Do Ad Coms Really Look at These Things ?

[Putkernerinthehall]

Call me skeptical, but do Adcoms really look at undergraduate curriculum rigor, specific courses taken, course loads, and individual course grades received all that much ? I mean with the volume of apps, do they take the time to see that, oh, this person went to a very demanding school, took lots of upper level science, and killed it with full course loads ? Or is it more of a quick glance (check cGPA, sGPA, and maybe if basic pre-reqs met) ?

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[KnightDoc]

Call me skeptical, but do Adcoms really look at undergraduate curriculum rigor, specific courses taken, course loads, and individual course grades received all that much ? I mean with the volume of apps, do they take the time to see that, oh, this person went to a very demanding school, took lots of upper level science, and killed it with full course loads ? Or is it more of a quick glance (check cGPA, sGPA, and maybe if basic pre-reqs met) ?

I'm certainly no adcom, but why would you think this is any less important than any other part of an application, and why would it take any more time than reading essays or reviewing ECs? How long can it possibly take to review a transcript? One minute? Two tops? And, why wouldn't they value a challenging curriculum more than an easy one, the same way certain ECs are valued more than others? This is actually one of the only things I take for granted in the process! 😎

Other than big time, name brand schools like WashU or MIT, I doubt they actually know which no-name school is demanding and which is easy, but, other than that, they can tell who skated and who worked their butt off. Does it matter, as long as you did well? Maybe not, but I'm sure they look and I'm sure they know. But, as we all know, academics are only one input into the holistic process, so it's not the be all and end all. But it probably is the single most important thing, along with the MCAT, so, as a future applicant, I'm acting as though it matters a lot. YMMV.

 

[Goro]

One of the most dangerous, self-sabotaging mindsets a pre-med could have is to indulge in the "they don't have time for that!" mindset.

Rest assured, I and my colleagues do dissect out what your courses are and what they are like. I have one colleague who will routinely reject fine candidates simply because they haven't taken anatomy. Said colleague feels very strongly about anatomy. We then have to rescue the candidates from rejection.

I, for one, particularly look at the Bio courses taken, and the grades received. I indeed look at course load, the gestalt of grades, seek out any rising or sinking GPA trends, and also look for interesting looking courses, because I can easily come up with interview questions based upon your course subjects and titles. I had a fin time one with someone who took a course on "Comic books and literature". And no, I'm not sharing questions.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

OP here. Good to hear, hope ya'll are right. I've been visualizing a blunt force sorting algorithm that simply aggregates on GPAs and MCAT (maybe subsections) and puts people into buckets because it's easy to do and leaves the Ad Com labor hours for essays. Glad to hear there is more scrutiny given to grades and differentiating between a rigorous T20-30 undergrad and the other 200-300 schools out there.

 

[Goro]

4.0 automatons are a dime-a-dozen. Hence, we need to look at more than just two metrics

 

[LaughingGas10]

OP here. Good to hear, hope ya'll are right. I've been visualizing a blunt force sorting algorithm that simply aggregates on GPAs and MCAT (maybe subsections) and puts people into buckets because it's easy to do and leaves the Ad Com labor hours for essays. Glad to hear there is more scrutiny given to grades and differentiating between a rigorous T20-30 undergrad and the other 200-300 schools out there.

I dont know that all the T20-30 undergrads are rigorous. Some of them are notorious for GPA upgrading, and are recognized as such by ADCOMs.

Some of the flagship state undergrad honors students definitely have a more rigorous training than a few of the softball T20-30.

 

[deleted1027026]

I dont know that all the T20-30 undergrads are rigorous. Some of them are notorious for GPA upgrading, and are recognized as such by ADCOMs.

Some of the flagship state undergrad honors students definitely have a more rigorous training than a few of the softball T20-30.

Mind sharing which ones?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I look at undergrad attended. I look to see which pre reqs are taken in summer school or at a CC. I look at how many Bio courses were taken, and which ones. So don't think we only look at MCAT and GPA. This scrutiny often reveals the answer to the "Why the great GPA and low MCAT" question.

 

[LaughingGas10]

Mind sharing which ones?

Nationally the GPA has trended up over the last 30 years, Students would proudly display a B+ in a rigorous biochem or organic chemistry class , to now where we are getting questions on SDN, should we take a W instead of a B+ in the same rigorous class.

