Do Ad-Coms adjust for the varying rigor at different undergrad schools?

[Falconclaw]

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Some schools are easier than others, in terms of getting good grades in science classes. From my own experience and from what people tell me, mine, Binghamton University, is on the tougher end (the average in Intro:Molecular Bio was a C+). Do medical schools take this into account?

 

[Doudline]

IIRC, LizzyM did say that, from time to time, she recognizes that a lower GPA (read "lower in comparison to the school average", not "3,0" lower) at a college she knows to be very tough is worth more than its immediate numerical value.
But yeah, you know, if you have a lowish GPA (real "lower" this time), no one will have mercy anyway.

 

[gyngyn]

Some schools are easier than others, in terms of getting good grades in science classes. From my own experience and from what people tell me, mine, Binghamton University, is on the tougher end (the average in Intro:Molecular Bio was a C+). Do medical schools take this into account?

Maybe, rarely, but usually pretty late into the process.

Screeners gotta screen.

 

[sinombre]

the average in Intro:Molecular Bio was a C+

...this was what half of the science classes I took curved at. The other half curved at a B-. Binghamton University is nothing special in terms of grade deflation.

 

[alerk323]

yea not going to help

 

[Mornhavon]

.

 

[LizzyM]

And Swarthmore.


One way students can be helped, once they get past the screen, is by LOR writers who describe the grading policy in the class and put the student's performance in context. Some will tell us that the student performed well on the mid-term and was among the top 3 of 300 students on the final exam earning a B+ which placed him in the top 25% of the class where the median grade was C+.

That's a big difference from the school where 90% of the students get A or A-.

 

[osprey099]

And Swarthmore.


One way students can be helped, once they get past the screen, is by LOR writers who describe the grading policy in the class and put the student's performance in context. Some will tell us that the student performed well on the mid-term and was among the top 3 of 300 students on the final exam earning a B+ which placed him in the top 25% of the class where the median grade was C+.

That's a big difference from the school where 90% of the students get A or A-.

Would professors actually mention this kind of stuff in their letters? I thought the letters were supposed to be more about the character of the person and their outside-of-the-classroom activities?

 

[Dbate]

And Swarthmore.


One way students can be helped, once they get past the screen, is by LOR writers who describe the grading policy in the class and put the student's performance in context. Some will tell us that the student performed well on the mid-term and was among the top 3 of 300 students on the final exam earning a B+ which placed him in the top 25% of the class where the median grade was C+.

That's a big difference from the school where 90% of the students get A or A-.

I don't understand why Swarthmore is considered a grade deflated school. Their average GPA is a 3.58*, which is the exact same as my school. But my school is considered to have grade inflation.

*Source: http://www.swarthmore.edu/student-life/health-sciences-office/applying-to-med-school-guide.xml

The average AMCAS GPA for accepted Swarthmore applicants was 3.47. Our experience at Swarthmore is that a strong B+ (3.4) average is a solid basis for applying. This places a student nearly in the top half of the graduating class, which had a median GPA of 3.58 in 2012.

 

[LizzyM]

I don't understand why Swarthmore is considered a grade deflated school. Their average GPA is a 3.58*, which is the exact same as my school. But my school is considered to have grade inflation.

*Source: http://www.swarthmore.edu/student-life/health-sciences-office/applying-to-med-school-guide.xml

They must have a good PR machine, at least at my med school.

 

[LizzyM]

Would professors actually mention this kind of stuff in their letters? I thought the letters were supposed to be more about the character of the person and their outside-of-the-classroom activities?

At some schools, all the professor knows about the student is what is in the grade book and the letter is indicative of that. Some will at least put the grade book in context.

Very few students demonstrate their character (at least not in a positive way) and their outside of the classroom activities to their professors, particularly at large schools. Professors should write what they know which is quite limited in many cases to the student's quizzes and exams, lab reports, papers, class discussion and questions posed during office hours. At some liberal arts colleges, faculty and students have more opportunities for collegiality outside of the classroom and once in awhile I'll see someone mentioning casual conversations enjoyed with a student at a cultural event on campus, etc. but that is rare.

