disgruntled

[dontwakeme]

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My friend attends a 2nd tier school and I've noticed a very large disparity in difficulty between our science courses. I saw his chemistry midterm and practically all of the questions simply involved plugging in numbers and solving for a variable (e.g. given this wavelength, calculate the frequency). The average is usually in the 80's. I could answer every question with ease. Suffice to say, he easily has an A in the class. On the other hand, my exams involve more conceptual, difficult questions that do not simply involve plugging in numbers to solve for a variable. The average is usually in the mid 60's. As a result, I have a B+. I may attend a top 25 school, but I can't help but think that his 4.0 BCPM GPA will look much better than my ~3.3.

I don't want to sound anal or stuck up, but I really think it's unfair. I mean he attends a fairly respectable school, yet his exams are something that my younger brother (who is a high school sophmore taking a general chemistry high school course) could ace.

 

[Vox Animo]

things like that varied just as much from professor to professor at my old undergrad.

 

[baylormed]

My friend attends a 2nd tier school and I've noticed a very large disparity in difficulty between our science courses. I saw his chemistry midterm and practically all of the questions simply involved plugging in numbers and solving for a variable (e.g. given this wavelength, calculate the frequency). The average is usually in the 80's. I could answer every question with ease. Suffice to say, he easily has an A in the class. On the other hand, my exams involve more conceptual, difficult questions that do not simply involve plugging in numbers to solve for a variable. The average is usually in the mid 60's. As a result, I have a B+. I may attend a top 25 school, but I can't help but think that his 4.0 BCPM GPA will look much better than my ~3.3.

I don't want to sound anal or stuck up, but I really think it's unfair. I mean he attends a fairly respectable school, yet his exams are something that my younger brother (who is a high school sophmore taking a general chemistry high school course) could ace.

It sounds to me like you are blaming your 3.3 on the difficulty of your classes, and saying your friend's 4.0 it's not worth anything because you *think* his school is easier. Get off your high horse.

I also wish Rafa was here to post that photo of the dead horse. And congrats on your second post. Troll.

 

[NervousNed]

thats just the way it is, not fair, but thats why they made the mcat, to level things out

 

[dontwakeme]

It sounds to me like you are blaming your 3.3 on the difficulty of your classes, and saying your friend's 4.0 it's not worth anything because you *think* his school is easier. Get off your high horse.

I also wish Rafa was here to post that photo of the dead horse. And congrats on your second post. Troll.

This is exactly why I was hesitant to post this in the first place. I'm not a troll, I'm just venting. How can I not be the least bit upset about this? Yes, life's unfair blah blah blah, but I still have the right to complain.

 

[jonathon]

Here is a little secret about the real world that MOST undergraduate students don't understand.

In the real world your exam scores mean ZERO, NOTA, Zilch.

Get over yourself. All undergraduate institutions teach the same material (the basics of all subjects). So what if your exam might have been a little different (being more difficult) then yours, you both still were taught the same basic material. If you want to blame your 3.3 GPA on having to take harder exams then the average student, then transfer to the average student type of college and get your 4.0, ok!

My friend attends a 2nd tier school and I've noticed a very large disparity in difficulty between our science courses. I saw his chemistry midterm and practically all of the questions simply involved plugging in numbers and solving for a variable (e.g. given this wavelength, calculate the frequency). The average is usually in the 80's. I could answer every question with ease. Suffice to say, he easily has an A in the class. On the other hand, my exams involve more conceptual, difficult questions that do not simply involve plugging in numbers to solve for a variable. The average is usually in the mid 60's. As a result, I have a B+. I may attend a top 25 school, but I can't help but think that his 4.0 BCPM GPA will look much better than my ~3.3.

I don't want to sound anal or stuck up, but I really think it's unfair. I mean he attends a fairly respectable school, yet his exams are something that my younger brother (who is a high school sophmore taking a general chemistry high school course) could ace.

 

[bananaboat]

This is exactly why I was hesitant to post this in the first place. I'm not a troll, I'm just venting. How can I not be the least bit upset about this? Yes, life's unfair blah blah blah, but I still have the right to complain.

let it all out. i hear similar venting at my school (univeristy of toronto).

but keep in mind, i don't think getting a 4.0 ANYWHERE is a walk in the park. so i don't think you should you assume if you were at your friend's institution, you'd be getting that 4.0.

