Divided interests

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HippoSucks

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Hello everyone. I've been lurking around the Student Doctor forums from several months and just decided to create an account. I'm currently a third year student majoring in Mathematics and Physics along with a minor in Computer Science. Apart from those 3 subjects, I have an interest in medicine and law. In an effort to keep my options open, I've been taking many of the prerequisite courses for both medical and law school. Fortunately that isn't too difficult due to many Advanced Placement credits and Advanced Standing. However, now as my junior year is passing by, I have started to get quite worried about thinking of which profession to pursue. My choice is primarily between medicine and law, as after speaking with multiple professors, I have gained the assurance that it is not very difficult to continue with mathematics or physics concurrently with either of medicine and law. So I was wondering if anyone here has experience in either of those fields and would like to explain why they chose their field as opposed to the other one. Out of medicine and law, I don't particularly enjoy either one more.
 
@Law2Doc can probably provide great perspective.

Yes, I searched up a few other threads on this forum and he gave some great advice. Unfortunately those threads ended up being diverted to trolling or some completely different topics...

Also, just to clarify, my issue is not selecting one of those 5 professions, but just one of law and medicine. I'll find a way to manage the rest.
 
Also, how does the community generally view combined MD/JD programs?
 
My S/O is in law school and I'm heading to med school next year, so I have some (although not a thorough) understanding of both fields. The main issue I see with law school is the difficulty finding employment. If you're seriously considering going to law school, you should figure out what exactly it is you'll want to do. Big law? Go to a top 14 school, do very well, and you have a shot. Patent? Get a PhD, then go to law school. There are law forums where you can get more info, but you definitely need to be realistic about what you can do based on your LSAT score and where you go to school.
Med school more or less guarantees you a job, but 4 years of med school + residency won't be easy, and a lot of doctors are unhappy with their careers.
 
So what are your reasons for wanting to be a doctor or a lawyer? The most obvious connections are prestige and money, but those are not the best reasons to choose either field... With math, physics and computer science as major interests, it seems something more scientific and technical might be a better fit -- and also plenty lucrative and prestigious. Why not do that? How do you envision spending your work days? Doing what? Math, physics and computer science are wonderful skills with a host of wonderful career opportunities. Have you really investigated those?

The characteristics that make someone a highly successful lawyer (or make partner in a big firm) might not be things you enjoy doing. As an entry-level lawyer, much of your work is likely to be bone-crushingly mundane and painfully boring. But if you don't succeed at it, you don't get promoted out of it. Then once you do, it's all about bringing in new clients. You may not realize how important it is to be a "rainmaker" -- or someone who lands clients and basically "sells". Not the kind of personal attributes one normally associates with a math-physics-computer person.

Success as a doctor can be measured in several ways -- but clinical success involves tons of patient contact, so bedside manner is critical. Fat people, old people, stupid people, poor people, sick people -- You really want to spend your life around those? And success as a researcher necessitates endless rounds of grant-writing and fund-raising. Is this what you want to do?

I'd suggest shadowing several doctors and several lawyers for a few days each to see if you like what they do all day. While you're at it, I'd also suggest talking to some of your math & physics professors about career opportunities there. They absolutely do exist --
 
So what are your reasons for wanting to be a doctor or a lawyer? The most obvious connections are prestige and money, but those are not the best reasons to choose either field... With math, physics and computer science as major interests, it seems something more scientific and technical might be a better fit -- and also plenty lucrative and prestigious. Why not do that? How do you envision spending your work days? Doing what? Math, physics and computer science are wonderful skills with a host of wonderful career opportunities. Have you really investigated those?

The characteristics that make someone a highly successful lawyer (or make partner in a big firm) might not be things you enjoy doing. As an entry-level lawyer, much of your work is likely to be bone-crushingly mundane and painfully boring. But if you don't succeed at it, you don't get promoted out of it. Then once you do, it's all about bringing in new clients. You may not realize how important it is to be a "rainmaker" -- or someone who lands clients and basically "sells". Not the kind of personal attributes one normally associates with a math-physics-computer person.

