I was just recently dismissed from CSPP's PsyD program after my third year due to a severe drop in my grades. I had a 3.6 up until my second year and due to extreme situational circumstances beyond my control, I ended up failing 2 courses. My mistake was lack of proper communication with my professors and my internship supervisors. At my practicum, my work was above average, however I was terminated early from my 1st year internship. They were kind enough to sign off on my 700 hours, but I was pre-terminated. At a SERC meeting, I was given an opportunity to request a one year leave of absence in order to deal with all the personal issues (death, end of an abusive relationship) and request a return for the following year. They gave me a 1 month deadline to complete the paperwork for my leave of absence and I failed to turn it in on time. I admit how unprofessional and irresponsible it shows me to be, but I was still dealing with a great deal of trauma. I was then sent a letter of dismissal and when appealing the decision, it was denied. I'm currently seeing a therapist and trying to resolve the residual effects of the abuse I dealt with, however I am clueless as to what to do as far as reapplying goes. I want nothing more than to return to school, however, I'm not sure what my chances are of being accepted anywhere with a dismissal on my record. Any advice??
Dismissal from CSPP's PsyD program
- Thread starter Sandy65
- Start date
I am sorry you had to deal with this.
I don't know if this is relevant to you, but many students have been unfairly dismissed from professional programs later in their training. Many of these schools (argosy) commit this type of fraud because they want to admit a large cohort size, take your money, and then dismiss students before internship so that they can help their stats. Some students have written about this practice online through argosy reviews. http://www.onlinedegreereviews.org/...reviews/clinical-psycology-1821/reviews/#2685
I would consider consulting with an attorney if you feel you have been unfairly treated since you paid for 3 years of graduate school and then were dismissed (they shouldn't get away with taking your money like that) In my program, dismissal is only given in very extreme circumstances. Typically, students are given several warnings and have chances to remediate their problems (e.g. psychotherapy etc). You seem to have many valid reasons for your poor performance. Were you given warnings? Were you given an opportunity to remediate?
The only warning I was given was the requesting that I write a "letter of withdrawal" with a 3 week deadline. True, I missed my deadline, but I feel to dismiss me altogether from the program after 3 years is somewhat harsh. My appeal letter explained the circumstances and the letter of denial just reiterated the deadline I missed to turn in my withdrawal letter. I actually came across the argosy's students being dismissed as well. I feel because my grades did drop below what is expected in order to stay in the program, they have the upper hand. I feel stuck and dont want to waste my time applying anywhere when I feel my application will just be denied off the bat
Let me point out that I explained the circumstances of my grades and the 0.00 gpa was not because I took the course and failed it. They failed to withdraw me because I missed the deadline and instead decided to keep me enrolled in classes I not once attended. Yet, they failed to give me any warning during the period where I presented some concern to them.
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2011
- Messages
- 213
- Reaction score
- 7
Before you get into any more hotwater, edit your post to remove the proper names. Think.
I don't know your situation exactly, but if you had a documented emergency situation/death, then this seems rather unethical and potentially illegal. What does your student handbook state? Examine this carefully. Does it say that you get dismissed after X grade in 2 classes no matter what? Does it state anything about warnings or grievances? Does it state anything about exceptions to this rule for deaths/emergencies?
I would honestly consult with an attorney at this point. That is your best bet. If you start another PsyD, you will have to start all over anyhow. You paid probably around 60K in tuition already, consulting with an attorney won't cost much and can get you back into the program. Sometimes these programs get really scared when they hear from an attorney. All you may need is 1 letter from an attorney and they may re-consider. Plus, you are seeing a therapist and she can back you up if needed. I wouldn't let the school get away with this type of potential abuse of students. At this point, what do you have to lose? Why start over and lose 3 years without trying to do something?
I didn't see your post when i wrote the above.
The letter says that you were on probation for a while. Plus, the school and your internship gave you guidance on what to do to improve your performance, which you didn't do. They also state that you didn't comply with your internship guidelines and were dismissed from there, and failed comprehensive exams twice. It seems like you were given opportunities to improve. Why didn't you withdraw from the class or inform the school of the emergency situation instead of failing to attend?
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2009
- Messages
- 69
- Reaction score
- 0
PerhapsMaybeOk, ever since you've joined this forum you've been fairly snarky and unforgiving, don't you think?
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2006
- Messages
- 22,597
- Reaction score
- 4,850
Posting the letter on a public forum is generally not a great idea, so the advice isn't off the mark.
If the letter is accurate, then they seemed to have several reasons to dismiss you that are consistent with university policies.
I would spend time in therapy before jumping into another doctoral program. I would also stay away from professional programs in the future because they don't seem too invested in helping their students graduate.