 

[StudentDRoNET]

thats just the way it is, not fair, but thats why they made the mcat, to level things out

Yeap, do well on your MCAT or your screwed 😀

 

[souslepont]

Remember that things should change when MCAT time rolls around. He's not likely to score very well if his classes haven't prepared him, now is he?

 

[hermit]

@dontwakeme

The fact that your class average is 60 and your professor isn't handing D's out to half of the class at the end of the semester tells me that he is adjusting your grades. Which is completely normal. And also means that if you got a B, a notable portion of the class performed better than you did on exactly the same material. Do you honestly expect your professor to give your entire class As because they all did better than kids at some other school?

 

[Andromeda]

Dontwakeme: I HEAR YA!
I can study my a$$ off and still fail a physics I exam at my UG institution. but when I take physics II at an "easier" school, I get an A+ and it is a walk in the park. But where it matters most is the MCAT.

As premeds, do we care what the grades will be like in 5 years? We will if we still haven't gotten accepted to med school! ha.

My sincere congrats to those with the 4.0s. Of course, the rigor and stress of achieving such an accomplishment is not easy.

 

[bananaboat]

Remember that things should change when MCAT time rolls around. He's not likely to score very well if his classes haven't prepared him, now is he?

what happened to the mcat tests BASIC sciences? if this is the case, i doubt the friend would have any great advantage. critical thinking/reasoning skills are def necessary, but i think they can be developed outside of undergraduate classes.

my courses taught me way more than was ever required of me on the mcat. sure i may have had some advantage on the bio section...but doesn't that go for most bio majors?

 

[streetlight]

**** that. i think it's fair to bitch. we have cross registration at my school with another school - and taking a course down the street is SIGNIFICANTLY easier than taking the same course at my school...and i may or may not be talking about mit and harvard

 

[univscience]

 

[DrShambach]

pure comedy.

 

[souslepont]

what happened to the mcat tests BASIC sciences? if this is the case, i doubt the friend would have any great advantage. critical thinking/reasoning skills are def necessary, but i think they can be developed outside of undergraduate classes.

my courses taught me way more than was ever required of me on the mcat. sure i may have had some advantage on the bio section...but doesn't that go for most bio majors?

I'm just trying to tell the OP something positive...we'll find out once they take it, I suppose 😀

 

[akademiks1989]

Why don't you transfer to his school and quit bitching. I assure you, you will get the same grades.

 

[cclawfjj]

just out of mere curiosity, which school do u attend?

 

[Tunn3lVision]

 

[HumbleMD]

You're allowed to be somewhat upset. However, a 4.0 anywhere is still an accomplishment. Also don't discount grade inflation at your own institution. I attend a top 25 school as well and have noticed some high curves (to B- averages, or even B+ in Honors courses😱 ). But, as much as many will say on SDN, rest assured that attending a top undergrad does earn you a few brownie points in the med school admissions process (if people say different they're fooling themselves... and probobly attending a lower tier school). A word of warning though. You'd be better off boosting that 3.3, it will be a killer, as a 3.5 is quite necessary to get you an interview at top programs - remember the unfortunate truth that there are always those folks who can get good MCATs and 3.8+ GPAs, even at top, "tougher" UG schools. Best of luck in your future application.

 

[dontwakeme]

waste of time...I shoulda've known that I'd get raped for making a post like this.

Thanks anyway to the people who provided helpful advice.

 

[Vox Animo]

waste of time...I shoulda've known that I'd get raped for making a post like this.

Thanks anyway to the people who provided helpful advice.

What advice were you looking for?

reread your post.

 

[SilkandSteel]

Hey OP, I am with you all the way. The difficulty disparity is most definitely and unfortunately true. Baylormed, he's not saying that his friends' 4.0 isn't worth anything, and neither am I, but it's definitely worth less than a 4.0 at a harder institution.

