Dismissed. What are my options?

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Decussation

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I've been dismissed during my first year for academic reasons. I'm not here to feel sorry for myself, I just want to know what career options I have now. I know I want to stay in healthcare (or research if that isn't an option), and want some sort of graduate degree. What other healthcare fields would consider accepting someone who's been dismissed from medical school? I'm planning on taking some time to work and figure out what I want to do, but I'd like to have an idea of what's even possible. Thanks.
 
IlDestriero said:
Accelerated nursing program to NP or CRNA.
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Oh hell no. The only way Healthcare is borderline tolerable as a profession is if you're in the pilots seat and are the one with the knowledge. I can't imagine why anyone who just wants a daily grind chooses Healthcare to do that in. OP, I highly suggest you open your mind up to other industries.
 
atomi said:
Oh hell no. The only way Healthcare is borderline tolerable as a profession is if you're in the pilots seat and are the one with the knowledge. I can't imagine why anyone who just wants a daily grind chooses Healthcare to do that in. OP, I highly suggest you open your mind up to other industries.
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Some people actually enjoy human physiology and pathology, and taking care of patients.
 
atomi said:
Oh hell no. The only way Healthcare is borderline tolerable as a profession is if you're in the pilots seat and are the one with the knowledge. I can't imagine why anyone who just wants a daily grind chooses Healthcare to do that in. OP, I highly suggest you open your mind up to other industries.
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Just because it's not for you doesn't mean it's not for anyone else too... I am surprised a "medical resident" can still hold this self-centered view.
 
PA! That's my back up plan. I've met some who love what they do and are afforded a great deal of autonomy. Plus the salary isn't bad- mean income for full-time PA's is over $100K, with potential for growth. Great job market. Forbes called a PA degree the #1 most employable master's degree, and Glassdoor just called it the best job in America. So there's that. It's as close to being a doctor as you can get without med school.
 
GoKingsGo said:
PA! That's my back up plan. I've met some who love what they do and are afforded a great deal of autonomy. Plus the salary isn't bad- mean income for full-time PA's is over $100K, with potential for growth. Great job market. Forbes called a PA degree the #1 most employable master's degree, and Glassdoor just called it the best job in America. So there's that. It's as close to being a doctor as you can get without med school.
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Agreed. If you must stay in healthcare, it's a decent option. The idea that RN school is the logical backup for a failed MD attempt is asinine.
An even better plan, if he wants to stay in healthcare, is understand what went wrong and try to fix it and get his school to let him contine. Flat out dismissing somebody before first year is over for grades without any remediation options is pretty unheard of. Chances are the doors for continuing as an ms2 aren't totally shut, but it's something worth considering as its still possible to recover financially from just one year of med school. Unless there's more to the story.
 
atomi said:
My bad, I forgot NPs and CRNAs have a deep knowledge of human physiology and pathology and passion for patient care.
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- don't recall using the word deep or other descriptor to indicate mastery
- you can find satisfaction with a good-great understanding of human disease without being the master of that subject
- some NPs have an excellent grasp of pathophys. Wait until you interact with experienced ICU NPs or PAs then come back and tell me how little they know
- CRNAs have a very good understanding of physiology. Our dismissal of CRNAs is part of the reason our anesthesia colleagues are suffering
- your argument is similar to saying a primary care doctor can't be doing their job because of their interest in diabetes or CHF etc because they don't have as "deep" of a knowledge base as a specialist in that field (eg endocrinologist or cardiologist)

Bottom line: physicians are (theoretically) the ultimate authority on managing human diseases but don't fool yourself by thinking we are the only profession with any significant understanding.

I say theoretically because some American medical students/residents and attendings have a surprising lack of understanding of basic human physiology and pathology. At least to someone with critical care training they certainly come across as scary.
 
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atomi said:
The idea that RN school is the logical backup for a failed MD attempt is asinine.
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If/When he fails out of PA school he will be in the same position with no career. Very few people wash out of medical school, so if he was a sure thing academic superstar we wouldn't be commenting in this thread.
If he goes to nursing school, he can always be a nurse if CRNA school or NP school are delayed or don't work out.
Accelerated nursing can be done in as little as a year, one to two more years for experience to apply to CRNA school and 2.5-3 years after that he's making >$150k working 3 12s.
Maybe not so asinine after all...
 