 

[Dbate]

At some schools, all the professor knows about the student is what is in the grade book and the letter is indicative of that. Some will at least put the grade book in context.

Very few students demonstrate their character (at least not in a positive way) and their outside of the classroom activities to their professors, particularly at large schools. Professors should write what they know which is quite limited in many cases to the student's quizzes and exams, lab reports, papers, class discussion and questions posed during office hours. At some liberal arts colleges, faculty and students have more opportunities for collegiality outside of the classroom and once in awhile I'll see someone mentioning casual conversations enjoyed with a student at a cultural event on campus, etc. but that is rare.

Do you think the letter writers hurt or help applicants by only talking about classroom grades?

Should students try to get letters from individuals other than professors?

For me, I only got 1 professor LOR out of the four my school required.

 

[Dbate]

They must have a good PR machine, at least at my med school.

Does your school use a list of schools that they consider grade deflated or inflated? Or is it more of a general sense of which colleges have lower GPAs?

Sadly, I know Yale is considered inflated by alot of schools T_T

 

[Aerus]

I'm pretty sure it becomes an intuition thing just by reviewing applications from different schools for so long. 😛

 

[Captain Sisko]

Does your school use a list of schools that they consider grade deflated or inflated? Or is it more of a general sense of which colleges have lower GPAs?

Sadly, I know Yale is considered inflated by alot of schools T_T

I'm sure they could find out if they really wanted to delve into it. a quick google search gives: http://m.cbsnews.com/fullstory.rbml?catid=37243170&feed_id=76&videofeed=43

i was glad to see my Alma mater in there for deflation. but the big equalizer is the mcat, no?

 

[jr93]

Does your school use a list of schools that they consider grade deflated or inflated? Or is it more of a general sense of which colleges have lower GPAs?

Sadly, I know Yale is considered inflated by alot of schools T_T

Oh lord, this thread again. I get into this with people often so I'll try to make it short. Essentially no one has been thru entire curriculums of a similar field at the same time at more than one school, let alone 20 comparable schools. Since no one has, all these assessments are based on legacy and hearsay and are therefore bogus. Many educated people realize this and ignore "tiers", rankings, etc. If you're worried about it, don't do a difficult science degree and don't go to a school that routinely has low grades. Go to grade inflating schools if you care that much. You have to try to explain a 3.2 regardless of the school and a 3.8 or 3.9 won't be questioned, even at an inflating school.

 

[Falconclaw]

At some schools, all the professor knows about the student is what is in the grade book and the letter is indicative of that. Some will at least put the grade book in context.

Very few students demonstrate their character (at least not in a positive way) and their outside of the classroom activities to their professors, particularly at large schools. Professors should write what they know which is quite limited in many cases to the student's quizzes and exams, lab reports, papers, class discussion and questions posed during office hours. At some liberal arts colleges, faculty and students have more opportunities for collegiality outside of the classroom and once in awhile I'll see someone mentioning casual conversations enjoyed with a student at a cultural event on campus, etc. but that is rare.

I know two professors very well from my old school, Hunter College, and have actually had lunch with each of them more than once, but they did not teach me any of the classes that count for sGPA. One taught me First Amendment Law, and another taught me what was basically Environmental Science (he's a chem PhD, and got some nice award from the American Chemical Society.) Should I get recs from them, or from one of the professors who taught me one of the sGPA classes at Binghamton?

 

[sliceofbread136]

Oh lord, this thread again. I get into this with people often so I'll try to make it short. Essentially no one has been thru entire curriculums of a similar field at the same time at more than one school, let alone 20 comparable schools. Since no one has, all these assessments are based on legacy and hearsay and are therefore bogus. Many educated people realize this and ignore "tiers", rankings, etc. If you're worried about it, don't do a difficult science degree and don't go to a school that routinely has low grades. Go to grade inflating schools if you care that much. You have to try to explain a 3.2 regardless of the school and a 3.8 or 3.9 won't be questioned, even at an inflating school.