But the good news is that med schools DO recognize this. At my school, the advising center has a book on every student from our university that got into med schools and their stats, and generally their gpa's are, on average, a bit lower than the school's nationwide average gpa for admitted students. We get a bit of a break. Maybe not the difference between a 3.3 to a 4.0, but a significant bump.

Also, as other posters have mentioned, a challenging curriculum pays off in better MCAT scores. And don't forget better research opportunities and higher faculty-to-student ratios which help us obtain better letters of rec.

It's the risk we take. But honestly, I think it pays off.

Cheers.
~Silk and Steel

 

[DrZeke]

waste of time...I shoulda've known that I'd get raped for making a post like this.

Thanks anyway to the people who provided helpful advice.

I don't think there is anything wrong with your post. Just ignore people. Never expect sympathy about what you said on SDN, it won't just fly. You have too many people at various schoools, and some people who have overcome horrible situations that it's hard for them to feel bad for you.

I understand. My UG blew chunks and basically when I had a talk with an adcom director this morning he said he thought I was at a disadvantage compared to other students of my state of residence, because of the lack of guidance I received at my institution. Whatever... I don't regret anything, but sometimes, just like you, I get frustrated. Of course, not over the same thing, it's stupid to worry about those around you. I guess I mostly take the responsibility of not being more independent as an undergrad, and more proactive until later in my education... Of course you could argue that at some schools you are handheld and I didn't have that luxury, but I don't like that argument. I accept that I had no choice of where I went to school, and that I was in a certain situation, and that I am responsible for where I am now 🙂.

My point. Just accept your fate, and remember to breathe. Ignore your friends grades and concentrate on your own studies.

 

[ChadC]

I don't want to sound anal or stuck up, but I really think it's unfair. I mean he attends a fairly respectable school, yet his exams are something that my younger brother (who is a high school sophmore taking a general chemistry high school course) could ace.

It's not unfair. Your friend is smart enough to recognize that the GPA is more important than where it came from. If you knew you wanted to go pre-med before you picked out your school than that's your mistake.


BTW: There are no chemistry exams at a "respectable school" that a highschool kid could ace.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

My friend attends a 2nd tier school and I've noticed a very large disparity in difficulty between our science courses. I saw his chemistry midterm and practically all of the questions simply involved plugging in numbers and solving for a variable (e.g. given this wavelength, calculate the frequency). The average is usually in the 80's. I could answer every question with ease. Suffice to say, he easily has an A in the class. On the other hand, my exams involve more conceptual, difficult questions that do not simply involve plugging in numbers to solve for a variable. The average is usually in the mid 60's. As a result, I have a B+. I may attend a top 25 school, but I can't help but think that his 4.0 BCPM GPA will look much better than my ~3.3.

I don't want to sound anal or stuck up, but I really think it's unfair. I mean he attends a fairly respectable school, yet his exams are something that my younger brother (who is a high school sophmore taking a general chemistry high school course) could ace.

You really need to get out more often.....there are far more important things to worry about. 🙄

 

[DropkickMurphy]

By the way, you sound both anal AND stuck up.....just so you know.

 

[PeripateticMD]

This is a funny post. I knew of an ivy league where getting below a B was almost impossible (much harder than my undergrad, there it was easy to get C's)... the classes may have been harder, but there was no way to do too badly... unless you were a real f*** up. Med schools have some idea of what undergrads we go to, I wouldn't worry about it. And if you're that worried about it, and have time to post about it, go study. Seems like there's a lot you have to do...

 

[airshad8]

I go to a state school and have friends who go to a private 'prestigious' school nearby. From physics to orgo to biochemistry, my exams have always seemed tougher. Not only that, but none of my classes ever scaled, theirs did. If anything their school had large grade inflation. As you can see, OP, all the ad hom going on on this thread aside, there are many exceptions. Just because you go to a more prestigious school doesn't mean its tougher for you than the lowly second tier kids. It really DOES depend on the professors. You should use such things as ratemyprofessor.com to pick your professors next time, and gauge the difficulty before going in. That is probably the only 'helpful' advice you are going to get on this thread: Prepare yourself, don't complain.

