Do ALL schools consider you for MD if don't get into MSTP?

Discussion in 'Physician Scientists' started by physicsMD, Jul 19, 2002.

  1. physicsMD

    physicsMD Senior Member
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    Hey guys,
    just wondering if there were any exceptions to this, what seems to be, general rule. I don't want to apply MSTP somewhere and figure they will automatically consider me for MD if I don't get into their MSTP. Some web sites, such as USC's, are not so clear on how this works. Are there any places where you have to apply to both? Or you can only apply to one or the other and if you don't get in they won't consider you for MD? I think Hopkins works this way.
     
  2. Neuronix

    Neuronix Total nerd
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    University of Chicago (Pritzker) sez:

    "Please note that application to the MSTP precludes consideration for Regular Admission: unsuccessful applications to MSTP will not subsequently be considered for Regular Admissions."
     
  3. OP
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    physicsMD

    physicsMD Senior Member
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    That sucks, can you apply to both MD and MD/PhD or just one or the other? Is this the only place that does that?
     
  4. none

    none 1K Member
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    Wow. That is VERY rare and very odd. Most schools think that it'll be to their benefit if you get in regular MD and then go MD/PhD later. They get a researcher and didn't have to pay for their first two years! Most schools will automatically consider you for regular MD once they have decided not to accept you for MD/PhD. Some require you to check some extra boxes, like UCSF.
     
  5. Vader

    Vader Dark Lord of the Sith
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    Well, instead of having us guess which programs you are applying to, you should just check out the web sites of the programs you are interested in. If they don't say explicitly, you can always make a phone call and find out.
     
  6. Gradient Echo

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    Hopkins does in fact consider you for regular MD if MSTP does not accept you. As somebody else mentioned, I think its becoming rare for schools to not do this.
     
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  7. OP
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    physicsMD

    physicsMD Senior Member
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    OK, so as far as anyone knows U of Chicago is the only program that doesn't consider you for MD if you get in MSTP. Thanks for your replies, its a lot easier than calling 20 schools.
     
  8. Bikini Princess

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    It's likely that you can apply regular MD to Univ. Chicago as well as MSTP. I think their reasons for this seemingly strange policy probably involve the composition of the admissions committees which review the MSTP candidates.
     
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  9. jot

    jot

    nah - they explicitly say that you can't apply to both at the same time. thats cool.
     
  10. DarkChild

    DarkChild Senior Member
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    look - few people here might believe me, but I really dont think that if u get rejected from the MD/PhD pool, you get automatically moved into the MD pool AND recieve equal and fair consideration.
    well - the only definitive exception I can provide is WashU and that is one MSTP program (possibly the only) that really has its
    sh!t together.
    LAst year I applied to four schools - all MSTP:
    Harvard, JHU, Penn and WashU. I didnt hear a word from Harvard and JHU, until I received their rejection letters. At Penn - I was offered an MD/PhD interview, and WashU I got an MD interview (which I turned down)
    It might sound arrogant - but I was surprised I didnt get an interview at Harvard or JHU; as I see it, if you're good enough to be considered by 2 of those guys - the other two, H and JHU should at least have had me on their radar screens.
    So just take it with a grain of salt when they say - oh we automatically consider you....
    I know that for sure, while I am extremely interested in an MD/PhD program - I am only applying to MDs. I'll get in somewhere and then start flexing to move into an MD/PhD program. As I see it, there is WAY less risk that way.
     
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  11. Neuronix

    Neuronix Total nerd
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    This is why I applied MD/PhD to 15 schools. Oh the pitfalls of applying to all top-10/dream schools. You are probably right though, I bet alot of those schools don't give you equal consideration for the MD. My only question for you is how late in the game did you apply? Perhaps that had something to do with it.

    Better luck this time.
     
  12. Gradient Echo

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    I think DarkChild has a valid point. At Hopkins, it says they will move your application to the MD pool "at the discretion of the MD/PhD committee" or something to that effect. So unless they give us more info, I'm not sure how selective they are about that transition.

    I was offered an MD interview at Harvard (turned it down) but never got an MD/PhD interview offer. For a non-rolling admissions school like Harvard, I would guess that I would have an equal chance at getting admitted as an MD candidate as others, but for rolling admissions places, this wont be true. Timing is much more important at these places, and it makes a big difference on how long it takes the MD/PhD people to throw your app back at the regular MD people.
     
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  13. none

    none 1K Member
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    Yeah, it could slow down your app, but I think that the statistical benefits of applying for those extra MD/PhD seats more than outweighs the harm of getting your MD app in late.
     