I would spend time in therapy before jumping into another doctoral program. I would also stay away from professional programs in the future because they don't seem too invested in helping their students graduate.
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2011
- Messages
- 519
- Reaction score
- 582
I tend to agree with 2012. Seems like you had multiple warnings along the way and didn't even get your appeal in on time. That absolutely sucks to be in your situation but from their perspective, it looks like you gave up on them.
I would keep up with the therapy and consider volunteering somewhere. You have a huge black mark on your vita. Work on showing schools that you can be responsible and follow through. Nothing will display that better than solid volunteer research or practice.
I would keep up with the therapy and consider volunteering somewhere. You have a huge black mark on your vita. Work on showing schools that you can be responsible and follow through. Nothing will display that better than solid volunteer research or practice.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2008
- Messages
- 8,141
- Reaction score
- 8,382
Edit: Okay, was that snarky. Sorry.
I agree that this will be a huge red flag to admissions committees.
I agree that this will be a huge red flag to admissions committees.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2008
- Messages
- 643
- Reaction score
- 10
I just finished my PhD at CSPP, SD and did so faster than my cohort.
Guys...come one..this has nothing to do with Alliant being a Professional School. They are as vested in students completing as any funded program and they need the good stats on completion as well.
The only problem are the admission standards, if you catch my drift.
OP, sorry for your troubles, but you've got to try pretty hard to get ejected from an Alliant Psy.D. That's the cold hard truth.
You could apply to Fielding. I don't mean that as a quip...they actually take people who bounced out of CSPP.
In any case, good luck, much improvement in health, and get back on the horse...or find a cow
Guys...come one..this has nothing to do with Alliant being a Professional School. They are as vested in students completing as any funded program and they need the good stats on completion as well.
The only problem are the admission standards, if you catch my drift.
OP, sorry for your troubles, but you've got to try pretty hard to get ejected from an Alliant Psy.D. That's the cold hard truth.
You could apply to Fielding. I don't mean that as a quip...they actually take people who bounced out of CSPP.
In any case, good luck, much improvement in health, and get back on the horse...or find a cow
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2011
- Messages
- 213
- Reaction score
- 7
Sandy65, isn't it quite disconcerting that you have time to post this on a public forum, yet you do not have time to fill out some paperwork to avoid being removed from your program? Again, think. Don't just feel.
D
deleted176373
It's ok to be snarky when you are right.
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2010
- Messages
- 671
- Reaction score
- 21
I realize the OP is already owning up to his/her responsibility in this, but I just wanted to state that the program's decision to terminate actually improves my view of them as a for-profit. If they were the bloodsucking money grubbers that I take them to be 😉, they could have easily continued to take the OP's (fed govt's) tuition money under the guise of chronic remediation knowing all too well that he or she would have serious issues getting an internship or licensed. Also, I am not sure that high attrition rates are much better than poor match/licensure rates.
In response to the OP's question about applying to other programs, I second the notion that he/she take some serious time off to work on their own emotional health. Now is not the time to even think about returning to school.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2008
- Messages
- 8,141
- Reaction score
- 8,382
Yeah, though I kind of smirked at them speaking for the profession in that dismissal letter.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2008
- Messages
- 643
- Reaction score
- 10
Keep snarking Cara, you're good at it
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2008
- Messages
- 8,141
- Reaction score
- 8,382
Why thank you! I've had years of practice 😉
Thanks everyone, I appreciate the feedback. The reason I failed to turn in the letter of withdrawal is for a couple of reasons. I was trying to get out of a dangerous and abusive relationship with a clear cut Antisocial P/D guy and even though my internship terminated me early, once I told them about my situational factors, they generously requested I return, but with fewer hours. Though I turned in my reports late, they were satisfied with the work.. just could handle the workload. With that, I informed CSPP, but they didnt seem to care about the situational factors. The other side of my resistancy came from the fact that at the SERC meeting they were already prepared to dismiss me. I pleaded for even the opportunity to request my leave of absence when in reality neither my internship nor my psychologist felt was a good idea. A modified schedule with fewer classes would present itself as more appropriate. Even with the leave of absence, they were not guarateeing my spot back after a year. The informed me that there could be a chance my spot may not be available. I suppose all of this together just made me bitter. Ive worked extremely hard to get where I was starting my G3 year, but I suppose I always figured if youre going to learn and grow from mistakes made, it would be as a student where you are given a chance to redeem yourself. I showed them all the documentation necessary to support my statement, but it made no difference.
D
deleted176373
I want to say first and foremost, this whole situation sucks for you, I can see that. That said, you need to look back carefully. You were not dismissed for a severe drop in grades, you were dismissed for a series of bad choices.