Success as a doctor can be measured in several ways -- but clinical success involves tons of patient contact, so bedside manner is critical. Fat people, old people, stupid people, poor people, sick people -- You really want to spend your life around those? And success as a researcher necessitates endless rounds of grant-writing and fund-raising. Is this what you want to do?

I'd suggest shadowing several doctors and several lawyers for a few days each to see if you like what they do all day. While you're at it, I'd also suggest talking to some of your math & physics professors about career opportunities there. They absolutely do exist --

My main reason for thinking of entering into those professions is because mainly because I enjoy those two subjects. I've taken a fair amount of law and medicine courses and have greatly liked all of them once it gets beyond the basic memorization.

Money is not a factor, both for the cost of education or my income after getting a job. Societal prestige is a factor, but for all my intents a job as a mathematics researcher is enough prestigious. So that is not a reason for me pursuing medicine or law.

As I said, I'm not too interested in being a very successful lawyer. But yes, I probably will be bored by some aspects of being a lawyer. However, the field I am currently looking at (criminology) seems extraordinarily interesting. Of course I have a very small view of it and it probably won't be as I imagine it as of now.

As for the career opportunities in math, physics etc, the only career I was going to pursue in those areas was that of an academic professor/researcher.

I have some experience working in a hospital and am fine with it, as far as I know. As for research, I'm sure I would enjoy it more than actually practicing medicine.

I have talked to my professors here and one of them surprisingly used to practice medicine and conduct physics research. Nowadays he only works as a professor, but he says it certainly is possible to do it concurrently.
 
My S/O is in law school and I'm heading to med school next year, so I have some (although not a thorough) understanding of both fields. The main issue I see with law school is the difficulty finding employment. If you're seriously considering going to law school, you should figure out what exactly it is you'll want to do. Big law? Go to a top 14 school, do very well, and you have a shot. Patent? Get a PhD, then go to law school. There are law forums where you can get more info, but you definitely need to be realistic about what you can do based on your LSAT score and where you go to school.
Med school more or less guarantees you a job, but 4 years of med school + residency won't be easy, and a lot of doctors are unhappy with their careers.

I am going to a prestigious university at the moment, but since it isn't law school, I doubt it matters (although it may matter in getting into a good law school). I'm not interested in corporate law, personal injury etc. Mainly criminology is what I am looking at right now.
 
My main reason for thinking of entering into those professions is because mainly because I enjoy those two subjects. I've taken a fair amount of law and medicine courses and have greatly liked all of them once it gets beyond the basic memorization.

I have some experience working in a hospital and am fine with it, as far as I know. As for research, I'm sure I would enjoy it more than actually practicing medicine.
I would definitely recommend you shadow both criminal lawyers and doctors, or at least talk with some to get a feel for the profession. Enjoying classes does not necessarily translate to enjoying the career. Saying you're "fine" with working in a hospital is a little concerning. My sense of things is that you really have to be passionate/committed to medicine to get through the tough moments.
 
I would definitely recommend you shadow both criminal lawyers and doctors, or at least talk with some to get a feel for the profession. Enjoying classes does not necessarily translate to enjoying the career. Saying you're "fine" with working in a hospital is a little concerning. My sense of things is that you really have to be passionate/committed to medicine to get through the tough moments.

I have almost no experience of working with a lawyer, so that is something I would like to get involved with in the near future. However I have talked to several lawyers about their experiences and it seems to be mostly positive.

By "fine", I meant with the environment e.g. working with weird people.
 
I have almost no experience of working with a lawyer, so that is something I would like to get involved with in the near future. However I have talked to several lawyers about their experiences and it seems to be mostly positive.

By "fine", I meant with the environment e.g. working with weird people.

Why not do an MD/JD dual degree?

http://law.duke.edu/admis/degreeprograms/jd-md/

Problem solved!
 
Very niche. Almost impossible to practice both well. MDs or JDs can hire consultants on the other side easily.