 

[szhao]

lol, stop complaining, do better, done. feeling sorry for yourself rarely get you better grade

 

[paranoid_eyes]

in your eyes, what exactly is a tier 1 and a tier 2 school???

 

[braluk]

Medical schools have the mean averages and all statistics when it comes to students from your UG applying for medical school. My premed advisor provided these stats for us, and I believe overhearing that they are also provided to medical schools- they would like to see where you rank in relation to other students in your program of study. Thus, if the difficulty is as drastic as you say it is, there should be plenty of other students who have markedly lower GPAs than that of their 4.0 counterparts in other second tier schools. If your GPA is a 3.3 at a school with a avg premed GPA of 3.4-3.5 then maybe your 3.3 isnt SO BAD after all. If your friend's UG has a premed avg of a 3.8, then suddenly his 4.0 isnt so significant. School averages and where you stand in relation, as many tend to forget, factor into a GPA analysis. Not to mention, how well known your school is to churn out doctors, have competitive premed programs- its reputation, as another poster had said, does have a contribution, albeit not a groundbreaking one. Why do you think certain medical schools have almost a certain "legacy" with specific undergraduate institutions, even if a formal link is not officially established?

Think of it this way- if you got a B in a school with the most competitive and difficult science program in the country, versus getting an A in an unknown school with not much (relatively speaking) of an established history, dont you think that your B might raise less questions than that of the A? My advice is: stick to your guns and raise your gameplay, you can complain on these boards, but only if you do it right. No one likes people who whine (especially on an "anonymous" forum) because you might be treading on other people's toes. Instead, had you asked it as a genuine question, and asking for users' inputs versus coming in here with your guns blazing while not being an established known user, you may have had a better response. Good luck with everything, and keep on truckin!

 

[staticsoliloquy]

Dude, you guys are mean. Everyone on this board bitch. And if you don't bitch on this board, you do it to your friends. If you don't like what he has to say, just don't reply. Don't waste your time, typing out unsupportive sentences. It's not worth his effort to read it, and it's not worth yours.

I completely sympathize with the OP. The Bio Core at Stanford is infamous, but if one survives it with straight B, one will most likely get into the the best graduate schools. My '06 friend who goes to Princeton now for graduate school in virology got straight B's in the Bio Core.

To the OP: at the end of the day, you get the satisfaction of knowing that you learn so much more than your friend at said school. My friend goes to Seattle University and his bio classes is an exact replica of my AP Biology class in high school. They don't even go into the amazing structure of ATP synthase. Some of these people are right when they say that we both are learning the same material, but I have to say, I'm learning the same material in greater detail than he is.

 

[sotired]

waste of time...I shoulda've known that I'd get raped for making a post like this.

Thanks anyway to the people who provided helpful advice.

man, everyone is so quick to jump all over this guy. having graduated from a top-ten undergrad and taking half of my premed courses there, taking summer school at harvard (bio), and finally, completing the final two premed prereqs at a less prestigious public schoool - i saw the difference he's referring to first hand.

at my undergrad institution (which is notorious for lacking the 'grade inflation' that some ivies have the rep for, which some of you mentioned) , the premed courses were ridiculously hard, the exams incredibly tricky, and the "A" seemed virtually impossible to achieve. during my post-bac, while the classes were by no means a cakewalk, the "A" seemed much more feasible as the exams were straightforward and rewarded those who studied hard.

if the exams from my postbac were given at my undergrad school, there's no doubt more than 70% of the class would have aced them. it seems that the tougher the institution is, the more hardworking, dare i say smarter?, the students are and hence the exams must be harder because otherwise the bell curve would be ruined and everyone would just get an A.

 

[ADeadLois]

My friend attends a 2nd tier school and I've noticed a very large disparity in difficulty between our science courses. I saw his chemistry midterm and practically all of the questions simply involved plugging in numbers and solving for a variable (e.g. given this wavelength, calculate the frequency). The average is usually in the 80's. I could answer every question with ease. Suffice to say, he easily has an A in the class. On the other hand, my exams involve more conceptual, difficult questions that do not simply involve plugging in numbers to solve for a variable. The average is usually in the mid 60's. As a result, I have a B+. I may attend a top 25 school, but I can't help but think that his 4.0 BCPM GPA will look much better than my ~3.3.

