I'm just now starting my Psy.D. but looking way ahead. After racking up some debt through the course of the program, it seems like a postdoc would just prolong the process of digging out of the hole. My wife and I will be wanting to have kids and a house by then. But I'm very interested in neuropsych and health psych. I've seen that most posdocs make around 30-40k. How does this compare to what you would make your first couple of years after your internship without doing a postdoc? On top of becoming board certified or specializing in a certain area, what are some of the additional benefits of doing a postdoc? Do these justify waiting another two years after nine years of schooling to finally begin the career?
Discussing Postdocs
- Thread starter Chase3557
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A postdoc can prolong the process to making some real money - only about 23% of us decide to go for the formal postdoc route (APA Stats). However, if you want to do neuropsych or health psych, you should really consider what postdoc training can give you, ESPECIALLY neuropsych, which most neuropsychologists to be competitive in the job market do a 2 year postdoc through the Neuropsych Match system, similar to internship. The other benefits to postdoc is that it is more stuctured, and there is additional training, in addition to guarenteed supervision hours for licensure. Typically on postdoc you have didactics, grand rounds, various rotations within the specialty area, and other learning opportunities to help you become a well-rounded practitioner in whatever specialty you are going for so that you are well prepared for this specialty in the real world. Additionally, what I have noticed on my post-doc interviews, is that most of the people working there and interviewing you were once post-docs there themselves. Often times, it can lead to a full-time position following the post-doc.
I am currently pursuing a postdoc in health psychology, and I am just not feeling confident enough in my competencies as a practitioner to begin in a health psych job without any prior training besides the little I received on internship. I think it really depends on your background and previous training in the area too, if you choose to pursue postdoc. Does it justify it? That's up to you. But I think that is why so many people decide not to pursue post-doc is they are not interested in specializing in any particular area, and the money issue. Some of us are just ready to get on with our lives.
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Post-docs are becoming nearly mandatory (if you wanna have a clinical job), mostly because of the way state licensing laws work. About 10 states have gotten rid of the post-doc hours requirement, but there is still gonna be gap betwen completing internship and actually getting licesed, even if the state has no post-doc hours requirment. Regarding the other 40 states...who would employ you if your not licensed yet (which means they can bill for most things you do) and need 1500 hours post-doctorally before you can? Not many people/organizations. The VA will though. You get "supervision" and have two years to get yor licensed if you come into an entry-level staff position. BOP does this as well. Some private practices will do this too, but you your stipend that first year wont be much over 30k in most of those situations. So, those are your options.
Oh, and obvioulsy, if your npsych, then a 2 year post-doc really is required.
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Agree with essentially everything shutterbug has said. To remain competitive for the areas you've mentioned (particularly neuropsych), a formal postdoc is quickly becoming a requirement, and is necessary if you wish to pursue boarding. In addition to the benefits mentioned by shutterbug (e.g., more formal supervision and didactics, networking, job opportunities), it can be easier to "bank" your credentials after having completed a formal postdoc, and can also make the licensure process easier (or so I've heard).
In terms of earnings, honestly, I'm not fully sure. Based on what little salary data I've checked into myself, the first year of the postdoc is slightly below what you could expect to make in a position that would hire an unlicensed psychologist. The second year is likely where the larger earnings disparity would arise, although I don't know just how big the disparity would be. I'd imagine it in part depends on the type of contract you signed while unlicensed, many of which seem to be less-than-favorable. I can definitely say that salary is one of the reasons I ranked the neuro postdoc to which I matched so highly.
Using the VA as an example, I believe they pay unlicensed psychologists somewhere in the $40-50k/year range, with most/possibly all of their postdoc positions paying a similar amount.
In terms of earnings, honestly, I'm not fully sure. Based on what little salary data I've checked into myself, the first year of the postdoc is slightly below what you could expect to make in a position that would hire an unlicensed psychologist. The second year is likely where the larger earnings disparity would arise, although I don't know just how big the disparity would be. I'd imagine it in part depends on the type of contract you signed while unlicensed, many of which seem to be less-than-favorable. I can definitely say that salary is one of the reasons I ranked the neuro postdoc to which I matched so highly.
Using the VA as an example, I believe they pay unlicensed psychologists somewhere in the $40-50k/year range, with most/possibly all of their postdoc positions paying a similar amount.
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Not quite. GS-11 start at 57k and change (range 57-66). Post-docs pay starts at 43K (range 43-51).
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I want to "ditto" all of your responses so far. If you know you want to specialize in a particular area of psychology, then you should do a postdoc. Neuropsych practically requires a 2-year experience that meets the Houston Guidelines. I suspect that by the time you cross this bridge, health psych (my current postdoc area) will have more stringent requirements as well (boarding being more typical, more experience needed to compete for jobs, etc.).
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Nice to know they're paying very early-career psychologists even better than I'd expected.
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Sadly...that isn't a lot of money. You can make $55k-$60k+ coming out of undergrad with an engineering degree. 🙁
There is no way around the 2yr post-doc if you want to do neuropsych (or rehab psych). Boarding may be more up in the air...but even that is becoming more of a requirement. Most/All NP positions i have seen include a requirement of, "Boarded or Board Eligible"....which means you need a 2yr Houston Guidelines fellowship.