Undergraduate college rigor is definitely not completely ignored...

 

[anguisette]

Would professors actually mention this kind of stuff in their letters? I thought the letters were supposed to be more about the character of the person and their outside-of-the-classroom activities?

A couple of my profs mentioned grade deflation at my school. I know they did because my interviewers asked me about it.

Although I think rigor of undergrad isn't completely ignored, don't expect a "boost" even if you did attend one of the famed grade deflation schools. Just accept that your GPA is what it is and focus on other aspects of your application.

 

[LizzyM]

I know two professors very well from my old school, Hunter College, and have actually had lunch with each of them more than once, but they did not teach me any of the classes that count for sGPA. One taught me First Amendment Law, and another taught me what was basically Environmental Science (he's a chem PhD, and got some nice award from the American Chemical Society.) Should I get recs from them, or from one of the professors who taught me one of the sGPA classes at Binghamton?

Letters should come from people who have taught you; it is not necessary that they be people who taught pre-requisites.

 

[HopefulReapp]

They must have a good PR machine, at least at my med school.

What about RPI? 😀 (checking to make sure I have no personally identifying information posted..)

 

[pachewisc]

I don't understand why Swarthmore is considered a grade deflated school. Their average GPA is a 3.58*, which is the exact same as my school. But my school is considered to have grade inflation.

*Source: http://www.swarthmore.edu/student-life/health-sciences-office/applying-to-med-school-guide.xml

You lucky son of a gun(s). Average GPA at my school is a 3.242. In my college (College of Ag. and Life Sci) specifically it was 3.184 last spring.

Source*: http://registrar.wisc.edu/documents/Stats_Scholars_2011-2012Spring.pdf

 

[SquatOrRot]

I can't speak much for adcoms considering you for an interview invite, but one of my interviewers (at the school where I was accepted) acknowledged the difficulty/grade deflation at my undergrad. He noted that he saw very few students from my undergrad with a strong pre-med GPA. The impression he gave me was that he was appreciative of the difficulty of my program and that it shouldn't reflect too negatively on my capabilities.

 

[HopefulReapp]

You lucky son of a gun(s). Average GPA at my school is a 3.242. In my college (College of Ag. and Life Sci) specifically it was 3.184 last spring.

Source*: http://registrar.wisc.edu/documents/Stats_Scholars_2011-2012Spring.pdf

At least yours isn't the number one for grade deflation in the north east, apparently. Average GPA at mine is a 3.05.

 

[Soulstice]

I don't understand why Swarthmore is considered a grade deflated school. Their average GPA is a 3.58*, which is the exact same as my school. But my school is considered to have grade inflation.

*Source: http://www.swarthmore.edu/student-life/health-sciences-office/applying-to-med-school-guide.xml

WHAT? My school's average GPA is a 3.2-3.3!!

 

[Dbate]

You lucky son of a gun(s). Average GPA at my school is a 3.242. In my college (College of Ag. and Life Sci) specifically it was 3.184 last spring.

Source*: http://registrar.wisc.edu/documents/Stats_Scholars_2011-2012Spring.pdf

That's not a fair comparison:

Wisconsin:
Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile
SAT Critical Reading: 550 / 670
SAT Math: 620 / 740
SAT Writing: 590 / 680
ACT Composite: 26 / 30

http://collegeapps.about.com/od/collegeprofiles/p/U_Wisconsin.htm

Yale

SAT Critical Reading: 700 / 790
SAT Math: 700 / 800
SAT Writing: 710 / 790
ACT Composite: 31 / 35
% of Students in Top 5% of High School Class: 93% (of those reporting class rank)
% of Students Valedictorian or Salutatorian: 60% (of those reporting class rank) (admittedly anecdotal)

http://collegeapps.about.com/od/collegeprofiles/p/Yale_profile.htm

The real basis for determining whether grade inflation exists is to compare two students with equivalent ability (in terms of ACT/SAT etc.) and compare their GPAs at the different schools.

