Disorders we could do without

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firedoor

let it bleed
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In my REM world the following would be exluded from the DSM-5:

Rett's
Elimination Disorders
Childhood Disintegrative Disorder
Somatization Disorder
Sleep Disorders
ODD/Conduct
Paraphilias

...and there would be a separate child vs. adult DSM... Ahhh :rolleyes: Anyone else?

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Somatization is being replaced by CSSD. Much more practical, focuses on the spectrum of illness, the distress, and removing the criteria of medically unexplained. So in a way you're getting your wish.

I'd get rid of ADHD as well, but that's my own bias. It's grossly overdiagnosed, and is based on a contemporary perception that the criteria for normal is being able to sit in a classroom all day. So much of the literature is pharm biased as well.
 
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Somatization is being replaced by CSSD. Much more practical, focuses on the spectrum of illness, the distress, and removing the criteria of medically unexplained. So in a way you're getting your wish.

I'd get rid of ADHD as well, but that's my own bias. It's grossly overdiagnosed, and is based on a contemporary perception that the criteria for normal is being able to sit in a classroom all day. So much of the literature is pharm biased as well.

love it.
 
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Are you asking which specific diagnoses I think are stupid or ill-defined and shouldn't be in the DSM or what particular diagnoses I most dislike working with?
 
I'd get rid of ADHD as well, but that's my own bias. It's grossly overdiagnosed, and is based on a contemporary perception that the criteria for normal is being able to sit in a classroom all day. So much of the literature is pharm biased as well.

I respectively disagree and think that argument oversimplifies ADHD. If ADHD was simply about paying attention in class, it would make my life so much easier. Unfortunately, it's much more--impulsivity in all domains (home, school, with friends, etc), accidents, conduct and oppositional issues, high comorbid mood and anxiety disorders (OCD), learning disabilities, substance abuse, social and cognitive deficits....It can be pretty impairing.
 
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Are you asking which specific diagnoses I think are stupid or ill-defined and shouldn't be in the DSM or what particular diagnoses I most dislike working with?

The former.
 
That list of exclusions looks good! Any thoughts on a Clinical DSM vs a Research DSM? Currently the same DSM fits the needs of the insurance industry, pharmaceutical industry, research, legal and yes...us physicians. A veritable one stop shop!
 
After today, I say you can do whatever you want with the silly book as long as insurance companies will pay for the lipid panel and VitD panel for Mood NOS.

Somedays, I can understand why some docs perpetuate fraud and diagnose everybody as bipolar nos. It's the best way to get insurance companies to not deny random crap only to have mothers of borderline patients calling your office at 8pm begging that you fax information ASAP to their lab out in the bumfrak woods of the outer limits of your city because you wrote Mood NOS on the lab script because you didn't buy the last psychiatrist's misdiagnosis even though the patient is on seroquel trileptal lithium neurontin and and and...

Long day.
 
Get rid of the whole dang thing. This baby deserves to get thrown out with the bathwater. If the DSM were only accessible to MD's, then that would be a good start. In an effort to make consistent diagnoses from "clinician" to "clinician", we've colluded in the dumbing down of our profession to the lowest common denominator.
 
After today, I say you can do whatever you want with the silly book as long as insurance companies will pay for the lipid panel and VitD panel for Mood NOS.

Somedays, I can understand why some docs perpetuate fraud and diagnose everybody as bipolar nos. It's the best way to get insurance companies to not deny random crap only to have mothers of borderline patients calling your office at 8pm begging that you fax information ASAP to their lab out in the bumfrak woods of the outer limits of your city because you wrote Mood NOS on the lab script because you didn't buy the last psychiatrist's misdiagnosis even though the patient is on seroquel trileptal lithium neurontin and and and...

Long day.

:clap:

Its not really fraud when you are in fact helping out your patient. Do no harm refers to the patient not some CEO or shareholder.
 
