Dismissed From A Lab

[Algophiliac]

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I was not able to put in the required time, and I was dismissed from my current lab. I am hoping to find another one in the spring, but I am not sure how, since I was never put in the position of searching for a research lab...this was a chance occurence. In any case, the lab was about to end, so I would have had to leave at some point anyway. The main difference is that now I have lost an LOR writer, who before was thrilled with my quick return from a medical break.

I wish I were in perfect enough mental and physical shape to put in as many hours as everyone else into absolutely everything they do. I am already a sophomore, and feel as though it is too late to recover now. Short of taking the maximum allowed credits at my school every semester and receiving 3.9+, spending 20 hours a week in a research lab, 20 hours a week at a part time job, and spending time volunteering at a hospital, I am not sure if it is even possible (even with the above) to demonstrate, in less than 2 years, that I am fit for medical school.

Perhaps when they finally put me on medication for my physical issues, I can FUNCTION. What I mentioned above--should NOT be nearly impossible to accomplish.

Basically, what are my options? What do I do, when I can manage to do it?

 

[apumic]

Well... getting "dismissed" from a lab is not going to be seen positively by other PIs. I'd take a new student over one who got fired from another lab. That's life.

That having been said, all you can do now is ask. My suggestion would probably be to go back and repair the relationship w/ your previous PI because until you do that, no one else will probably take you (i.e., they're likely to ask the previous PI what you were like as an RA if they're in the same dept and/or know one another and if your previous PI says, "I let him/her go because s/he did not have the time to commit to my lab and generally took an exorbitant amount of time to get back to me with progress on every project I or one of my students gave him/her," the prospective PI isn't likely to say, "Ok! Let's give him/her another chance in my lab!").

My advice is to take this a step at a time. If the medical issues are preventing success, take a leave of absence. If you are able to succeed now, then do it. Grades come first, but after that, start working on the research thing. Repair that relationship ASAP as it could easily drag down any LORs from that dept if you don't do anything about it. Next, find another lab, get some clinical experience, ect.

 

[Algophiliac]

Well... getting "dismissed" from a lab is not going to be seen positively by other PIs. I'd take a new student over one who got fired from another lab. That's life.

That having been said, all you can do now is ask. My suggestion would probably be to go back and repair the relationship w/ your previous PI because until you do that, no one else will probably take you (i.e., they're likely to ask the previous PI what you were like as an RA if they're in the same dept and/or know one another and if your previous PI says, "I let him/her go because s/he did not have the time to commit to my lab and generally took an exorbitant amount of time to get back to me with progress on every project I or one of my students gave him/her," the prospective PI isn't likely to say, "Ok! Let's give him/her another chance in my lab!").

My advice is to take this a step at a time. If the medical issues are preventing success, take a leave of absence. If you are able to succeed now, then do it. Grades come first, but after that, start working on the research thing. Repair that relationship ASAP as it could easily drag down any LORs from that dept if you don't do anything about it. Next, find another lab, get some clinical experience, ect.

How do I repair this relationship? The PI made it clear in his dismissal e-mail that does not want me in the lab at any point in time. Would it not be better never to mention this lab, then, either for medical school admissions or future lab positions? It is a very inaccurate representation of my work, and I am beyond frustrated right now. I requested that my PI take me back after I returned from my medical break, and he did so, and I haven't demonstrated good enough results (and get this, only in terms of the hours I put in, my work when I do it is excellent!) for him to keep me. He is also leaving the country in a few weeks. Those of you with no medical issues, stop taking it for granted. 😡

I am not able to succeed now, but do I have a choice? If it's not now, or at least in the Spring, how can I ever fix this?

 

[rhesuspieces]

It would be extremely unfair of your previous PI to blacklist you from all other research assistant positions simply because you weren't able to dedicate an absurd amount of time to his lab. At my university, undergrad research assistants are generally expected to put in 10 hours a week, not 20! I would be honest and up front about your dismissal from the previous lab. It's better that a future PI hear the whole explanation from you than from your previous PI. Start sending out e-mails to prospective PI's, explain your situation, and be very clear about the amount of time you're willing to put in.

As far as being prepared for medical school goes...you're only a sophomore. I dealt with severe anxiety and depression my freshman year and didn't start any extracurriculars until November of my sophomore year. Now I'm a senior and I was just accepted into medical school.

My best advice: find a paying job in a research lab. You'll get research experience and an income. Kill two birds with one stone.

 

[Musclemass]

I haven't demonstrated good enough results (and get this, only in terms of the hours I put in, my work when I do it is excellent!) for him to keep me.

Sorry to hear of the issues you are dealing with, but I have to wonder where, in hindsight, the situation went south. What to do now and what to learn from it.

Did you have an up-front discussion with him to set mutual expectations? How much you could work, what he was expecting of you, what you could and couldn't do, what flexibility was needed, etc?