No one else is responsible for how things happened but you. The good news is that you know that now and you've learned an important life lesson. The bad news is that somethings in life are unforgiving... make bad choices when you jump out of a plane and you will likely smack the ground at 120 mph as opposed to landing under a parachute canopy. You not only removed the parachute when you jumped out of the plane, but it sounds like you pulled the rip chord after you took it off.
It's somewhat unlikely that you can continue to pursue your hopes of becoming a Psy.D. any time in the near future (at the very least), as these things tend to follow you around. Disclosing a dismissal from Alliant certainly will not help your case when applying to other schools and your story would have to be very compelling in order to get another school to consider giving you a chance.
I'm not telling you to give up either... I have seen stranger things happen regarding admissions. You might want to think about alternate career paths at this time, as I am sure that you will have student loans to pay back and other financial obligations to take care of. Best of luck.
I second this.
I'd like to add that even if you got into another program, when you apply for the appic internship match you have to disclose whether you have ever been dismissed from a program or practicum site. This on its own will hamper your ability to secure any accredited internship. Without an accredited internship these days, you are automatically out of most employment settings.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2010
- Messages
- 45
- Reaction score
- 22
I just finished my first year at CSPP's Chicago campus. My professors have always been upfront with us about how if you tell them if something is going on, they work with you, and how it is better to ask for permission than beg for forgiveness. I don't really think they were super out of line in what they did.
I would definitely spend time in therapy and work through all of this to ensure you are truly ready to go back and you will be able to keep up with your coursework/practicum responsibilities. If you have a successful treatment record, you might be able to plead your case if worse came to worse.
I would definitely spend time in therapy and work through all of this to ensure you are truly ready to go back and you will be able to keep up with your coursework/practicum responsibilities. If you have a successful treatment record, you might be able to plead your case if worse came to worse.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2008
- Messages
- 643
- Reaction score
- 10
You go to the Chicago School of Professional Psychology.
This thread is regarding the California School of Professional Psychology.
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2010
- Messages
- 1,548
- Reaction score
- 8
Dear Sandy,
I just want to say how sorry I am to hear about your situation. I am an abuse survivor and have worked with both survivors and perpetrators of domestic violence in community based organizations as well. Over the years I've found that most of the academics and therapists I have personally come across don't have a very good understanding of the dynamics of abuse and how living with such a situation pervades every other aspect of life. I have no doubt that if I'd been in graduate school when I was living with my situation, I would have had an outcome similar to yours.
I don't have any "advice" for the future, beyond self-care, and if possible therapy with someone well-versed in abuse issues. For me, becoming politicized around these issues and being involved in the battered women's movement was very healing as well. Although, as others have suggested, you may have difficulty being readmitted to your program or accessing other doctoral training in psychology in the future, when you feel better there may be other avenues open to you (such as an MSW).
I am sending you warm thoughts.
I just want to say how sorry I am to hear about your situation. I am an abuse survivor and have worked with both survivors and perpetrators of domestic violence in community based organizations as well. Over the years I've found that most of the academics and therapists I have personally come across don't have a very good understanding of the dynamics of abuse and how living with such a situation pervades every other aspect of life. I have no doubt that if I'd been in graduate school when I was living with my situation, I would have had an outcome similar to yours.
I don't have any "advice" for the future, beyond self-care, and if possible therapy with someone well-versed in abuse issues. For me, becoming politicized around these issues and being involved in the battered women's movement was very healing as well. Although, as others have suggested, you may have difficulty being readmitted to your program or accessing other doctoral training in psychology in the future, when you feel better there may be other avenues open to you (such as an MSW).
I am sending you warm thoughts.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2010
- Messages
- 1,548
- Reaction score
- 8
Another member above mentioned Fielding as a possibility to complete the doctorate. This was many years ago, before the internship crisis and other recent developments in the psych field, but I knew a woman who went to Fielding and has a successful private practice, as well as junior college teaching career. I don't know what the circumstances were that brought her to Fielding, or what her training was like, but she seemed very happy with the way her life turned out.
Could you elaborate on Fielding as an alternate direction to take?
Im fortunate that my internship signed off my 700 hours despite my pre-termination. Very understanding.. I actually met with my supervisors from my internship yesterday. They encouraged me to reapply to a different school (possibly out of state for safety reasons).. but I know my chances are slim to done.