Get rid of the whole dang thing. This baby deserves to get thrown out with the bathwater. If the DSM were only accessible to MD's, then that would be a good start. In an effort to make consistent diagnoses from "clinician" to "clinician", we've colluded in the dumbing down of our profession to the lowest common denominator.

Interesting point. Can you expand?
 
In my REM world the following would be exluded from the DSM-5:

Rett's
Elimination Disorders
Childhood Disintegrative Disorder
Somatization Disorder
Sleep Disorders
ODD/Conduct
Paraphilias

...and there would be a separate child vs. adult DSM... Ahhh :rolleyes: Anyone else?


Why Rett's?
 
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In an effort to make consistent diagnoses from "clinician" to "clinician", we've colluded in the dumbing down of our profession to the lowest common denominator.

A problem here is a treatment team is made of several people outside the medical doctor that must also be on the same page. Another thing is, IMHO, I've seen people with only a bachelor's degree that could diagnose better than a medical doctor.

Good diagnostic skills is, IMHO, a combination of street smarts, critical thinking, experience, and education on the diagnostic criteria. I've seen several medical doctors, even psychiatrists have a poor foundation in all areas.

I have more faith in a case manager who's seen the patients several times a week over the course of possibly years than a psychiatrist that spot diagnoses someone, puts them on a medicaiton, then sees them off. Unfortunately I find these type of psychiatrists all too common.

Another thing is physicians, we're supposed to explain what's going on to the patient in terms they could understand. If they want to read up on their disorder, to gain insight so they can help themselves, by all means we should facilitate that process.
 
A problem here is a treatment team is made of several people outside the medical doctor that must also be on the same page. Another thing is, IMHO, I've seen people with only a bachelor's degree that could diagnose better than a medical doctor.

Good diagnostic skills is, IMHO, a combination of street smarts, critical thinking, experience, and education on the diagnostic criteria. I've seen several medical doctors, even psychiatrists have a poor foundation in all areas.

I have more faith in a case manager who's seen the patients several times a week over the course of possibly years than a psychiatrist that spot diagnoses someone, puts them on a medicaiton, then sees them off. Unfortunately I find these type of psychiatrists all too common.

Another thing is physicians, we're supposed to explain what's going on to the patient in terms they could understand. If they want to read up on their disorder, to gain insight so they can help themselves, by all means we should facilitate that process.


:thumbup:
 
Good diagnostic skills is, IMHO, a combination of street smarts, critical thinking, experience, and education on the diagnostic criteria. I've seen several medical doctors, even psychiatrists have a poor foundation in all areas.

I have more faith in a case manager who's seen the patients several times a week over the course of possibly years than a psychiatrist that spot diagnoses someone, puts them on a medicaiton, then sees them off. Unfortunately I find these type of psychiatrists all too common.

I agree with your list there, though I think you are underestimating the importance of INTENSE education as to the conceptualization of these disorders, NOT just the criteria. Many psychiatrists don't get this training either.

I'm with 9point75 here. I've worked with case managers who are rad. But if even the raddest of them just stuck to the criteria (even faithfully), then everyone would be (and is) bipolar.

Clinicians and case managers do the intakes at one of my clinics, and they are smart people, and their diagnoses are wrong 75% of the time, easy.
 
Unfortunately, it is not always clear who is wrong. It's not practical, nor necessarily clinically relevant to do a SCID on every case. There are often co-morbidities that could probably be considered reactive to a core element (e.g., attention deficits resulting in poor social reaction, resulting in depression). Diagnosis of mental illness is not easy, nor is it particularly straightforward. It's not uncommon to see people bounce around with different diagnoses for several years before arriving at something like Borderline Personality Disorder. I think this part of the impetus for some of the attempts at revising the system with the DSM-V. I know, with respect to personality at least, we've kicked around the idea of continuum models for a long time. I also think treatment decisions other than drugs need to be considered more strongly by various prescribing practitioners. Of course, a major problem at present is that most psychoactive medications aren't even prescribed by psychiatrists, but by primary care physicians, who know even less about proper diagnosis; I've seen some real nightmares in that situation.

well said. this is the trend I'm seeing as well.
 