The top 25% of students at Wisconsin would be below the bottom 25% of students at a school like Yale, so comparing the average GPA doesn't make much sense.

 

[Dbate]

Also, the 3.58 GPA is the average for the entire school.

All science classes at Yale are curved to a B+ (GPA=3.33). To get an A-, you have to be in the top 40%. To get an A, you have to be in the top 15%.

Being in the top 15% of a school like Yale is probably harder than being in the top 15% at pretty much every other school in the country.

So the line about grade inflation is bogus when you consider how hard it is to get an A or A-.

 

[red doctober]

The top 25% of students at Wisconsin would be below the bottom 25% of students at a school like Yale, so comparing the average GPA doesn't make much sense.

Yeah, because hsGPA and ACT scores are wonderful predictors of intelligence or academic ability. Also, do you have the slightest clue how percentiles actually work?

I agree with what you're saying, but that statement was a little much...

 

[Redpancreas]

AdCom at UMich said that they keep GPA data from various schools and see how it correlates with success in medical school.

 

[pachewisc]

Also, the 3.58 GPA is the average for the entire school.

All science classes at Yale are curved to a B+ (GPA=3.33). To get an A-, you have to be in the top 40%. To get an A, you have to be in the top 15%.

Being in the top 15% of a school like Yale is probably harder than being in the top 15% at pretty much every other school in the country.

So the line about grade inflation is bogus when you consider how hard it is to get an A or A-.

And 3.242 is the average at my ENTIRE school.

You're perpetuating an argument that cannot be proven. Until there is substantial statistical data that proves that a students that are average at Ivys and earning their 3.6s would easily earn all As at a top public university like Wisconsin, your argument is unfounded. Sorry.

Also the fact that you proudly claim that you attended HYPMS in your MDApps doesn't help lend to your argument because of your bias.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Your GPA is normalized to the US news ranking

 

[Dbate]

And 3.242 is the average at my ENTIRE school.

You're perpetuating an argument that cannot be proven. Until there is substantial statistical data that proves that a students that are average at Ivys and earning their 3.6s would easily earn all As at a top public university like Wisconsin, your argument is unfounded. Sorry.

Also the fact that you proudly claim that you attended HYPMS in your MDApps doesn't help lend to your argument because of your bias.

The only empirical research I found was based on a study conducted at the University of Orgeon:

"The University of Oregon is home to Clark Honors College (CHC), one of the oldest honors colleges in the country. Students must apply separately to CHC, and admission is competitive:enrolled students have average SAT of 1340 and unweighted high school GPA of 3.9. In terms of selectivity, the CHC is roughly comparable to Cornell or UC Berkeley. CHC students must fulfill additional rigorous course requirements beyond those required by their major. Their willingness to do so suggests that, in terms of drive and ambition, they are more similar to students at elite universities than other UO students with similar SAT and high school GPAs.


Using our data, we can estimate how a population of elite college students (e.g., from the Ivy League) might perform at a typical state university. Students from universities at least as selective as the CHC would be expected to earn an average upper GPA similar to the 3.7 of CHC students. This suggests that an average grade of B+ or even A- does not constitute unreasonable grade inflation at an elite university, if the grade averages are meant to be commensurate (in the performance or subject mastery they represent) with those at less selective universities.

Source: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1004.2731v1.pdf

 

[Dbate]

And 3.242 is the average at my ENTIRE school.

You're perpetuating an argument that cannot be proven. Until there is substantial statistical data that proves that a students that are average at Ivys and earning their 3.6s would easily earn all As at a top public university like Wisconsin, your argument is unfounded. Sorry.

Also the fact that you proudly claim that you attended HYPMS in your MDApps doesn't help lend to your argument because of your bias.