There is no way around the 2yr post-doc if you want to do neuropsych (or rehab psych). Boarding may be more up in the air...but even that is becoming more of a requirement. Most/All NP positions i have seen include a requirement of, "Boarded or Board Eligible"....which means you need a 2yr Houston Guidelines fellowship.
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Oh, don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying $57-66k/year will make you independently wealthy (although obviously someone could do worse), just that it's more than I thought the VA would pay an unlicensed psychologist. In my case, I turned down an informal/friendly offer that, I'm guessing, would've possibly paid me about twice that in order to go the formal postdoc route following internship. Sigh.
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prelicense? How would that even be possible?
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It was a lot of work in a very niche area combined with a successful and well-established practice. I'd also imagine that if that were actually the first year's salary, it'd include what would've essentially been a signing bonus. Ultimately, though, I'm thinking the numbers very well could've been averages of the first couple years (i.e., the first year might be in the more typical salary range, with a significant uptick after licensure).
Then again, at this point it's all conjecture on my part, as I never went very far, or got very formal, in the discussions.
Nice! Great information everyone. Another thing, would a formal postdoc open doors in any academic positions? Although I'm going the Psy.D. route, which of course is not the way you need to go if you want to teach at a research institution, I would like to someday work at a smaller teaching university while practicing.
Hey erg. What's BOP? haha. I don't know the lingo.
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Federal Bureau of Prisons
Sanman
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I agree with most of what was said. However, outside the VA system most post-docs make $30-40k and jobs make $40-50k. Personally, I chose to forgo a fellowship in behavioral medicine. There were multiple reasons for this. The first being that there are not that many fellowships and I just did not see myself moving away from my family and too far from my gf for a year. Second, fellowships usually start in June-August. My internship got out late (September), I took some time to finish my dissertation and I would have had to wait 6-8 months to start a post-doc. I had concentrated on behavioral medicine, neuropsych, and geriatrics almost exclusively throughout my training and did the same things as the fellow on my gero psych and oncology rotation (6 mos). I have also done pain management, transplant evaluations, pre-surgical evals for gastric bypass, penis pumps, etc, and my dissertation is in a newer cutting edge area related to cardiology. All of this put me in a strong position for jobs in health psychology and I was offered multiple private practice and nursing home jobs. All of those jobs were behavioral medicine positions. I also have standing job offers after I am licensed for starting salaries in the $70-80k area from time interviewing. As I plan to work in health psychology, I do still plan to pursue board certification and pursue further education in pain management. I would have loved to be able to do a fellowship in pain management, but it isn't in the cards.
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Hi everyone! I just matched for internship, and I'm already thinking about the next step. I was wondering what you all think about going APPIC vs. non-APPIC routes. Are there particular advantages to either? Can you apply to some of each? - it seems like timelines are slightly different, so I wasn't sure.
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What area are you looking into?
There's no part of the APPIC process that prohibits you from applying to non-APPIC sites, so in essence, you're potentially significantly limiting yourself if you don't at least look into both options (i.e., APPIC and non-APPIC). The advantages to APPIC are that it's centralized, provides a uniform notification date, and provides a series of rules by which programs (and applicants) must abide. The downside, of course, is having to wait until the UND to hear back.
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I'm reviving this thread hoping for feedback on post-docs. I'm currently at an internship site where, traditionally, those who wish to continue in this agency do not complete formal post-docs but instead seek out staff psychologist jobs immediately after internship. I plan to do the same, getting supervised hours for licensure during that first year or so. I'm wondering if I'm being too short-sighted about this, though. Are there any drawbacks to not completing a formal post-doc? Again, I will have supervised hours for licensure, but I'm wondering if I will have any reason to regret not taking the traditional post-doc route later on. I do not have an interest in neuropsych. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts/experiences.
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It really depends on the area you are speaking about. The biggest thing to check out is whether the place you get your hours is able to provide you with enough clients to get you licensed in an expedient manner. So sense in dragging out unlicensed pay scale. It may also delay or hinder board eligibility. Also make sure that they meet the requirements for state licensing obviously.
A license is not required at this level for the agency, so the pay scale is decent since it's a regular staff psychologist position. Based on my internship experience thus far, hours are most likely not a problem. Board eligibility is something I am concerned about, and I'm confused about what this all means for state licensing. I'm not aware of states that require a formal post-doc position. Am I wrong about this?
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I don't think there are any states that require it, it's just a vehicle to get the licensed supervision needed in that specific case. As others have said, I'd be thinking more about board eligibility. So, if you're looking to get boarded in any specialty specifically, check their reqs.
If you are willing to work for the DoD or live in NM or LA, I would complete my post-doc in psychopharmacology. As a prescribing psychologist, I am currently making about $150/hour seeing 2 patients every 60 minutes. If you have a lot of debt or a family to support, this is a great route and there is massive demand