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Another thing is physicians, we're supposed to explain what's going on to the patient in terms they could understand. If they want to read up on their disorder, to gain insight so they can help themselves, by all means we should facilitate that process.

Totally agree with this I had a patient recently with borderline PD who told me that her former providers discouraged her from reading about her illness. Of course, it's entirely possible that this wasn't true, but I did mention a few books she might find helpful.

Intermittent Explosive Disorder.

Agree with that one too. Ties into something I find myself saying every now and then. "He's not bipolar; he's just an *******."
 
The only times I didn't want patients to know more about their diagnosis was if they were malingering, and they had a serious charge (e.g. murder, attempted murder, manslaughter).

But even then, with round-the-clock observation and psychological testing, we'd still be able to nail someone malingering.

But even then, by the ethics of our profession, I still have to do some things in terms of education.

What I would do in cases like this is in addition to testing, don't give meds to the patient and observe them for several days. Then give a subtherapeutic dosage (e.g. Seroquel 25 mg QHS) fo several days, and then see if the patient shows any difference.
 
I believe it is best conceived of as primarily a neurological disorder, akin to Parkinson's or Huntington's.

Throw out dementia/delirium too. This whole psychosomatic business is nonsense as well. I agree, we should just treat mood, anxiety and psychosis. Throw out everything else. :rolleyes:
 
i definitely could do without lack of sleep and having adhd... there is too much that goes with both
 
The only times I didn't want patients to know more about their diagnosis was if they were malingering, and they had a serious charge (e.g. murder, attempted murder, manslaughter).

But even then, with round-the-clock observation and psychological testing, we'd still be able to nail someone malingering.

But even then, by the ethics of our profession, I still have to do some things in terms of education.

What I would do in cases like this is in addition to testing, don't give meds to the patient and observe them for several days. Then give a subtherapeutic dosage (e.g. Seroquel 25 mg QHS) fo several days, and then see if the patient shows any difference.


Is that ethical?

(This isn't any sort of attack, I always thought stuff like this would be useful to do in lots of medical situations but I'm curious of the ethics related to it)
 
How about ditching borderline personality d/o and coming up with an Axis I dx that relates to affective dysregulation?

Anyone? Bueller?
 
How about ditching borderline personality d/o and coming up with an Axis I dx that relates to affective dysregulation?

Anyone? Bueller?

If a person has "labile" mood, then why cant we just state that? Does it really need a diagnosis?

Relatedly, what I find most odd about the proposed "Disruptive Mood Dysregulation Disorder" in DSM-5 (http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevision/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=397) is that it tries to fix one problem by completely overloooking the much bigger, and probably more important problem. Namely, that THE KID is being framed as the one with the problem. It seems quite obvious that the point of this diagnosis is to quit overdiagnosing bipolar disorder in children and adolescents, and to quite over-pathologizing children's reactive behavior to chaotic homelives or environmental stressors/situations. Their solution? Diagnose yet another disorder where the child is seen as the only one with the problem. Brilliant!
 
I'd get rid of ADHD as well, but that's my own bias. It's grossly overdiagnosed, and is based on a contemporary perception that the criteria for normal is being able to sit in a classroom all day. So much of the literature is pharm biased as well.

I respectively disagree and think that argument oversimplifies ADHD. If ADHD was simply about paying attention in class, it would make my life so much easier. Unfortunately, it's much more--impulsivity in all domains (home, school, with friends, etc), accidents, conduct and oppositional issues, high comorbid mood and anxiety disorders (OCD), learning disabilities, substance abuse, social and cognitive deficits....It can be pretty impairing.

As a special education teacher, I'd like to hear more. I taught several kids on ADHD meds (which worked with varying degrees of success) and often wondered what they were like on weekends or with friends outside of school. Making sure they can sit still and pay attention may be a teacher's yardstick for measuring "normal" but a child isn't a student 100% of the time.