IlDestriero said:
If/When he fails out of PA school he will be in the same position with no career. Very few people wash out of medical school, so if he was a sure thing academic superstar we wouldn't be commenting in this thread.
If he goes to nursing school, he can always be a nurse if CRNA school or NP school are delayed or don't work out.
Accelerated nursing can be done in as little as a year, one to two more years for experience to apply to CRNA school and 2.5-3 years after that he's making >$150k working 3 12s.
Maybe not so asinine after all...
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Maybe not, but he or she clearly did well in college. Hence my suggestion to consider other industries. The reason you stated for pursuing RN is virtually the same reason every RN I know did it. Short path to stable middle class employment with few barriers to entrance. In the end a bright person's career path should be more than just trying to lock in income. And yeah, I bet getting into PA school is not going to be easy after being kicked out ms1. Try to get back in med school and if impossible, bail on healthcare. Just my opinion. Maybe not so asinine.
 
colbgw02 said:
Why would you assume there were no remediation efforts? Did the OP PM you?
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Because it's April. Remediation usually occurs over the summer. Unless this his second attempt at ms1, what he is saying is virtually unheard of. The school would basically be saying that the failure is so bad that remediation isn't even an option. And that would kind of be a failure on the school to not identify the problem earlier. Need more details
 
anaesthetic said:
"I mean we are, or will be, almighty physicians after all. We have such a deep knowledge of human physiology and pathology and passion for patient care that no other human beings can compare, and we should never strive for anything 'lesser' than a medical degree. Why would any bright person not become a doctor? Only the smartest people go to medical school! And if you can't cut it, then don't go into healthcare at all! Duh. Don't waste your talents."
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not to mention the fact that the person explicitly said they wanted to stay in healthcare
 
IlDestriero said:
If/When he fails out of PA school he will be in the same position with no career. Very few people wash out of medical school, so if he was a sure thing academic superstar we wouldn't be commenting in this thread.
If he goes to nursing school, he can always be a nurse if CRNA school or NP school are delayed or don't work out.
Accelerated nursing can be done in as little as a year, one to two more years for experience to apply to CRNA school and 2.5-3 years after that he's making >$150k working 3 12s.
Maybe not so asinine after all...
Click to expand...

Or skip the nursing part and just go to AA school.
 
Decussation said:
I've been dismissed during my first year for academic reasons. I'm not here to feel sorry for myself, I just want to know what career options I have now. I know I want to stay in healthcare (or research if that isn't an option), and want some sort of graduate degree. What other healthcare fields would consider accepting someone who's been dismissed from medical school? I'm planning on taking some time to work and figure out what I want to do, but I'd like to have an idea of what's even possible. Thanks.
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What school dismissed you this fast? Usually schools give you 2 or 3 chances before kicking you out. Please tell me in PM which school this is.
 
I considered going back for an engineering degree to work in the medical device industry prior to deciding on med school. My friends in that industry seem to really enjoy it, have good hours and make pretty good money
 
I'm not sure why everyone's so shocked about OP getting kicked out or why people think he could reasonably get back in. Our school has dismissed 2 students for academic reasons and one of them was dismissed in November. One of them failed the first 3 sections (2 of them by a lot), and the other person failed one section and multiple practicals, then failed the remediation of the section.

At schools with systems based curriculum it's very possible to have failed 2 or 3 classes by the end of first semester. If a student fails more courses than they pass, I see no reason why they shouldn't be dismissed unless there was some medical issue or a family emergency.
 
There's a great inspirational & relevant thread I'll come back and add once I get back to my computer. Brb
 
Stagg737 said:
I'm not sure why everyone's so shocked about OP getting kicked out or why people think he could reasonably get back in. Our school has dismissed 2 students for academic reasons and one of them was dismissed in November. One of them failed the first 3 sections (2 of them by a lot), and the other person failed one section and multiple practicals, then failed the remediation of the section.

At schools with systems based curriculum it's very possible to have failed 2 or 3 classes by the end of first semester. If a student fails more courses than they pass, I see no reason why they shouldn't be dismissed unless there was some medical issue or a family emergency.
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From a school's perspective, though, failing a student out is nothing but bad. It results in a "wasted" spot in their class and can reflect poorly on the school, i.e., lower graduation rates. I understand if a person really can't "hack it," but then again why would they be admitted in the first place?
 