I don't want to sound anal or stuck up, but I really think it's unfair. I mean he attends a fairly respectable school, yet his exams are something that my younger brother (who is a high school sophmore taking a general chemistry high school course) could ace.

Don't worry about things you can't control. Taking more challenging exams will help you down the road with the MCAT. There is so much disparity among colleges and even WITHIN colleges regarding exam difficulty it's not worth getting in a fuss over.

 

[jon stewart]

cry me a river.......👎

So if you think your tests are harder and they are more conceptual, then thats the best thing that could happen for you because when it comes to mcat time, you would have understood everything and you will show a higher score hopefully?

It also varies on the professor, as im sure some have already said.

Just suck it up, the process isn't perfect, just work it to your advantage.

 

[TexasFool]

I´d rather take the more difficult class and prepare for the difficulty of grad or medical school later on, but it is true that some schools have very low standards. My second school (not baylor) had low standards and the problem that creates is that more people have high GPAs than normal which makes it more difficult to stand out, but there were a few really hard classes.

 

[foofish]

things like that varied just as much from professor to professor at my old undergrad.

👍 In the Chem department where I did my postbac, there was always a hard and an easy professor teaching different sections of the same class....and we're talking incomprehensible insane exams with material coming out of nowhere compared to a prof whose exam questions were exactly the same as the practice exams he'd give out in advance. I was an idiot and took the "hard" professor.....and you know, it totally, totally sucked, but I worked hard and did just as well as my friends with the easy prof, but I definitely knew the material which made future semesters/classes/the MCAT all the easier. You've made the choices you've made, and now you just have to kick your butt and do well, it's not the end of the world.

 

[8744]

Hey, I had a ridiculously easy series of organic chemistry courses. Not only that but the instructor and I both collected military rifles and shot on the same rifle range occasionally. I pretty much got an A with no effort whatsoever, not to mention that the instructor did not believe in grades and gave all of the people who were "pre-med" an A for a minimal amount of work.

I studied but let's just say after the first test I wasn't under a lot of pressure and maybe didn't hit the books as hard as the OP. It showed a little on the MCAT were I pretty much marked "C" to most of the organic chemistry questions and just moved on. But I believe that only one quarter of the questions on one third of the test were organic chemistry, I knew a few, and the rest didn't seem like something I was supposed to have learned so it probably didn't matter.

What's the moral? Only that sometimes the dice favor you and sometimes they don't. I was prepared for the worst but caught a lucky break. Then I reinforced my luck by making sure I took all of my organic classes with that professor. The OP needs to transfer. Medical school admissions is a process, a means to an end, and you need to maximize your chances.

 

[8744]

...My friend attends a 2nd tier school .....

I object to the term "2nd Tier." I did my undergraduate work (Civil Engineering) at two widely disparate types of universities, The University of Vermont and Louisiana Tech (as 2nd tier as you can get) and noticed no appreciable difference in the quality of the instruction, the difficulty of the material, or my grades. All you got at UVM was a more picturesque campus and a lot more celebration of diversity but that was about it.

Not to mention that UVM was five times as much in-state as Louisiana Tech.

 

[SilkandSteel]

Um, no offense, but since when is the University of Vermont top tier?🙄

I think that when the OP, and pretty much everyone else on this thread, says top tier they mean top 10, or at least top 25.

~Silk and Steel

 

[crimsonkid85]

**** that. i think it's fair to bitch. we have cross registration at my school with another school - and taking a course down the street is SIGNIFICANTLY easier than taking the same course at my school...and i may or may not be talking about mit and harvard

so true.

 

[foofish]

The OP needs to transfer. Medical school admissions is a process, a means to an end, and you need to maximize your chances.

Riiight....because transferring to an "easier" school just so the OP doesn't have to study an extra hour or two a week is going to look fantastic on that med school application.

 

[ChadC]

Um, no offense, but since when is the University of Vermont top tier?🙄

I think that when the OP, and pretty much everyone else on this thread, says top tier they mean top 10, or at least top 25.