Bias doesn't matter if you have objective data to back it up.

In that case, what you call bias is simply reality.

 

[Dbate]

Yeah, because hsGPA and ACT scores are wonderful predictors of intelligence or academic ability. Also, do you have the slightest clue how percentiles actually work?

I agree with what you're saying, but that statement was a little much...

I didn't say that. The data did.

The only objective metrics one has to compare the academic ability of two populations of students placed the top 25% of Wisconsin students below the bottom 25% of Yale students.

 

[pachewisc]

The only empirical research I found was based on a study conducted at the University of Orgeon:



Source: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1004.2731v1.pdf

Bias doesn't matter if you have objective data to back it up.

In that case, what you call bias is simply reality.

 

[red doctober]

I didn't say that. The data did.

The only objective metrics one has to compare the academic ability of two populations of students placed the top 25% of Wisconsin students below the bottom 25% of Yale students.

The data you presented indicates that nearly the entire top 25% of accepted Wisconsin students have higher ACT scores than the bottom 25% of those at Yale. It does in no way say that the bottom 25% of students at Yale are better students (as you indicate by better ACT scores, which in my opinion is pretty ridiculous) than the top 25% at Wisconsin. The top student at Wisconsin could also have been the top student at Yale if he or she would have gone to Yale. I'm sure there are people at Wisconsin with 4.0s and perfect or nearly perfect ACT scores but decided to go to Wisconsin over "top" schools for whatever reason. I'm not arguing that the overall playing field at Wisconsin is going to be equal to that at Yale, but your conclusion based on the data, "The top 25% of students at Wisconsin would be below the bottom 25% of students at a school like Yale," is just plain wrong.

Simple explanation of what the percentiles tell us: not everyone in the bottom 25% at Yale has a 31 ACT (there will be a distribution of ACT scores with 31 being the upper boundary) and not everyone in the top 25% at Wisconsin has a 30 ACT (there will be a distribution of ACT scores with a 30 being the lower boundary)

 

[Dbate]

The data you presented indicates that nearly the entire top 25% of accepted Wisconsin students have higher ACT scores than the bottom 25% of those at Yale. It does in no way say that the bottom 25% of students at Yale are better students (as you indicate by better ACT scores, which in my opinion is pretty ridiculous) than the top 25% at Wisconsin. The top student at Wisconsin could also have been the top student at Yale if he or she would have gone to Yale. I'm sure there are people at Wisconsin with 4.0s and perfect or nearly perfect ACT scores but decided to go to Wisconsin over "top" schools for whatever reason. I'm not arguing that the overall playing field at Wisconsin is going to be equal to that at Yale, but your conclusion based on the data, "The top 25% of students at Wisconsin would be below the bottom 25% of students at a school like Yale," is just plain wrong.

Is there any other way to evaluate the academic caliber of high school students beside GPA and SAT/ACT score? Let me know and then get back to me.

Simple explanation of what the percentiles tell us: not everyone in the bottom 25% at Yale has a 31 ACT (there will be a distribution of ACT scores with 31 being the upper boundary) and not everyone in the top 25% at Wisconsin has a 30 ACT (there will be a distribution of ACT scores with a 30 being the lower boundary)

The percentiles represent boundary conditions and thus are sufficient to estimate the lines of overlap between the populations.

In order to be in the Top 25% of Wisconsin students one would need at least a 30. That score would be below the Bottom 25% of Yale students. Regardless of the distribution about those scores, the boundaries were the basis of comparison I was referring to.

 

[Dbate]

http://imgur.com/gallery/vdv5L.

 

[red doctober]

Is there any other way to evaluate the academic caliber of high school students beside GPA and SAT/ACT score? Let me know and then get back to me.

The percentiles represent boundary conditions and thus are sufficient to estimate the lines of overlap between the populations.

In order to be in the Top 25% of Wisconsin students one would need at least a 30. That score would be below the Bottom 25% of Yale students. Regardless of the distribution about those scores, the boundaries were the basis of comparison I was referring to.