Decussation said:
I've been dismissed during my first year for academic reasons. I'm not here to feel sorry for myself, I just want to know what career options I have now. I know I want to stay in healthcare (or research if that isn't an option), and want some sort of graduate degree. What other healthcare fields would consider accepting someone who's been dismissed from medical school? I'm planning on taking some time to work and figure out what I want to do, but I'd like to have an idea of what's even possible. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Here's a great thread to read, front to back. It's not over until you say it's over. GL <3
 
NickNaylor said:
From a school's perspective, though, failing a student out is nothing but bad. It results in a "wasted" spot in their class and can reflect poorly on the school, i.e., lower graduation rates. I understand if a person really can't "hack it," but then again why would they be admitted in the first place?
Click to expand...

True, but if a person is consistently performing poorly and it seems like they may not pass boards or match, it'll still hurt the school. Realistically, dismissing 3-4 people and having 100% pass and match rates isn't that different from 0% attrition with 92% pass/match rates. Either way it just says they had a few students that couldn't hack it, and realistically if a student is struggling that much it may be better if they aren't in charge of patients for their career.
 
Stagg737 said:
True, but if a person is consistently performing poorly and it seems like they may not pass boards or match, it'll still hurt the school. Realistically, dismissing 3-4 people and having 100% pass and match rates isn't that different from 0% attrition with 92% pass/match rates. Either way it just says they had a few students that couldn't hack it, and realistically if a student is struggling that much it may be better if they aren't in charge of patients for their career.
Click to expand...

In both cases though that data would be captured in statistics which are usually available to applicants. I would be concerned about going to a school with a 92% graduation rate or match rate.
 
lazymed said:
- some NPs have an excellent grasp of pathophys. Wait until you interact with experienced ICU NPs or PAs then come back and tell me how little they know
- CRNAs have a very good understanding of physiology.
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The first point is not consistent with what I've heard in the critical care forums, but I will freely admit that you've probably met more of them than I have.

If the second point is true, how come only half of them can pass a greatly watered down version of step 3 (the easiest section of USMLE in terms of pathophysiology)?
 
cbrons said:
The first point is not consistent with what I've heard in the critical care forums, but I will freely admit that you've probably met more of them than I have.

If the second point is true, how come only half of them can pass a greatly watered down version of step 3 (the easiest section of USMLE in terms of pathophysiology)?
Click to expand...

Both of those experienced midlevels will know 'their' respective area better than MDs in unrelated fields.

Physicians on average have a much broader 'basal' knowledge of medicine than midlevels and then a lot more specifically about their specialty. Regardless, the ICU PA who treats DKA or sepsis and rounds with an ICU attending daily for 20 years will know more about those subjects than the junior resident or unrelated attending. Their knowledge is generally a narrow laser without much peripheral knowledge.

The peripheral knowledge is important is one of the reasons you have to do a med school, then IM residency before becoming a cardiologist.
 
link2swim06 said:
Both of those experienced midlevels will know 'their' respective area better than MDs in unrelated fields.

Physicians on average have a much broader 'basal' knowledge of medicine than midlevels and then a lot more specifically about their specialty. Regardless, the ICU PA who treats DKA or sepsis and rounds with an ICU attending daily for 20 years will know more about those subjects than the junior resident or unrelated attending. Their knowledge is generally a narrow laser without much peripheral knowledge.

The peripheral knowledge is important is one of the reasons you have to do a med school, then IM residency before becoming a cardiologist.
Click to expand...
Why is the peripheral knowledge important? If the only difference between physicians and so called midlevels is "peripheral knowledge," and all we hear about is how "all the studies show" that the two professions produce equivalent outcomes, then the "peripheral knowledge" doesn't really matter, does it? Why don't we just get rid of med school and have kids select whatever specialty they want to go into and shorten the training down to what PAs and NPs get? Really I'm asking an honest question.
 
quite
WingedOx said:
And if there's one thing I've learned being around academic administrators... they REALLY don't like owning up to when they've made a mistake.
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Previously excellent candidates may become incapacitated for many reasons.
Some risks are also taken in admissions, knowing that a failure is possible. We are often faulted for being risk averse but the actual and emotional expense of a mistake is quite high.
 
cbrons said:
Why is the peripheral knowledge important? If the only difference between physicians and so called midlevels is "peripheral knowledge," and all we hear about is how "all the studies show" that the two professions produce equivalent outcomes, then the "peripheral knowledge" doesn't really matter, does it? Why don't we just get rid of med school and have kids select whatever specialty they want to go into and shorten the training down to what PAs and NPs get? Really I'm asking an honest question.
Click to expand...