~Silk and Steel

Nothing says "I'm a complete douche who's way too into myself to go to a public school and save my parents 20k a year!" like going to a "top tier university".

👍

 

[ChadC]

Dude, you guys are mean. Everyone on this board bitch. And if you don't bitch on this board, you do it to your friends. If you don't like what he has to say, just don't reply. Don't waste your time, typing out unsupportive sentences. It's not worth his effort to read it, and it's not worth yours.

You'd rather give the OP false hope?

My friend goes to Seattle University and his bio classes is an exact replica of my AP Biology class in high school.

Is your friend a biology major? Do they offer a bio course for science majors and another for non-sci majors?

 

[8744]

Um, no offense, but since when is the University of Vermont top tier?🙄

I think that when the OP, and pretty much everyone else on this thread, says top tier they mean top 10, or at least top 25.

~Silk and Steel

It was, although maybe they don't use this term anymore, one of the "Public Ivies." And it sure has heck had higher admission standards than, say, Louisiana Tech.

Funny story: My wife and I were both kicked out of UVM in the early eighties for bad grades (But we both went back and made good). When I transferred to Lousiana Tech my wife went with me to my meeting with my advisor to discuss which credits would transfer. They didn't want to give me credit for a couple of engineering classes because they weren't sure about the quality of the instruction and my wife said, "Look, we've been kicked out of better schools than this one."

 

[8744]

Um, no offense, but since when is the University of Vermont top tier?🙄

I think that when the OP, and pretty much everyone else on this thread, says top tier they mean top 10, or at least top 25.

~Silk and Steel

There are, what, 4000 colleges and universities in the United States? That's an awfully big "second tier." I understand that grade inflation was (and maybe still is) rampant in the Ivy League. At Louisiana Tech the College of Engineering didn't give a rat's ass if you failed out and graded accordingly.

 

[8744]

Riiight....because transferring to an "easier" school just so the OP doesn't have to study an extra hour or two a week is going to look fantastic on that med school application.

Nobody will care. "I moved to Hoboken and switched colleges" is a completely unremarkable statement. It's obviously more than an hour a week.

There are so many variables involved that I believe it is impossible for anybody to rate a school as "easy" or "hard."

If the OP is getting Cs at Yale but could get As at Sisterboff University of the Ozarks he'll probably have a better chance at medical school at the latter.

 

[SilkandSteel]

Nothing says "I'm a complete douche who's way too into myself to go to a public school and save my parents 20k a year!" like going to a "top tier university".

👍

Wow, that was incredibly uncalled for.

And for the record, I actually think it says "I did well enough in HS and on my SAT's to get into a great school, with a good financial aid package to boot. And, while I'm asian, which means my parent's would happily pay 70k more a year to send me to an even marginally better school, they had to pay about 5k more a year instead."

And even if my parents payed 20k more a year, who the heck are you to judge? That's our decision. If they were willing to do it, and thought it was worth it, then why is that even remotely a bad thing?

So chill.

Personally, I know plenty of people that chose less-expensive schools due to financial reasons, and I applaud them for it. I know that, being smart, they will be very successful in life, and a less prestigious college will not hold them back. But my decision to choose a more expensive university is no less valid. Maybe it's an asian thing, but I think that it's worth it. With parents that were denied the right to an education for many years due to the Cultural Revolution, we feel that not getting the BEST education we can possibly afford is inexplicable. Maybe it's a bad investment... perhaps the difference in return isn't as big as the difference in the cost... but we don't see education as an investment. We're not rational like that.😉

My two cents.

~Silk and Steel

 

[SilkandSteel]

Oh and Pandabear, I guess the term "2nd tier" is misleading. I was just using it as "not top tier," as opposed to "second rate." I guess I'd divide US colleges into top tier, very good, good, most colleges, and podunk community colleges. That's probably pretty subjective, but I think that when most people say "top tier", the impression is at least top 25 or so.

And I did not know about University of Vermont. Now, and around when I applied, it's down to like the 80's. Which is perfectly respectable, just not what I considered "top tier". But you're right, it was probably different back when you were in school.

~Silk and Steel