My intention at this point is not to practice both, but just to have either option right now. I'm interested in both so studying it is not an issue, neither is the money or time required for it. I graduated high school earlier, so 4 years undergraduate plus 6 years for the MD/JD program isn't much.
 
Hello everyone. I've been lurking around the Student Doctor forums from several months and just decided to create an account. I'm currently a third year student majoring in Mathematics and Physics along with a minor in Computer Science. Apart from those 3 subjects, I have an interest in medicine and law. In an effort to keep my options open, I've been taking many of the prerequisite courses for both medical and law school. Fortunately that isn't too difficult due to many Advanced Placement credits and Advanced Standing. However, now as my junior year is passing by, I have started to get quite worried about thinking of which profession to pursue. My choice is primarily between medicine and law, as after speaking with multiple professors, I have gained the assurance that it is not very difficult to continue with mathematics or physics concurrently with either of medicine and law. So I was wondering if anyone here has experience in either of those fields and would like to explain why they chose their field as opposed to the other one. Out of medicine and law, I don't particularly enjoy either one more.

I had a similar major, although I can't be more specific due to anonymity reasons. I chose medicine because I enjoy learning about the human body, I like the job security/pay, and I enjoy helping others. I've heard a lot about a tough job market for lawyers lately; you may want to look into that. Here are a few links that I googled:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/emsi/20...n-the-rise-amid-continuing-glut-of-new-grads/
http://abovethelaw.com/2013/08/youve-been-having-bad-dreams-if-being-a-lawyer-is-your-dream-job/
http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/rankings/the-100-best-jobs

To me, being a lawyer just sounds so much less fulfilling. I'd bet your knowledge of math and physics would be a lot more useful in a scientific profession like medicine as well. Of course, we're biased advisers here, since we all obviously chose medicine.
 
MD/JD positions are typically more academic in nature.

With an MD and an interest in physics, something like Rad Onc might appeal to you. With a JD, you're likely going to find yourself doing a lot of tech legal work and potentially consulting if you want to keep the physics flame alive.
 
I am certainly considering it, but I am wondering how society looks at such things.
I think you might get shoehorned into doing a very specific type of job if you do the MD/JD, which you may find unfulfilling. Medical malpractice cases, malpractice avoidance, insurance disputes, and things of that nature. You might find yourself overqualified for regular MD residencies and JD entry-level positions.
 
My intention at this point is not to practice both, but just to have either option right now. I'm interested in both so studying it is not an issue, neither is the money or time required for it. I graduated high school earlier, so 4 years undergraduate plus 6 years for the MD/JD program isn't much.
Indecision is not a valid reason to do one of these programs. Do some more research, shadowing, soul searching and make a decision.
 
I was seriously considering law school, I think I was competitive for top schools and did everything in the application process except apply. What persuaded me towards medicine was multiple lawyers from top law schools telling me, and these are all near quotes. "the law is the law, it is really a grind without much adjustment by excellent lawyers, the John Grisham movie stuff is extremely rare, you make money in law by marketing not by being particularly intelligent, I work 80 hours a week in NYC so I can make millionaires more millions while I make $1xx,000 and have 0 satisfaction." I'm not going to completely hate on law. I know happy lawyers and the bad parts of law certainly overlap some with the bad parts of medicine but ultimately I wanted to make peoples lives better and was sick of the adversarial system of my previous job. I thought the economic climate for medicine was better than law as well.

Realistically this is irrelevant to you right now though, spend 100-200 hours at a hospital or clinic as you will have a difficult time getting into medical school otherwise. Spend some time talking with multiple real life lawyers face to face. Make sure your MCAT and GPA are good enough for medical school and LSAT is good enough for law and decide. For some reason I see you in academia just based on your post but forums can be misleading.

Also, I think with some creativity and hard work a computer science degree can potentially earn more than either profession and do some pretty darn cool stuff.
 