Taking it one step further, why have any training at all? Just give 18 year olds prescription pads, let them google treatment.
 
gyngyn said:
quite


Previously excellent candidates may become incapacitated for many reasons.
Some risks are also taken in admissions, knowing that a failure is possible. We are often faulted for being risk averse but the actual and emotional expense of a mistake is quite high.
Click to expand...

I don't think admitting someone who ultimately didn't make it through should ever be considered a mistake on behalf of the adcoms. However I could see it as an error on account of the med student community and professors not to talk with and support the at-risk student before the pressure becomes so overwhelming that the student tarnishes his or her academic record. There is no doubt anybody let in by today's standards was a great candidate.
 
GroverPsychMD said:
Taking it one step further, why have any training at all? Just give 18 year olds prescription pads, let them google treatment.
Click to expand...
Why not? All we hear about on this site lately is how everyone in the hospital is 10x smarter than the residents. The PA knows more, the NP knows more, the nurse knows more, etc. If that is really the case, then what the hell were those 4 year of med school for? In a world where we hear many physicians devalue medical education and insist much of medical school is a waste of time, it is hard for us lowly medical students to feel all that inspired when none of it will actually differentiate us from people with 2 years of school and no residency.
 
cbrons said:
Why is the peripheral knowledge important? If the only difference between physicians and so called midlevels is "peripheral knowledge," and all we hear about is how "all the studies show" that the two professions produce equivalent outcomes, then the "peripheral knowledge" doesn't really matter, does it? Why don't we just get rid of med school and have kids select whatever specialty they want to go into and shorten the training down to what PAs and NPs get? Really I'm asking an honest question.
Click to expand...

I'm not comparing the fellowship trained intensivist to the ICU PA. The differences there are obvious.

I'm just saying being a physician (aka graduating from med school) does not automatically make you know more than every midlevel. They are going to have a very focused knowledge in their specific area. If you practice in a different specialty they may know more about their specialty than you do.

Just being a third year med student doing all the 'core rotations' does not always teach you more than the midlevel who has been doing it for 20 years.
 
GroverPsychMD said:
Taking it one step further, why have any training at all? Just give 18 year olds prescription pads, let them google treatment.
Click to expand...

Were you a pharmacist before you went to med school? That's something we hear a lot, and always have. :whistle:

OP, have you ever heard of cytotechnology? It's a 1-year certificate program that does require a biology and/or chemistry degree, and they're the people who prepare specimens for the pathologist. I worked with a man at my old job who didn't want to go to pharmacy or medical school, and that's what he did.
 
cbrons said:
Why not? All we hear about on this site lately is how everyone in the hospital is 10x smarter than the residents. The PA knows more, the NP knows more, the nurse knows more, etc. If that is really the case, then what the hell were those 4 year of med school for? In a world where we hear many physicians devalue medical education and insist much of medical school is a waste of time, it is hard for us lowly medical students to feel all that inspired when none of it will actually differentiate us from people with 2 years of school and no residency.
Click to expand...

Don't worry about all this nonsense.
Not worth any energy.
Keep studying hard.
I am very happy to be a physician and won't have it any other way.
 
Decussation said:
I've been dismissed during my first year for academic reasons. I'm not here to feel sorry for myself, I just want to know what career options I have now. I know I want to stay in healthcare (or research if that isn't an option), and want some sort of graduate degree. What other healthcare fields would consider accepting someone who's been dismissed from medical school? I'm planning on taking some time to work and figure out what I want to do, but I'd like to have an idea of what's even possible. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Apply again if you want to be a physician.
 
Decussation said:
I've been dismissed during my first year for academic reasons. I'm not here to feel sorry for myself, I just want to know what career options I have now. I know I want to stay in healthcare (or research if that isn't an option), and want some sort of graduate degree. What other healthcare fields would consider accepting someone who's been dismissed from medical school? I'm planning on taking some time to work and figure out what I want to do, but I'd like to have an idea of what's even possible. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Get an MBA and become a hospital admin.
 
cbrons said:
The first point is not consistent with what I've heard in the critical care forums, but I will freely admit that you've probably met more of them than I have.

