals that heavily take private insurance and cater to a higher clientele. Similar to large law firms, you'll see them making what we make now. All the proceduralists are going to be here, as let's be real no robot is taking out a gallbladder unsupervised within the next 15 years.

That being said - I've seen AI in a clinical setting. I do not think it's actually any better or different than the higher end chat bots from years ago. We are a ways away from prime time. The "AI prescribing" happening right now is quite literally a computer following the same script as the MA in my clinic who can refill meds "per protocol". There's no critical analysis or machine learning here.
 
thumbz said:
I wonder if we are going to start to see a lawyer-esque split. Stay tuned for my wild speculation:

You're gonna have a bimodal physician scale - the bottom end (the "public defenders and brief writers") will be heavily augmented by AI and make similar to an NP. These new DO and MD schools who admit anyone a-la pharmacy schools will find their grads in these roles.

Then you'll have the higher end docs who work at hospitals that heavily take private insurance and cater to a higher clientele. Similar to large law firms, you'll see them making what we make now. All the proceduralists are going to be here, as let's be real no robot is taking out a gallbladder unsupervised within the next 15 years.
Click to expand...
It has already happened (though not sure with the AI augmentation). Look up conceirge medicine, and how many "big name" health institutions have such a program that is meant to be a health insurance perk for those in a high C-suite position.

Also, many medical students train PA's, and the PA vs. NP scope boundary is a source of significant discussion and debate.
 
I worry less about the PA/NP thing - there are threads dating back to the mid 2000's on SDN talking about how the sky is falling and in 10 years we will all be replaced by NPs. They're breeding themselves out of jobs - I have yet to meet a new grad NP who didn't continue working as an RN for some amount of time post graduation while they looked for a job. The PA's have it a little easier but not much. We won't hire an NP who doesn't have at least 2 years of experience and I'm in BFE. Maybe an NP + AI will replace us, but I doubt it. There's always going to be a sweatshop that will take a new grad, but even those are harder to find.

Totally agree on the concierge medicine side though - although as of right now (in my shop at least) our concierge team isn't paid any differently than a PCP. So it's a perk that exists for patients, but hasn't changed the actual job for the doc.

Any idea if people compete for these jobs in other shops? That's the direction I see us going - certain jobs are going to become way more competitive, almost similar to what the NP/PA folks are experiencing now.

There's an equally reasonable chance in 10 years we will come back to this thread talking about how nothing has changed and I'll be referencing it about how the sky did not fall.
 
It is obvious that the new MD schools will snatch up stronger applicants that might have ended up at good DO schools. The new DO schools will struggle for qualified applicants, but the new MD schools likely will not. At least not yet.
 
TwoDogMed said:
It is obvious that the new MD schools will snatch up stronger applicants that might have ended up at good DO schools. The new DO schools will struggle for qualified applicants, but the new MD schools likely will not. At least not yet.
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MD will always be competitive. They won’t have lower standards just because they are new MD
 
Goro said:
THREE in one city?????????
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3 DOs + 6 MDs = 9 total medical schools in the Chicago metro. In comparison, the NYC metro (largest metro in the US) has a total of 13 MD/DO schools. Chicago metro population: 9.3 million. NYC metro population: 19.5 million.
 
Maidenless?? said:
3 DOs + 6 MDs = 9 total medical schools in the Chicago metro. In comparison, the NYC metro (largest metro in the US) has a total of 13 MD/DO schools. Chicago metro population: 9.3 million. NYC metro population: 19.5 million.
Click to expand...
Jeeze, LA just has what, four or five?? That would be counting Irvine, and the population is 12-18 million.
 
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