Lots of things to add here.
1. I wouldn't bother with an MD-JD program. The only people who have both degrees ought to be people who make career change or people who take some bizarre career twist that might utilize both. There used to be whole websites devoted to why this is just a moneymaking sham designed by schools to maximize tuition by providing minimal value. You wont earn more having both degrees, but certainly will incur a lot more debt. The short answer -- the number of jobs where you would ever need both degrees are almost nonexistent. You won't have an easier time doing medical malpractice law as a lawyer with an MD. You not be a better or more sought after expert witness as a doctor if you have a JD. There are maybe a tiny handful of jobs I could conceive of where you could actually usefully use both -- as a professor or in health policy. But in most cases you'd have to work very hard to sell to an employer why having both was advantageous. And employers would still eye you suspiciously that you are planning to jump ship to the other career. No law firm will touch a guy they think is really a doctor waiting for the right doctoring job to emerge. So basically you are going to have to choose -- to only practice in one world, and can save yourself a lot of tuition and time if you pick one. As I'm a living testament you can change your mind down the road, but I still wouldn't try to straddle the two fields.
2. Criminal law is one if the legal subspecialties that would be hardest to pair with medicine. If you were to combine the two fields (which as mentioned is not a good plan), health law, health policy and contracts/business (because medicine is a business) would be the areas with the most cross over. "criminology" is less of a lawyer term and more of a psychology/ law enforcement term, so if the study of criminals is what you are getting at, law school won't be what you had in mind; in law, they are just clients and we don't get into the psychology of what they did, and frequently don't even want to know if they even did it, we just help them through the justice system, much as you'd help a Business client navigate federal regulations.
3. As mentioned above, don't do a combined degree just to put off deciding what you are interested in. Take a year off to do peace corps or something like that if you cnt decide and need to find your calling. Dual degree isnt a good stalling technique because you rack up debt. Med schools actually like to see people who did peace corps or explored other interests before med school. Or at least did extensive shadowing to figure out what they liked. Get a job at a law firm, volunteer at the local ED.
4. I'm not sure you ever expressed why you think you are interested in both medicine and law. While both jobs have overlap, there ought to be articulable reasons why you feel one or the other is a Better fit. don't try to figure this out during professional school -- figure it out first.
5. Have a plan. If you can sit down and say here's what I want to do and here's why I need both degrees to get there, nobody can really question your decision. Don't take the field of dreams "if I build it, they will come" approach to your career. Doesn't work that way. The MD-JD programs capitalize on people without a clue, but the value added just isn't there. As mentioned, there are other combined degrees, like MD-PhD that actually might provide value. This one doesn't.
6. In term if job market, law is tighter, but there are actually medical specialties where longer job searches are becoming more common. To be honest, I don't know how much better it is to do 4 years of med school and 4 years of residency/ fellowship to spend six months looking for the right position, as opposed to spending 3 years of med school to spend a year looking for the right position. The market in law is awful, but still somewhat exaggerated on SDN. It helps to go to a top ten law school to get a big law job, but that's hardly the only path that works -- the top grads at all the regional law schools also get into the big to midsized firms. And if you are any good at marketing, you can even make money as a solo or small firm -- I know a lot if people who carved out nice niches. And in criminal law, which OP clims he likes, the big firm isn't really usually the target employer -- you'll be looking at PD, county prosecutor, DA and small firm practices to do that anyhow. The competition really isn't that bad for this end of the legal market, and the guy smart enough for med school would not have difficulty landing a job in this area. You would, however have a Tough time servicing a dual degree student loan debt with this kind of job.
 
... I work 80 hours a week in NYC so I can make millionaires more millions ...

Meh, this kind of sums up residency and your first 5 or so years of practice. And actually is true in most hierarchical and professional career paths. If you aren't working for yourself you are being leveraged to make someone else more. Just decide what you enjoy and go for it. I know happy lawyers and unhappy lawyers, happy doctors and unhappy doctors. It says more about the person than the career. Know thyself.
 