Im fortunate that my internship signed off my 700 hours despite my pre-termination. Very understanding.. I actually met with my supervisors from my internship yesterday. They encouraged me to reapply to a different school (possibly out of state for safety reasons).. but I know my chances are slim to done.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2008
- Messages
- 643
- Reaction score
- 10
Fielding is a semi-online program that they call "integrative" or something lile that. Bassically, you'll meet once or twice a semester at an office building and have weekend long "executive format" courses...cramming long hours in.
Consultation groups are peer to peer...match rates are off the chart bad, its expensive, and there is no guidance to speak of. This is all based on what Fielding students have told me.
yet...if you are itnent on getting a doctorate no matter what, it is often a choice for people in less than desirable circumstances.
I only mentioned it as a possibility above because it is a route to obtaining a degree.
Consultation groups are peer to peer...match rates are off the chart bad, its expensive, and there is no guidance to speak of. This is all based on what Fielding students have told me.
yet...if you are itnent on getting a doctorate no matter what, it is often a choice for people in less than desirable circumstances.
I only mentioned it as a possibility above because it is a route to obtaining a degree.
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2011
- Messages
- 472
- Reaction score
- 117
...but also remember that Fielding is (as far as I know) -still- on probation and there is a chance that they lose APA accreditation. While opinions about the 'value' of a program being accredited may vary, it does help a lot in obtaining an internship etc
Hi there Sandy:
Have you considered the financial and employment costs of attending a school like fielding? They are on probation with the apa so you are unlikely to land an accredited internship and may never get licensed in many states. APA accredidation and now APA internships are becoming minimal criteria for entry level work in our field. If you don't believe me join a list serve for job postings. You will automatically be out of the VA system and military, plus the vast majority of jobs and post-docs. I just saw a job posting for a licensed psychologist for UCLA counseling and minimal required criteria included an apa internship and apa program. Given that you've already lost two years of training, why go to a school that is not reputable and may never lead to anything? Plus, the field is small and having a termination from a school and practicum on your record will also affect your ability to land an internship. You may have to also disclose this when applying for licensure. Now that the field is so saturated, any of these strikes against you will be devastating.
You will have a much easier time securing employment from a university MSW program than a Devry like institution. Both clients and professionals in the field of psychology do not look at fielding in high regard. By the way, i just randomly met someone who graduated from Sayerbrook 20 years ago and was begging me to send him clients and trying to sell his practice to me in a desperate manner. Because of the sayerbrook reputation and his lack of an accredited internship and program, there is no way i would send any referrals his way or get training from him in the future.
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2010
- Messages
- 1,548
- Reaction score
- 8
Great post, 2012. But isn't it "Saybrook" University (not that that in any way affects your good points about reputation and how it affects internship options)?
Sorry, Sandy, I apologize--I shouldn't have chimed in on the Fielding issue. The posters above know much more than I--one happy Fielding alum I knew socially over a decade ago isn't a sound basis for career suggestions, especially in this job economy. Good luck whatever you choose.
Last edited:
Funny you mention UCLA. I did my practicum at UCLA's Staff and Counseling Center. I actually did exceptionally well, but then again, that makes no difference since practicum hours dont really count for much. To be honest, Im lost with the very few choices I have. I just cant see myself going in any other direction than to get my doctorate in psychology, but with the competitive nature in the field, i may be pursuing this goal for a long time and still never achieve at accomplishing it. Im trying to think of different psych related activities I can get myself involved in, hoping to make my application stronger and also keeping me active. Feeling unproductive and in limbo of whats to come is extremely tough and Im just trying to get through while I see my therapist and attend support groups for domestic violence.
Do you really think so? I dont want to lose all hope, but I know its definitely not looking too good right now. On a plus note, I do have a good amount of letter of rec from various professionals in the field. I was a behavioral therapist working with autistic children 3 years prior to my acceptance to Alliant. Im just afraid those letters and my academic performance throughout my first year and a half only is all I have to offer. But thank u for the words of support.🙂
I wasn't saying you shouldn't go for the PsyD at all. But what is the point of getting a PsyD at at a crappy school and not getting an accredited internship? Most jobs won't even look at you from an unaccredited internship so i just think its a dead end. Even though you did a practicum at UCLA counseling, they still wouldn't take someone for employment there without an apa internship and apa program. This is becoming minimal criteria in our field in the past few years, even at counseling centers. My friend just applied for a counseling center position and she is licensed from a good APA program, completed an APA internship and she got rejected because they received over 100 applicants. People from unaccredited internships can't even apply for these positions. Schools like Argosy, fielding, saybrook, etc. are most likely going to leave you out of the vast majority of jobs for psychologists.
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2010
- Messages
- 1,548
- Reaction score
- 8
This is really terrible. I can see why so many people here at SDN are unhappy about the state of the field. If it weren't for SDN, I wouldn't know any of this. It really doesn't sound any better than the traditional academic job market, which is also abysmal.