To a clinician's eye, how does ADHD manifest and what other factors lead to a diagnosis of it? I've done a fair bit of reading on the subject but haven't had any real discussion of it with psychiatrists. At the risk of threadjacking, I'd love to hear what anyone here has to say.
 
"Labile mood" alone doesn't get a diagnosis, and BPD is much more than labile mood.

Um, I didnt say it was. I dont quibble with the diagnosis if BPD. I quibbled with the proposal that we we toss it and relplace with the "affect dysregulation" or whatever that poster proposed"
 
If a person has "labile" mood, then why cant we just state that? Does it really need a diagnosis?

Relatedly, what I find most odd about the proposed "Disruptive Mood Dysregulation Disorder" in DSM-5 (http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevision/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=397) is that it tries to fix one problem by completely overloooking the much bigger, and probably more important problem. Namely, that THE KID is being framed as the one with the problem. It seems quite obvious that the point of this diagnosis is to quit overdiagnosing bipolar disorder in children and adolescents, and to quite over-pathologizing children's reactive behavior to chaotic homelives or environmental stressors/situations. Their solution? Diagnose yet another disorder where the child is seen as the only one with the problem. Brilliant!

Agree with your framing of the issue, but I don't see the DSM crew touching the issue of dysfunctional family systems anytime soon. I think the best we can hope for is a model where clinicians play along with the idea that the child is the identified client(and maybe assign this new diagnosis) but actually treat as if the family unit is the identified client.

Trying to look at this from the psychiatry perspective, I think the new Dx aims to try and get clinicians to look beyond a pharmacotherapy-only solution. The current problem is that the dx views the child as the only one with the problem AND heavily favors the medication option for treatment.
 
Agree with your framing of the issue, but I don't see the DSM crew touching the issue of dysfunctional family systems anytime soon. I think the best we can hope for is a model where clinicians play along with the idea that the child is the identified client(and maybe assign this new diagnosis) but actually treat as if the family unit is the identified client.

.

agree; unfortunately it is hard for a psychiatrist to bill for treating a family or a problem, he has to bill (in most cases) for treating an individual with a diagnosis.
 
agree; unfortunately it is hard for a psychiatrist to bill for treating a family or a problem, he has to bill (in most cases) for treating an individual with a diagnosis.

Right, I think it's clear that most psychiatrists would refer for anything like family therapy, but I think they also have substantial influence with the parents as to what the overall treatment plan should be and whether it should include work with the family as a whole.
 
Is that ethical?

A fair question.

IMHO doctors should not be educating patients on how to beat malingering evaluations when they are trying to evaluate them for it. Obvious right? The problem here becomes should I tell the patient what does is considered therapeutic if I have strong reason to believe he is malingering?

IMHO I'm not giving him wrong information, just seeing if Seroquel at a subtherapeutic dosage stops the "psychotic" behavior. I'm not going to tell him "Oh by the way, you can't have psychosis if Seroquel at that dosage is effectively treating your psychosis."

I have already questioned the ethics to the point where I have reached my own conclusion on it. I'm not saying I'm 100% right. Others could disagree. My retort would then be then give me a way to figure out if this person is malingering.

Also bear in mind that the scenario I do this in is a forensic one where the Court already has it established that they want me to figure out of the person is malingering. I don't do such things outside of forensic psychiatry. This type of situation has already been put before various ethics committees, judges, and professional societies and no one has ever condemned this type of thing as far as I'm aware.

If I ever was put through an ethics board for this type of practice here's what my response would be. The entire field of malingering testing is based on evaluating people to see if they have symptoms that are out of the ordinary for someone who has a real disorder, and the person doesn't know how to fake it, and thus the test will show they are malingering. If one finds this practice unethical and feels that I must tell the patient, then along the same lines I must also explain how the symptom exaggeration scale also works in an MMPI, how it also works on a SIRS, a TOMM, and an M-FAST.