I think you might get shoehorned into doing a very specific type of job if you do the MD/JD, which you may find unfulfilling. Medical malpractice cases, malpractice avoidance, insurance disputes, and things of that nature. You might find yourself overqualified for regular MD residencies and JD entry-level positions.

Agree with the last sentence, not the first. You won't get shoehorned into these jobs. You will find you add no real value to medmal, malpractice avoidance, insurance disputes. 99.999% of these jobs are filled by people with just the JD, and they never feel they can't do the job adeutely without an additional four years of schooling. For the few tines they need medical input, they just rent an MD, or if it's just for review of the medical record, an RN by the hour. But often it's not even going to come to that.

But you absolutely will bear the overqualified label, and few law firms won't worry that you'd dump them to be a doctor if the right opportunity presented itself.
 
Thanks for all the advice. After reconsidering some things, I've come to the conclusion that if I had to pick one over the other, it would be medicine.

The only question that remains now is whether it is possible to simultaneously work as a doctor (or maybe a researcher in academic medicine) and as a lawyer. To be honest, I have little knowledge of the commitments of lawyers, whether it is possible to not work full time etc.

Also @Law2Doc, I am not so much interested in the mindset of criminals (i.e. the part that falls under psychology), but rather with criminal law. So some career like being a prosecutor is what I'm most interested in.
 
Both Medicine and Law are such HUGE fields and specialized fields. I would say its not very practical to work as a doctor and a lawyer. Both careers generally have long hours, there just isn't time to stay an expert in both. I only know 2 MD/JDs. One is in academia and doesn't use his JD degree at all. The other is trained as a surgeon and works in hospital administration but my understanding is he hasn't practiced as a surgeon in a very long time (I'd assume people want to be cut by someone who is doing surgery as more than a part time gig). I would think if you are actively practicing both medicine and law you'll make less money than either degree separately and won't really be terribly strong in either field. Most of this is just my opinion though.
 
Thanks for all the advice. After reconsidering some things, I've come to the conclusion that if I had to pick one over the other, it would be medicine.

The only question that remains now is whether it is possible to simultaneously work as a doctor (or maybe a researcher in academic medicine) and as a lawyer. To be honest, I have little knowledge of the commitments of lawyers, whether it is possible to not work full time etc.

Also @Law2Doc, I am not so much interested in the mindset of criminals (i.e. the part that falls under psychology), but rather with criminal law. So some career like being a prosecutor is what I'm most interested in.
:smack: Seriously? Did you not just read all the previous posts...
 
:smack: Seriously? Did you not just read all the previous posts...

I did, and most addressed that I shouldn't do a combined degree just because I want to keep my options open. But if a simultaneous career is possible, then that is irrelevant.
 
Thanks for all the advice. After reconsidering some things, I've come to the conclusion that if I had to pick one over the other, it would be medicine.

The only question that remains now is whether it is possible to simultaneously work as a doctor (or maybe a researcher in academic medicine) and as a lawyer. To be honest, I have little knowledge of the commitments of lawyers, whether it is possible to not work full time etc.

Also @Law2Doc, I am not so much interested in the mindset of criminals (i.e. the part that falls under psychology), but rather with criminal law. So some career like being a prosecutor is what I'm most interested in.

I'm fairly sure that @Law2Doc answered this very question in another thread. I'm a JD myself looking to make the switch over to MD.

I don't practice criminal law (it's a specialized niche), but I have a number of friends who started out as PDs (two of them state and another federal) and two more who started with the state prosecutor's office. They all started out as government workers, full-time (for crappy pay). There's no part-time when you start learning criminal law. There's no residency when you graduate from law school like there is for medicine, and when you graduate from law school you know exactly nothing about the actual practice of law. You learn by working under others. No one wants to hire a criminal defense attorney who hasn't tried a lot of cases. You will get that kind of experience in government work.

All of my friends except for one are in private practice now after spending between 3 and 10 years working for the government. My friend who started out as a federal PD has made quite a name for himself already. He has his own firm--but when you have a criminal case pending it becomes your life. Try preparing for trial part-time. There were months when I was preparing for civil trials where I slept in the office. And those were over money, not someone's freedom.