Although there are numerous scamblogs exposing the grad school and law school scams, I haven't been able to find any scamblogs for psych/prospective therapists. I think someone should start one and get the word out!
Again, good luck, Sandy. I don't know about psych admissions but DO know a bit about MSW admissions. As someone above (can't recall who) suggested, I think you could, when you feel better, transform this situation into a compelling narrative to gain MSW acceptance, especially if you're a traditional aged student, and allow a little time to pass. I've reinvented myself more than once and have my fingers crossed that I have one more shot left.
Because APA is not doing much quality control, internships, post-docs, and the private sector are doing it themselves. I see APA Internship and APA program as required criteria to apply more and more each year. Universities and hospitals are flooded with applications so they can be picky about what they want. My licensed friends will probably find a job if they are willing to apply all over the country. Unfortunately, people get screwed once they finish their degree because there is no quality control from the onset (like in med school). This won't change until some disgruntled and unemployed PsyD's sue the APA.
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2010
- Messages
- 1,548
- Reaction score
- 8
OH god. Here's what some of our recent social science PhD grads are doing for work these days:
1. massage therapy
2. teaching yoga
3. exotic dance (aka stripping)
I don't think there is anything wrong or ignoble about any of these professions, but none require even a BA, much less doctoral training.
Sounds like MFT isn't much better either, with the slave labor unpaid internship crap.
The cohort ahead of me on internship were pretty much all able to land fellowships, but they all came from reputable funded PhD programs and this is an APA site. I know of other APA sites where several people were not able to secure post-docs and took on jobs from a previous career or were unemployed after. People who want to stay in CA or NYC do not fare as well on average.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2007
- Messages
- 10,827
- Reaction score
- 5,612
If you would be disappointed or angry if your daughter became a stripper, like most of us probably would be, then you actually DO think somethings wrong with it. Let's keep it real...🙂
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2010
- Messages
- 1,548
- Reaction score
- 8
uhhh...what? how do you know what my feelings about sex work are or should be? six of my friends are current or former sex workers, including hustlers. and one of my subfields is sexuality. i'm not saying i'm free of all possible prejudices; that just doesn't happen to be one of them. perhaps it's one of yours? i only brought it up because this particular friend, who enjoys her current work, is nonetheless disappointed that an R1 doctorate and a CV longer than a stripper pole have yielded no T-T offers in the current market.
and i've alluded to caregiving responsibilities elsewhere on this site, but they go the other way. i'm childfree, but take care of my elderly mother. at 82, i doubt she's going to be applying for dancing jobs of any sort...
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2010
- Messages
- 1,548
- Reaction score
- 8
oops--forgot one--it's actually seven (that i know of). anyway, i guess the larger point is: we're all getting screwed. i saw the discussion of the NYPD postdoc for $54,000/yr on another thread. that's only slightly less than what one of my tenured committee members makes after 10 years of loyal service to my swell university. and s/he's got an MPH in addition to the doctorate.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2007
- Messages
- 10,827
- Reaction score
- 5,612
I dont. However, it doesn't take a genious to know that most of us would propably not be happy if our daughter made that her career. I was simply admitting that, if I (and almost every father I know of) wouldn't want my daughter doing it, I must indeed harbor some sort of moral judgment about the profession. I was admitting to my own bias, I suppose.
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2010
- Messages
- 1,548
- Reaction score
- 8
In all fairness if we use the logic that if you wouldn't want to think of your daughter doing it then you must think it's morally wrong, then we'd have to conclude that most parents are against all forms of sex in general.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2008
- Messages
- 8,141
- Reaction score
- 8,382
I certainly wouldn't be happy if I had a PhD and had to strip to make ends meet, that's for sure.
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2006
- Messages
- 22,597
- Reaction score
- 4,850
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2007
- Messages
- 10,827
- Reaction score
- 5,612
You are correct. Guys with motivations to do ANYTHING ELSE with my daughter other than spoil her, treat her like a princess...and then have her home by 11pm are off limits. 😎
I know clinical PhDs who were bartenders during post-doc or worked as hostesses in fancy clubs. They earn really good money and its helped them supplement internship/post-doc income. Other people worked two jobs during intership/post-doc, but didn't make nearly as much as the bartenders and hostesses. I think for the hostess position you just have to wear a sexy outfit.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2008
- Messages
- 8,141
- Reaction score
- 8,382
See, bartending and hostessing are totally different from stripping. I wouldn't feel the need to lie to my parents about those jobs or have to compromise my beliefs to do them... I mean, unless some sketchy stuff went down.