These graphs from National Trends in Grade Inflation, American Colleges and Universities will help explain the trend at some of the schools. The article, while dated is very informative as to why GPA can be deceptive from some of the schools. While not singling out any school, if you look at the graph of private schools above, Brown has an average GPA of > 3.6 and is continuing to trend up (most recent report shows average graduating GPA of 3.73 at Brown The Top 15 Universities with the Highest Average GPAs) . The upswing in some of the public schools is not as robust.

Having said that, I would agree with OP that there is a slight bias towards elite UG schools, however there is NO widespread discrimination against FLAGSHIP state public schools (especially the honors programs within these universities) which continue to be large feeders into the medical school system (university of Florida, UNC, Arizona state university, UC San Diego) and all of them continue to matriculate huge numbers of medical students. If you look at the recent ADCOM surveys from the AAMC, the eliteness of the undergraduate school, is fairly low down in ratings as to what is prioritized in an application.

 

[NicMouse64]

Had a 3.4 GPA but did engineering. Had multiple acceptances to MD school most likely due to my 514 MCAT. I probably could have gotten a higher ranked school if I had a 3.8 but I think once the interview has been offered it is scrutinized more who "gamed the system". Also have inside scoop on adcom at my school.

 

[Med Ed]

OP here. Good to hear, hope ya'll are right. I've been visualizing a blunt force sorting algorithm that simply aggregates on GPAs and MCAT (maybe subsections) and puts people into buckets because it's easy to do and leaves the Ad Com labor hours for essays. Glad to hear there is more scrutiny given to grades and differentiating between a rigorous T20-30 undergrad and the other 200-300 schools out there.

It doesn't take very long to read essays, in part because the large majority of them are interchangeable.

There are several thousand colleges and universities in the country.

 

[MedSchoolHopeful777]

Does post-acceptance GPA and course rigor matter at all?

 

[Goro]

Does post-acceptance GPA and course rigor matter at all?

Only if you muck up pre reqs

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

I dont know that all the T20-30 undergrads are rigorous. Some of them are notorious for GPA upgrading, and are recognized as such by ADCOMs.

Some of the flagship state undergrad honors students definitely have a more rigorous training than a few of the softball T20-30.

My reference to rigorous T20-30 schools was intended to differentiate from those T20-30 that are grade inflators. It seems that Ad Coms should recognize the truly challenging undergraduate programs and weigh student performance at such schools accordingly. I'm just not sure they do.

 

[LaughingGas10]

My reference to rigorous T20-30 schools was intended to differentiate from those T20-30 that are grade inflators. It seems that Ad Coms should recognize the truly challenging undergraduate programs and weigh student performance at such schools accordingly. I'm just not sure they do.

With the number of undergraduate institutions and the number of different majors, with so many permutations and combinations, it is impossible for individual ADCOMs to devise a system to understand the true rigor of an undergraduate education or the complete meaning of the GPA.

There are 2 checks in place, which was built to prevent this from being a major issue

1. Medical schools transitioned to a holistic review of the application with multiple metrices (some academic and others not), thus reducing the relative importance of the GPA , the eliteness of the UG school and the rigor of the undergraduate study, as being an overshadowing individual metrix. These are still important pieces of the application, but making it holistic has made it less important.

2. The AAMC designed the MCAT as a fair comparator tool, to compare the academic understanding of the applicant. While not a perfect tool, it is one of the best admission tools, thus the importance of the MCAT in your application process.

 

[KnightDoc]

My reference to rigorous T20-30 schools was intended to differentiate from those T20-30 that are grade inflators. It seems that Ad Coms should recognize the truly challenging undergraduate programs and weigh student performance at such schools accordingly. I'm just not sure they do.

They do, but the effect is not as great as you might imagine. It has been widely reported that schools like JHU and WashU are excellent, rigorous and produce lots of successful med school applicants. Their average GPAs for successful applicants are below the national average, but not by much. I don't have the numbers at my fingertips, but it might be something like 0.2. So, at the end of the day, a 3.5 at WashU =/= 4.0 at Kutztown, even though it might be way tougher to get, whereas a 3.9 at Hopkins is definitely > 4.0 at Kutztown.