If so, did you meet the commitments you made?
If yes and he changed the game, you have an easy to explain situation. If not, hmmm, there's the problem.

 

[Algophiliac]

Sorry to hear of the issues you are dealing with, but I have to wonder where, in hindsight, the situation went south. What to do now and what to learn from it.

Did you have an up-front discussion with him to set mutual expectations? How much you could work, what he was expecting of you, what you could and couldn't do, what flexibility was needed, etc?

If so, did you meet the commitments you made?
If yes and he changed the game, you have an easy to explain situation. If not, hmmm, there's the problem.

My PI never specified exact hours necessary, so in those terms there was a great deal of flexibility, which can hurt me both ways, apparently. It seems as though it was my lack of availability that was the main issue. Some weeks I could be there for 20 hours (which was what he "preferred"), but there were weeks when I could not attend at all, or could only attend minimal hours. I am not faulting him for dismissing me, since there was no reason to keep someone who could sometimes make it 20 hours over someone who could always make it 20-30 hours a week.

I just...really don't know what to do now. Normally, I would have been the student making it to lab 20-30 hours a week, which is beyond frustrating for me.

 

[cfx]

I think you're being a bit dramatic here. Because you're not working in a lab as a sophomore, you won't have a chance at medical school? Come on.

There are plenty of people on this board who do not have 3+ years of research experience and are doing/have done perfectly fine. Look at ColeOnTheRoll, for example. I believe his MDApps profile says he has ~1 summer of lab experience, yet he has one of the most impressive interview lineups around. A good friend of mine did not have a second of lab experience (or clinical experience, for that matter) and got interviews (including Columbia and GTown). It's not the be-all-end-all for your application...just work on getting healthy and when you feel like you have the time to dedicate to it (even if it's not for another year or two), go for it.

If you want to get back in a lab now, just email people whose work interests you, and you'll eventually find someone. I highly doubt your last PI is going to "blacklist" you, or talk to single person about you...I'm sure he has bigger fish to fry. But if you're looking to get back into things right now, I'd be honest with them from the start and tell them what kind of hours you can do.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that it's absurd if your last PI wanted you to do 20-30 hours/week, as a student and an unpaid volunteer. I usually did ~12-15 and that was above and beyond what my PI expected.

 

[Musclemass]

Sounds like the problem would have been avoided had you gotten initial agreement with him concerning your schedule. And then continued to clearly communicate your time availability and any changes consistent with that up-front discussion.

Put yourself in his shoes - you were a no-show.

Though it's possible, I doubt his anger comes from your not working like a slave week after week. You didn't focus his expectations, so he had what he had, and you failed to meet them.

Learn from it.

 

[Algophiliac]

Sounds like the problem would have been avoided had you gotten initial agreement with him concerning your schedule. And then continued to clearly communicate your time availability and any changes consistent with that up-front discussion.

Put yourself in his shoes - you were a no-show.

Though it's possible, I doubt his anger comes from your not working like a slave week after week. You didn't focus his expectations, so he had what he had, and you failed to meet them.

Learn from it.

I never said any of this, and I completely agree with you. I am not frustrated with him, only with myself. This was not a topic to rant about my PI, but a general what do I do question. Obviously, nothing extreme now, because of my health, but I am worried that this hole is too deep already.

cfx, thank you for the reality check. SDN can make me feel ridiculously stressed sometimes.

 

[WorldChanger36]

20 hours a week? You were getting jacked. The lab I work in requires 3 hours for every credit hour of DIS/research taken. In other words I am only required to do 6 but out of interest I do about 9 to 10 each week.
To fix the situation go directly to the PI that dismissed you and tell them what issues you had. Then ask him/her if there is any way you can fix it. Be apologetic and take credit for mistakes, remember after all you are an undergrad and learning about how to fix screw up needs to be high on the list and more people respect an undergrad that screw up admits it asks for help then fixes it.
1 to 2 years of research is plenty. Publications are not required either but they are very nice. Remember no one expects you to know anything yet. Publications are for the grad school boys and girls, but if you a chance at one grab it.

 

[WorldChanger36]

SDN can make me feel ridiculously stressed sometimes.

People suck some times but in reality everyone is here to learn about what it take to be a doc ( or other field). Most people are just as green as the next. While some have great advice, others are just being dicks and/or are clueless and just acting like they know some thing. Kind of like most of the freshmen at the pre-med society.

 

[rhesuspieces]

I think you're being a bit dramatic here. Because you're not working in a lab as a sophomore, you won't have a chance at medical school? Come on.

There are plenty of people on this board who do not have 3+ years of research experience and are doing/have done perfectly fine. Look at ColeOnTheRoll, for example. I believe his MDApps profile says he has ~1 summer of lab experience, yet he has one of the most impressive interview lineups around. A good friend of mine did not have a second of lab experience (or clinical experience, for that matter) and got interviews (including Columbia and GTown). It's not the be-all-end-all for your application...just work on getting healthy and when you feel like you have the time to dedicate to it (even if it's not for another year or two), go for it.