  14. OP
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    physicsMD

    physicsMD Senior Member
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    You guys are freaking me out! The truth is, this whole process is so random that you can't necessarily attribute your not getting an interview for regular MD to the idea that the MSTP don't have their **** together. When I talked to the MSTP admissions dean at Sinai, I told her I was really worried about that, she was very convicted in her response that it doesn't hurt you in the MD admissions process to be rejected by MSTP time wise. Personally, I have so much damn research experience that if MSTP didn't want me it would probably be because I didn't fit the MD profile in some way, in which case it would make sense for me to not really be considered for MD either. By the way, do you guys think it helps to be a woman applying for MSTP?
     
  15. jot

    jot

    yes it does help to be a woman - and it should. while disparities in medical education are close to being bridged at the medical school level (not in some residencies) - mstp's are still largely imbalanced. at home i have some empirical evidence regarding this topic - but just take a look at an mstp students page of a program - it isn't hard to see. the usual responses to this are that women don't want reserach as much/too long and conflicts with family activities/not as driven etc... but there are powerful arguments against this. i came into a women studies class on history of women in science with a few unapologetically "logical" points of view or so i thought - but after a couple months i had done a 180 in thinking. i have some excellent sources at home - i'll post them when i get a chance.

    nancy andrews, head of harvards mstp wrote an article in nature medicine specifially regarding women in mstp's - the link is on the forum do a search. she was also part of a consortium of women at mit and harvard that approached the administration regarding documented biases with respect to lab space/tenure/pay/treatment etc... thuogh this is ahead of the game a bit from admission into grad school, its effects are not far displaced.

    as other evidence - take a look at stanfords internal document -
    "sex" is #7 while disadvantaged status and urm are 8 and 9 respectively.

    ok enough for now ...
     
  16. Bikini Princess

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    No doubt - NIH has been putting pressure on mstp coms to accept more women, since there has been a huge drop in the number of women applicants in the past few years.

    There are reasons less women are applying though. Most are intimidated by the tremendous time commitment - 8+ years, in reality, for most programs. It's daunting if you want to have a family. MD & PhD programs aren't very well integrated, especially at non-top 10 schools. PhD committees are demanding too much time from MD/PhD students, often making them use extra time going through extra lab rotations, graduate courses, etc..and this trend, oddly enough, is getting worse, not better. (I based this info on some NIH article I read recently, I forget the link though).
     
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  17. OP
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    physicsMD

    physicsMD Senior Member
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    Hey guys,
    well, being a female grad student in biomedical physics, there definitely aren't that many women, and I have felt that I am in somewhat of a boys club sometimes, but I think for the most part I have been very lucky with my professors and mentors. But a friend of mine who is an MSTP here (UCLA) actually overheard the MSTP director say something to the effect of you could only expect so much from women and minorities because of their capabilities. I was shocked, especially since I consider myself to be pretty damn smart. I almost wanted to go spout off nuclear physics to him just to show him what an ignorant comment that was. As a woman I may have a card to play in terms of admissions, but when it comes down to positions of power its still very much a (white) man's show, hopefully that will come to change.
     
  18. dr kevin40

    dr kevin40 Senior Member
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    agreed physics4md

    heard that many times b4. that they don't think women can do the job b/cthey have other concerns like raising families and such.
     
  19. Neuronix

    Neuronix Total nerd
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    Ressurecting this thread... It's still relevant and my conversation with JHU reminded me of this.

    Basically you are not going to get a MD interview at Hopkins unless you interviewed for MD/PhD and were rejected. From what I have been told from a person this happened to, this has only happened to 2 people this year and it is very rare. In my case, I am on "hold for interview" for MSTP, which means there is almost 0 chance I will receive an interview (according to the director) with their MSTP and I will not receive an interview from the MD program (whether or not I was actually reviewed by the MD program, she would not say).

    So I think in the end if you apply to Hopkins MSTP, unless something rare happens, it is a MD/PhD only application.
     
  20. CaNEM

    CaNEM Senior Member
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    Right. Was three people actually, until one of the three accidentally hung up on them! You know who you are! ;)
     
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  21. Simon

    Simon Member
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    Wait a second. Are you guys saying that the JHU MSTP has an almost 100% acceptance rate from interviews?!?

    ~Simon
     
  22. Neuronix

    Neuronix Total nerd
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    No. What I'm saying is that if you apply for the JHU MSTP, you will only be considered for the MSTP except for rare cases. You will probably not be considered for the MD. Most schools at least claim to consider you for the MD as well (however, I don't believe it in some other cases).
     
  23. CaNEM

    CaNEM Senior Member
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    I heard that until last year JHU didn't consider ANYONE for MD admission if you were rejected from the MSTP, and that the NIH didn't like this so they started to give a few people the oppurtunity. However, that has only translated into a very small percentage of applicants getting considered for MD. I also heard their policy is like that because they only want applicants who are dedicated to doing the MD/PhD and not those lookig for a free ride, but more than happy to do MD only if it doesnt work out. Can anyone from Hopkins confirm or correct this?

    Also, anyone know if anyone has ever actually gotten an MD acceptance (not just consideration)at JHU after getting rejected MSTP?
     
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