You're wrong. Live up to your mistakes and move on.

 

[red doctober]

How about this for evaluation of academics, MCAT score? Pachewisc got a 35 on the MCAT, the same score that you got. So much for all HYPSM students being better than all the public school students.

 

[Dbate]

You're wrong. Live up to your mistakes and move on.

You haven't offered a shred of reasoning to believe that SAT/ACT and gpa aren't good metrics of caliber. Nor intelligently refuted anything I said.

But I wouldn't expect anything less from a state school kid.


P.S. Yeah, I am that big of a dick.

 

[red doctober]

You haven't offered a shred of reasoning to believe that SAT/ACT and gpa aren't good metrics of caliber. Nor intelligently refuted anything I said.

But I wouldn't expect anything less from a state school kid.


P.S. Yeah, I am that big of a dick.

Who said I went to a state school?

 

[Dbate]

How about this for evaluation of academics, MCAT score? Pachewisc got a 35 on the MCAT, the same score that you got. So much for all HYPSM students being better than all the public school students.

Um, the average MCAT of Yale students is a 34. What do you think the average MCAT score of Wisconsin premeds is?


But one person at Wisconsin got a 35. STOP DA PRESSES!

 

[red doctober]

Um, the average MCAT of Yale students is a 34. What do you think the average MCAT score of Wisconsin premeds is?


But one person at Wisconsin got a 35. STOP DA PRESSES!

Let me repeat what you said: "The top 25% of students at Wisconsin would be below the bottom 25% of students at a school like Yale."

 

[Dbate]

Let me repeat what you said: "The top 25% of students at Wisconsin would be below the bottom 25% of students at a school like Yale."

You are right. As I re-read it, what I wrote is not correct.

I should have said:

Over 75% of Wisconsin students are below the Bottom 25% of Yale students.

 

[red doctober]

You are right. As I re-read it, what I wrote is not correct.

I should have said:

Over 75% of Wisconsin students are below the Bottom 25% of Yale students.

Finally, you get my initial argument. Way to live up to it

 

[nabilesmail]

I'd rather compete with the top 75% of a state school than the bottom 25% of Yale- Just saying lol - hell even the top 10% of a state school

 

[Anathema]

I went to Wisconsin and got a 31 on my ACT and and a 33 on my MCAT.

I'd still like to think a highish GPA at any state school is better than any lowish score <3.5-3.6 at a top 20.

 

[SilverCat]

I don't think undergrad difficulty plays that big a factor in med school admissions. I came from a grade- deflating school where the average class grade was curved to B/B-, and I wouldn't say I was cut slack for my mediocre GPA. Our bio classes were particularly nasty as well--Cell Bio had no curve, and about half the class wound up with a C.

 

[Plue00]

Does your school use a list of schools that they consider grade deflated or inflated? Or is it more of a general sense of which colleges have lower GPAs?

Sadly, I know Yale is considered inflated by alot of schools T_T

I wouldn't worry too much about people saying Yale = no name school in terms of rigor.

At the end of the day, adcoms know that top schools generally have better students and harder classes. You'll never get through to SDN about how it's harder at a top school compared to an average school, as most people here don't really go to a top school.

I go to a top 25 school and thought our tests were hard. Then I saw tests from top 10 schools and it made my school's tests look relatively easy.

There's a reason that the all the state med schools in my state are filled about 75% top schools and 25% average schools. Adcoms that came to visit my school said they understand the rigor of most top schools due to grade deflation. People argue that top schools have grade inflation, but they don't take into account that you're competing with some of the smartest people in the world to get into the top 15-20% of the class.

A B- average at a Yale class =/= a B- average at an average school.

Also, the "MCAT standardization" crap is getting really old. The MCAT tests you on bio, chem, orgo and physics. That's 4 classes in your undergrad. It doesn't take any other class into account such as upper level math or bio classes...