If you want to get back in a lab now, just email people whose work interests you, and you'll eventually find someone. I highly doubt your last PI is going to "blacklist" you, or talk to single person about you...I'm sure he has bigger fish to fry. But if you're looking to get back into things right now, I'd be honest with them from the start and tell them what kind of hours you can do.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that it's absurd if your last PI wanted you to do 20-30 hours/week, as a student and an unpaid volunteer. I usually did ~12-15 and that was above and beyond what my PI expected.

Epic 👍.

There's too much emphasis put on being a "well-rounded" applicant. Many pre-meds spread themselves so thin between research, community service, clinical volunteering, shadowing, AND pulling good grades that they end up coming up short in all of those areas.

Pick an activity that you feel passionate (maybe that's research, maybe not) about and dedicate 10-15 hrs a week to it. Add ~3 hrs/week of volunteering (pretty easy to fit in). A couple times a year find a doc to shadow for a full day. Work full time in the summers if you need the income, but give yourself a break during the school year.

It's possible to be a great med school applicant and still have a fun, rewarding undergraduate career (cue uplifting music here)!

 

[Avoidthetiger]

I agree with the above poster about trying to find a paying research job.

From my middle of freshman year to end of junior year I had a work-study research job off-campus that I would make once a week from 3-10hours, were I basically analyzed work. It wasn't very "researchy" but it helped everyone else and I got paid... and I was labeled a "research assistant" which is nice to add to my resume. I would try to find something similar, were you can come in on your own time and just analyze work (as long as you are getting paid). I can't imagine committing so much time to research as well as having fulltime classes and a part-time job... hell, I have a hard time doing 20 hours a week as a grad student with only 2 classes (but that's partly because of all the interviews I have been going to).

 

[Evergrey]

Epic 👍.

There's too much emphasis put on being a "well-rounded" applicant. Many pre-meds spread themselves so thin between research, community service, clinical volunteering, shadowing, AND pulling good grades that they end up coming up short in all of those areas.

Pick an activity that you feel passionate (maybe that's research, maybe not) about and dedicate 10-15 hrs a week to it. Add ~3 hrs/week of volunteering (pretty easy to fit in). A couple times a year find a doc to shadow for a full day. Work full time in the summers if you need the income, but give yourself a break during the school year.

It's possible to be a great med school applicant and still have a fun, rewarding undergraduate career (cue uplifting music here)!

Agreed. In fact, I would add that spreading one's self thin between many pursuits is the antithesis of a well-rounded applicant!

 

[WorldChanger36]

Epic 👍.

It's possible to be a great med school applicant and still have a fun, rewarding undergraduate career (cue uplifting music here)!

I find this quite uplifting..... Damn need a decent scifi show on TV again...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPn-lTytfGo

 

[45408]

I wish I were in perfect enough mental and physical shape to put in as many hours as everyone else into absolutely everything they do. I am already a sophomore, and feel as though it is too late to recover now. Short of taking the maximum allowed credits at my school every semester and receiving 3.9+, spending 20 hours a week in a research lab, 20 hours a week at a part time job, and spending time volunteering at a hospital, I am not sure if it is even possible (even with the above) to demonstrate, in less than 2 years, that I am fit for medical school.

Get a grip, holy crap. What is the freaking rush? If you can't take the heat, get out of the oven. Life will go on if you stretch this out for another year to make it realistic without burning out.

Well... getting "dismissed" from a lab is not going to be seen positively by other PIs. I'd take a new student over one who got fired from another lab. That's life.

You'd take a new student [who left their previous firing off of their resume] over a student who had been fired [who was dumb enough to include it on their resume].

 

[apumic]

Get a grip, holy crap. What is the freaking rush? If you can't take the heat, get out of the oven. Life will go on if you stretch this out for another year to make it realistic without burning out.


You'd take a new student [who left their previous firing off of their resume] over a student who had been fired [who was dumb enough to include it on their resume].

haha...well, I guess at least the former had the common sense to leave it off. Honestly, though, I meant more in terms of what other faculty had said. Most depts in small to mid-sized universities are small enough that a full time professor is likely to get to know all the other faculty and probably also know many of the students who do research. When I see I'd take a new student over one I knew was dismissed from another lab, I mean I'd take a new student that I'd gotten to know in class and who seemed like a good fit over someone I knew but then heard had been booted from a colleague's lab (the latter, I'd definitely speak with the other faculty member about first).

 

[afugazzi]

The PI kind of sounds like a jerk. You are young and have plenty of time to work in labs. I would leave this one off the resume (because you don't want anyone calling the guy up to ask for a reference) and start fresh.