I don't see any way to combine the actual practice of medicine with the actual practice of criminal law. You'd have to finish med school and immediately go into residency, finish that, and begin as a grunt again in the world of criminal law. While I'm sure there are part-time physician positions available after residency, you won't be able to work part-time when you're learning how to practice criminal law.

Besides the fact that it sounds insane, I don't think it's physically possible.
 
I did, and most addressed that I shouldn't do a combined degree just because I want to keep my options open. But if a simultaneous career is possible, then that is irrelevant.

I guess I was subtle in my above long post -- yes, you need to pick just one. You cannot practice both. Both are paths of lifelong learning and long hours to stay up to date -- you can't just dabble in each. And there are few to no jobs in which to use both.

At least none where you will be actively pursued -- you might be able to sell it to somebody, but it will be an effort. You wont get paid more for both, but will have almost double the student loans and several years more of lost earnings. Pretty much everybody picks one or the other. There just isn't a realistic ability to be competent in more than one profession because both are full time jobs where you are expected to continue learning and keeping up with new developments in your "spare" time. Most of us feel like we don't do enough of this with one job, so two is too far down the wrong road. I do know one person who got the law degree after being in medical practice to have some street credibility to "consult" on the side of her medical practice, but I don't know that it was really necessary, or that an "executive MBA" obtained over a few weekends wouldn't have offered her the same cache. But to talk about having a "simultaneous career" is ludicrous. Pick one.
 
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I almost became a lawyer but ended up in Med. I think you'll find a doctor has to play lawyer sometimes and you'll satisfy the part of you that needs some subjectivity in your work. There are lots of politics in medicine and there are little games you have to play to influence a better outcome for the patient.

The diagnosis and treatment won't change, but in issues around privacy, payment, etc... you may find yourself in a battle of wits with gov. agencies or insurance companies to help the pt. In that sense you're almost like a lawyer.

On the other hand I suppose it could go both ways. A lawyer can't make a Dx or treatment plan, but they can win a battle for right to confidentiality or right to be treated or not be treated.
 
I'm fairly sure that @Law2Doc

I don't see any way to combine the actual practice of medicine with the actual practice of criminal law. You'd have to finish med school and immediately go into residency, finish that, and begin as a grunt again in the world of criminal law. While I'm sure there are part-time physician positions available after residency, you won't be able to work part-time when you're learning how to practice criminal law.

Besides the fact that it sounds insane, I don't think it's physically possible.

haven't you ever seen catch me if you can?
 
Just as the one word of career advice in The Graduate was, "Plastics" (as in manufacturing, not surgery), my word for you, @HippoSucks is "Bioinformatics". Look into it. I know people with MD/PhD and some with just PhD. Big data sounds like just the ticket for you.
 
@HippoSucks
So you are a math major, physics major, computer science minor, with interests in both law and medicine? It sound to me like you are more fascinated with the idea (or even fantasy) of these careers than anything. im curious, what drew you to math/physics/cs in the fist place and why are you not interested in continuing in these fields now?

It is naive to think you can practice law and medicine simultaneously as many have pointed out. Can you tell me a story about an experience you had in medical setting that made you realize you wanted to be a physician? I'm just trying to nail down where this interest in medicine is coming from.
 
OP needs to stick to his STEM career if he can't find legitimate reasons to do either med or law more seriously. Like yo r u srs ur a math/CS whiz who wants to now engulf yourself in the totally uncreative professions of med and law when you could be doing something much greater?

Yo
 
After about a month of thinking things through, I think my interest in law was more about what I perceived the profession to be about, rather than what it really is like. I spoke to numerous lawyers and the profession seems much more clerical in nature than I had imagined, and that is something I am not interested in. Clearly I'm interested in law, politics, economics etc, but I am more interested in studying those subjects rather than working in them. So I think I will continue with my program, prepare for medical school and then decide whether I want to go into academia (in one of the fields I am majoring in) or medicine.
 
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