If the second point is true, how come only half of them can pass a greatly watered down version of step 3 (the easiest section of USMLE in terms of pathophysiology)?
Click to expand...

-many icu APPs function as glorified nurses/ scribes. But many are very good. It depends on the icu setting, and how much the intensivists teach and train them. Some try to read a lot (usually books and not journal articles). I'd say most have a good enough grasp of what's going on and can deal with common issues. They are and will always be far from an intensive care physician in terms of knowledge and skills. The zebras will still get them.

- it's unfair to define "having a grasp of pathophys" as having "physician level knowledge". Knowledge is a spectrum and not a dichotomous item.

- my original statements hold. For someone, a non-medical person who is interested a certain level of physiology and pathophysiology, although far from a physicians level of knowledge but still much more than a lay person, becoming an NP/PA/CRNA can be very rewarding.
 
link2swim06 said:
Both of those experienced midlevels will know 'their' respective area better than MDs in unrelated fields.

Physicians on average have a much broader 'basal' knowledge of medicine than midlevels and then a lot more specifically about their specialty. Regardless, the ICU PA who treats DKA or sepsis and rounds with an ICU attending daily for 20 years will know more about those subjects than the junior resident or unrelated attending. Their knowledge is generally a narrow laser without much peripheral knowledge.

The peripheral knowledge is important is one of the reasons you have to do a med school, then IM residency before becoming a cardiologist.
Click to expand...

This.
Also, a lot of the basic science that we're taught is in medical school is useful for
- basic science research
- understanding new clinical phenomena or discoveries. For example the mechanism of a novel drug or the newly described pathophys of a complex disease that wasn't previously understood.

Otherwise, on a day to day basis- we rely on our clinical acumen/experience and don't regularly have to break things down to their basic science detail. Also, if you talk to a genius medicine doctor, they will talk about many abstract concepts but then proceed to tell you it changes nothing in terms of clinical management. While an APP cannot recite that same abstract basic science, they still know the general approach to working up and managing the problems that are common to their setting.
 
cbrons said:
Why not? All we hear about on this site lately is how everyone in the hospital is 10x smarter than the residents. The PA knows more, the NP knows more, the nurse knows more, etc. If that is really the case, then what the hell were those 4 year of med school for? In a world where we hear many physicians devalue medical education and insist much of medical school is a waste of time, it is hard for us lowly medical students to feel all that inspired when none of it will actually differentiate us from people with 2 years of school and no residency.
Click to expand...

Experienced APPs might be better than an intern but rarely better than a second or third year resident. Our education is so in depth that it's slow to ramp up but we certainly come out much more advanced.

A lot of clinical practice is based on experience, but nonetheless, a second year resident will outperform an APP with 10 years of experience. That doesn't make APPs clueless or with no knowledge. It's a different scale and the two should not be compared.
 
cbrons said:
Why is the peripheral knowledge important? If the only difference between physicians and so called midlevels is "peripheral knowledge," and all we hear about is how "all the studies show" that the two professions produce equivalent outcomes, then the "peripheral knowledge" doesn't really matter, does it? Why don't we just get rid of med school and have kids select whatever specialty they want to go into and shorten the training down to what PAs and NPs get? Really I'm asking an honest question.
Click to expand...

- our education is inefficient compared to PA school.
- a lot of the additional knowledge is useful. But much of it isn't. You learn so damn much more and or spend more time learning but it's hard to tell exactly what's wasteful.
- basic science and advanced clinical research would suffer
- advanced specialties require a higher skill or knowledge level.
- remember: most patients get better despite what we do to them, not because of it.
 
lazymed said:
- my original statements hold. For someone, a non-medical person who is interested a certain level of physiology and pathophysiology, although far from a physicians level of knowledge but still much more than a lay person, becoming an NP/PA/CRNA can be very rewarding.
Click to expand...

Why is sdn so big on PA being a good career for someone that is able to get into med school? After an IM residency you can make 200k+ easily. Even FM docs make 170k+. PAs function in a similar role but are stuck at 100k for their entire careers. Is 2 years of less schooling worth the drop in salary?
 
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