DMU Clinical Rotations

[hsmooth]

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Hi everyone, I know that for 3rd and 4th year, DMU students might have to go away for clinicals.

Does anyone have a LIST of sites/hospitals that students typically go to?
Thank you!

 

[Orthodoc40]

Well I called the admissions office & asked for one and they said they don't make it available b/c it is always changing. So best we can get is some idea from current students, hopefully!

 

[homeboy]

Right now, 3rd year is open to many places: many students choose to stay in Des Moines, where there's 3 hospitals that students to go: Mercy (private Catholic), Broadlaws (county), and the VA--but that's just for core hospital (4 months). The other 8 months can be spent at any variety of clinics / private practices. There are students in Florida as well as Washington, and manh places in betwee.
Many students go to Ohio or Michigan, because those sites have large hospital systems that take students for the entire year, and set up all your rotations for you. This option is especially good for those looking at doing a residency in 1 of those places because you make the circuit and get seen on your core rotations, vs having to schedule an elective there...plus you're there the whole year.
The whole "scheduling your own electives" thing is touted as an advantage of DMU, but it's more a pain in the butt. On the one hand, we don't have an official big teaching hospital that all the students can rotate at (Mercy has somewhat of a relationhsip but can only handle so many), but then if you go so private practices, you're often the only one in the office, so for cardio, OB, ortho, etc., you're 1st assist and aren't having to fight with 4th yrs, interns, residents, etc...

There's students all across the country now, but in the upcoming years, DMU is supposedly trying to 'pull in' and keep 3rd yr students strictly in IA, while still keeping some big programs like MI and OH as options. This is not looked upon favorably by students becuase it prevents students from doing rotations at possible residency sites (the defense is, of course, that you've got all of 4th year to do that...which isn't exaclty true--3rd year goes until mid August, so you've got maybe 3 months...interviewing starts early in 4th year, and your ERAS needs to be in during the summer...ie, end of 3rd year.)
OB, for example, is a problem. Right now there's no OB sites in Des Moines, and unless you're in OH or MI, or one of the 12 or so students that gets a spot here, you're on your own...ie, find an OB in some other state that'll take you. Supposedly there's a bunch more OB sites in the works...

Hunt down a 2nd year so he/she can update you on the clinical affairs updates.

 

[Orthodoc40]

The whole "scheduling your own electives" thing is touted as an advantage of DMU, but it's more a pain in the butt. On the one hand, we don't have an official big teaching hospital that all the students can rotate at (Mercy has somewhat of a relationhsip but can only handle so many), but then if you go so private practices, you're often the only one in the office, so for cardio, OB, ortho, etc., you're 1st assist and aren't having to fight with 4th yrs, interns, residents, etc...
Hunt down a 2nd year so he/she can update you on the clinical affairs updates.

OOOOoo! I like this plan!! 😀

 

[It'sElectric]

This is not looked upon favorably by students becuase it prevents students from doing rotations at possible residency sites (the defense is, of course, that you've got all of 4th year to do that...which isn't exaclty true--3rd year goes until mid August, so you've got maybe 3 months...interviewing starts early in 4th year, and your ERAS needs to be in during the summer...ie, end of 3rd year.)

I just wanted to say that we (I'm a first year) were told by Clinical affairs that they will alter the 3rd year schedule accordingly in order to make up for this so that there is in fact time to do your electives. In other words, 3rd year would end significantly earlier in order to account for this. There would then be plenty of time to do 2 to 3 elective rotations at sites that you are interested in before interview season is finished.

 

[DMAKSIMOVIC]

I just wanted to say that we (I'm a first year) were told by Clinical affairs that they will alter the 3rd year schedule accordingly in order to make up for this so that there is in fact time to do your electives. In other words, 3rd year would end significantly earlier in order to account for this. There would then be plenty of time to do 2 to 3 elective rotations at sites that you are interested in before interview season is finished.

Fourth year just chiming in with my opinion. I loved the freedom we get in scheduling. Yeah it can be a pain with visiting student applications and finding housing but it's worth it in the end.

I'd be willing to bet they change their system so that all students finish their core clinic and hospital in the first 8 months so that core electives/true electives start at the same time for everybody. They may even decide to start rotations sooner than we had started.

I'm actually thankful we have the autonomy since it gives us an advantage a lot of bigger city schools don't have. Don't stress about it too much. Even three rotations are fine for so called "interview rotations" since you really can't do more than a few months in any one field anyways.

 

[homeboy]

and it's not liek you NEED to rotate at a place to appy there...it just helps.

 

[babyruth]

Most people when asking where I am from and I say DMU are surprised that we are even allowed to do our fourth year anywhere we want. It really is an advantage and you get to experience different health care systems and get more experience that way.

As far as pulling people in for 3rd year exclusively in IA, I agree with the above comments and just wanted to mention that I think they are working on affiliation with Iowa Health System for more spots, but that is rumor.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

Most people when asking where I am from and I say DMU are surprised that we are even allowed to do our fourth year anywhere we want. It really is an advantage and you get to experience different health care systems and get more experience that way.

As far as pulling people in for 3rd year exclusively in IA, I agree with the above comments and just wanted to mention that I think they are working on affiliation with Iowa Health System for more spots, but that is rumor.

Problem is Iowa Health System takes U of Iowa med students. Not sure if U of I has an exclusive clause in their contract that places that take their students can only take U of I students. The U of Minnesota has this and it really limits the places in MN non- U of MN med students can rotate.