If the law wants to go that route, there will now be no method at all other than simple clinical evaluation to diagnose malingering, and even then, under the same guidelines, I'd have to inform patients on behaviors they are doing that suggest malingering. If an ethics board wants to condemn it, then they too must condemn the above tests because in essence I'm doing the same thing...seeing if something presented doesn't jive with how the real disorder works without educating the patient on the exact way to successfully fake it.

Doctors do this type of practice all the time in nonforensic medicine. The level of education we give is supposed to reasonably inform a patient but not cover every single exact detail. E.g. a patient who comes in with a bellyache and the doctor suspects it's psychosomatic, gives a starting dosage that's not yet supposed to be effective, then the upset stomach subsides, leading the doctor more reason to believe the effect was psychosomatic. In general psychiatry in residency, we simply talked to patients about their symptoms, looked at the signs, and went from there. There's a lot we don't tell patients and rightfully so---because to inform them on every single aspect of a disorder will make seeing one patient an 8 hour session.

But aside from the forces of justice, another reason to find out if the person is malingering is so you could better help a person. To do that you have to know what's going on for real. I've had patients with factitious disorder or malingering, and when it was revealed so, it turned out they had other disorders the treatment team could not detect because the fake presentation was covering them up. E.g. I had a patient with factitious disorder and malingering who faked psychosis for years. When it was established everything was fake that we were seeing, we were able to modify her psychotherapy to explore why she did that. I have a guy on my unit right now that was malingering, and when we figured it out and he knew we knew, he later opened up and told us he had symptoms of PTSD, and I actually believe he has the latter.
 
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Whopper you bring up interesting issues as to the ethics of treatment with lesser care for the purpose of diagnosis or even a placebo effect. I think this is also relevant to conversion/factitious d/o. An interesting but criticized approach is the double-bind. The patient is told either their illness is organic or psychiatric [let's leave that alone for the moment as a point of debate]. The pt. is then brought a ceremonial "magic" pill (placebo), and are told this pill will sort it out. If the condition is organic, they're told, this pill will cure them. If it's psychiatric, it won't, and they'll need regular visits with a psychiatrist and therapist. Though this doesn't help the diagnostic dilemma of conversion vs. factitious, it reportedly can lead to improvement. The conversion pt. is very suggestible and so gets better. The factitious pt. would rather get better and let go of their gain in the sick role than admit to having a psychiatric diagnosis, and so they get better as well.

Now this is written about in the New Oxford Textbook of Psychiatry. When I tell anyone about the intervention, everyone critiques it as unethical. And yet the alternative, what we often do of telling a pt. it is organic (a lie) and that it'll improve in X days, sometimes even sending them for physical therapy, is equally deceptive and disingenuous.

Whopper also opens up the issue of iatrogenic illnesses, which we aid just by asking so many leading questions. "Doc I think I'm having akathisia, and the only thing that seems to help is Valium." :rolleyes:
 
A fair question.

Thanks for the educational response. I find this sort of thing really interesting, I'm also pretty interested in the concept of using placebos as a therapy in some cases. (Doesnt this happen in some countries in europe?)
 
A fair question.

If I ever was put through an ethics board for this type of practice here's what my response would be. The entire field of malingering testing is based on evaluating people to see if they have symptoms that are out of the ordinary for someone who has a real disorder, and the person doesn't know how to fake it, and thus the test will show they are malingering. If one finds this practice unethical and feels that I must tell the patient, then along the same lines I must also explain how the symptom exaggeration scale also works in an MMPI, how it also works on a SIRS, a TOMM, and an M-FAST.

.

there is a difference... no one has ever gone into anaphylaxis from taking the MMPI. deceiving the pt is not the only ethical issue
 
I agree the issue is controversial.

There's actually a heck of a lot of issues I find controversial that we encounter everyday but no one is addressing them in journals. E.g. every competent psychiatrist I've seen is well-aware of the diagnosis by chart phenomenon, where one doctor misdiagnoses one disorder and the rest fall like dominoes, but I don't see people addressing it officially in professional societies or journals.
 
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