The other problem with getting more places to take their students, DMU like most DO schools doesn't pay sites to take their students, whereas most MD schools do. While I would hope that clinicians choose to take students for the purpose of teaching them, if I'm a clinician or the had of a facility and I can choose between taking med students that will provide some extra money for my clinic vs students that won't, I know which side my bread would be buttered on.

 

[sether52do]

Problem is Iowa Health System takes U of Iowa med students. Not sure if U of I has an exclusive clause in their contract that places that take their students can only take U of I students. The U of Minnesota has this and it really limits the places in MN non- U of MN med students can rotate.


The other problem with getting more places to take their students, DMU like most DO schools doesn't pay sites to take their students, whereas most MD schools do. While I would hope that clinicians choose to take students for the purpose of teaching them, if I'm a clinician or the had of a facility and I can choose between taking med students that will provide some extra money for my clinic vs students that won't, I know which side my bread would be buttered on.

Wait a second. I thought that's where our $30k went our 3rd and 4th years?

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

Wait a second. I thought that's where our $30k went our 3rd and 4th years?

So did I until I did some research.

$30k x 400+ 3rd and 4th years= $12 Million coming in.


This helps to explain how in 2004 Dr Reed got $334k a year, Dr Boesler $236k, Dr. Clavenna $330k, Dr Woolley $220k, Dr Hoff $170k, Gov. Branstad $270k +$9,330 for use of a car, Steve Dengle (ExeVP) $216k, MaryAnn Zug (VP Student Services $124k, Dr Yoho $170k, etc. (Figures from 2005 DMU 990 form from Guidestar.org).*
*These numbers do not include contributions to benefit plans ($5,000-$12,500 each)
If you think any of these numbers have declined in the least, you could use some Clozapine for your delusions. Well, except for Boz's salary, at least I hope they're still not paying him $236k a year!

Not to mention the $10,000 DNA ball molecule hanging over the student commons looking like an elementary science fair project gone wrong.

The new building and the new surgery labs are sweet, but I would really like to know where the rest of the money goes to.

 

[misparas]

Everyone pays their professors. I find it very hard to believe that they don't pay rotation sites. However, I've never looked into it. Maybe I'll dig around a bit.

 

[luckystar]

Everyone pays their professors. I find it very hard to believe that they don't pay rotation sites. However, I've never looked into it. Maybe I'll dig around a bit.

It's true. A lot of my attendings at my core sites for 3rd year politely complained about that fact, and one of them actually stopped taking students as "a business decision". I don't blame him. It takes a lot of time to be a good teacher on top of trying to run your own practice.

 

[misparas]

It's true. A lot of my attendings at my core sites for 3rd year politely complained about that fact, and one of them actually stopped taking students as "a business decision". I don't blame him. It takes a lot of time to be a good teacher on top of trying to run your own practice.

That really is hard to believe!

I wouldn't blame them dropping either.

Do all D.O. schools do this?

 

[luckystar]

That really is hard to believe!

I wouldn't blame them dropping either.

Do all D.O. schools do this?

From what I hear after meeting students from other DO schools, yes, it's a common thing.

 

[somnolent]

While I'm sure that many docs are 'volunteering' their time to teach us, I think I heard Dr. Plundo say that we send a good chunk of money over to the Ohio CORE for them to take us.

 

[luckystar]

While I'm sure that many docs are 'volunteering' their time to teach us, I think I heard Dr. Plundo say that we send a good chunk of money over to the Ohio CORE for them to take us.

That's good to hear. Maybe they should consider extending that courtesy to all of their core sites.

In any case, I never felt that the teaching was in any way compromised because of the lack of financial contribution from DMU. They have great docs, and need to find ways to keep them.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

While I'm sure that many docs are 'volunteering' their time to teach us, I think I heard Dr. Plundo say that we send a good chunk of money over to the Ohio CORE for them to take us.

It is my understanding that that money goes to Ohio University who is in charge of the Ohio core, and not to the participating hospitals and clinics.


I can't blame a doc who stops taking students as a business decision. If I was a doc and had the choice between taking students from med School X vs Med School Y and both had the same requirements of me and the only difference was Med School Y gave me something in exchange for my services it wouldn't be a very hard decision.

I don't doubt there are people reading this who will call me selfish or whatever other clever name they come up with, but the medical profession like any other profession is a business. Why would you do something for free when you can get paid for doing the exact same thing? I'm not saying I wouldn't take students without pay, I'm saying if I could take students with pay or students without pay, I know which side my bread is buttered on.

 

[babyruth]

You also have to realize that the money DMU pays its staff is supposed to make up for the lost clinical money that they would be making were they working full time taking hundreds of patients and procedures a week. It is true that some of these docs take patients in addition to the salary they receive from DMU, but admission jobs always pay out a chunk of money (and is another reason I did the MHA program--grin). Dr. Reed, for instance, would make a considerable sum of money being a surgery attending but also takes time out of his schedule to do all of this administration stuff; and in true military fashion, does a thorough job of both.

This has been argued before in other threads, and I do think that they should consider putting a monetary contribution to sites that willingly take students. Private colleges are a money-driven (unfortunately) machine and, though it seems that some of the purchases are frivolous, the college is pushing towards more funding for research etc. It would just be nice if they pushed this money in this direction a little harder (i.e. clinical rotations and science/clinical research).