DO and USMLE

[PatchAdamsFan]

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As more and more DO students are taking the USMLE, a handful is reaching scores in 250+, which is far higher than the majority of MD students, and go on to match into prestigious residencies. I was wondering why is there a DO stigma for them, when they (some individuals) kill the boards which supposedly are the barriers to an MD? These boards are part of the stigma associated with MD pride, so how can they be looked down on?

 

[Winged Scapula]

MD pride has relatively little to do with the USMLE.

Old school types who would look down upon DOs did so because of the belief that the education and training was sub-par. That is no longer true.

Moving to Pre-Allo forum.

 

[Hemorrage]

You have to realize that the DO students that take the USMLE are self-selecting meaning they opt in to take the STEP 1 because they want to. These students are typically way more motivated and want to enter an ACGME residency.

 

[AestheticGod]

You have to realize that the DO students that take the USMLE are self-selecting meaning they opt in to take the STEP 1 because they want to. These students are typically way more motivated and want to enter an ACGME residency.

wait, are you telling me that DO students aren't REQUIRED to take the USMLE like MD students?

 

[Hemorrage]

wait, are you telling me that DO students aren't REQUIRED to take the USMLE like MD students?

yes as far as i know DO schools REQUIRE only the COMLEX, however, the USMLE is typically taken only by DO students who want to apply to ACGME residencies. This will change however, as by 2015 all residencies including the AOA accredited ones are becoming ACGME.

 

[dannybht]

Old school types who would look down upon DOs did so because of the belief that the education and training was sub-par. That is no longer true

.

Troll alert. This person is copying people's responses word for word. lol

 

[NeuroLAX]

wait, are you telling me that DO students aren't REQUIRED to take the USMLE like MD students?

yes as far as i know DO schools REQUIRE only the COMLEX, however, the USMLE is typically taken only by DO students who want to apply to ACGME residencies. This will change however, as by 2015 all residencies including the AOA accredited ones are becoming ACGME.

Didn't think this would come as a surprise to anyone. Nevertheless, osteopathic students must successfully complete the COMLEX exams for licensure and graduation. As Hemorrage stated, many DO students take the USMLE as well. However, this is not entirely necessary because many residency programs accept both USMLE and/or COMLEX.

 

[Midifelder10]

Just talked to a 2nd year DO and was informed that the bias against DO is mostly thing of the past. Little bit is there but not overwhelming. The only hurdle DO face is the rotations in 3rs and 4th year.

 

[DolFAN]

Just talked to a 2nd year DO and was informed that the bias against DO is mostly thing of the past. Little bit is there but not overwhelming. The only hurdle DO face is the rotations in 3rs and 4th year.

What hurdle's do DO's face in their rotations?

 

[Midifelder10]

What hurdle's do DO's face in their rotations?

Mostly access to a teaching hospital nearby. Other than that everything else is fine. Some of them have to go far away for rotations but once in rotations even MD's physicians are impressed with lot of the DO's. You are not at any disadvantage and the only thing holding you back is your own effort.

 

[pre med 2014]

yes as far as i know DO schools REQUIRE only the COMLEX, however, the USMLE is typically taken only by DO students who want to apply to ACGME residencies. This will change however, as by 2015 all residencies including the AOA accredited ones are becoming ACGME.

So after the merger does anybody know what test DOs will have to take? COMPLEX or USMLE?

 

[sliceofbread136]

Well it's because DOs are basically chiropractors who don't use science while MDs are actually smart.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So after the merger does anybody know what test DOs will have to take? COMPLEX or USMLE?

Realistically both.

 

[pre med 2014]

Realistically both.

Elaborate

 

[sliceofbread136]

Elaborate

Basically DOs aren't very smart so we make them take more tests.

 

[Bluto385]

Well it's because DOs are basically chiropractors who don't use science while MDs are actually smart.

Forreal. MDs use like science and stuff.

 

[Brachyury]

MD pride has relatively little to do with the USMLE.

Old school types who would look down upon DOs did so because of the belief that the education and training was sub-par. That is no longer true.

Moving to Pre-Allo forum.

Yeah, it's not like there are still DO schools that use private practice preceptorships for core rotations, and it's not like a majority of DO residencies are still at community hospitals with low patient volumes and little patient diversity.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Elaborate

Some programs are fine with Comlex. But now that there's a single match it's best to take the USMLE so you can have a shot at programs that either dont accept it or are unfamiliar.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Yeah, it's not like there are still DO schools that use private practice preceptorships for core rotations, and it's not like a majority of DO residencies are still at community hospitals with low patient volumes and little patient diversity.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. These things still happen. They are not problems at the better DO schools.

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[pre med 2014]

Some programs are fine with Comlex. But now that there's a single match it's best to take the USMLE so you can have a shot at programs that either dont accept it or are unfamiliar.

Right, this is how it is now. After the merger it seems like everyone would have to take USMLE only

 

[DrBumblebee]

Right, this is how it is now. After the merger it seems like everyone would have to take USMLE only

+1

That's what I'm expecting. It will be a great equalizer before residency.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Yeah, it's not like there are still DO schools that use private practice preceptorships for core rotations, and it's not like a majority of DO residencies are still at community hospitals with low patient volumes and little patient diversity.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. These things still happen. They are not problems at the better DO schools.

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This.

Those problems have been recognized but they are not exclusive to osteopathic medicine and are certainly not found at the majority of DO programs.

In addition, "community hospital" does not equate to low patient volume or low patient diversity. I might even venture that the "diversity" you see at large academic hospitals isn't necessary; how many patients with rare diseases do you really need to see? I trained at a large academic hospital and can tell you that doing tons of Whipples or PSARPs at the exclusion of open cholecystectomies and appendectomies is not necessarily helpful.

Most importantly, given the fact that the ACGME, AOA and AACOM are moving toward a unified accreditation GME system tells me that people more knowledgeable about this than us feel that the undergrad educational system is equivalent.

Honestly, this anti-DO attitude pervades only the pre-med community. Get back to us in 10 years and tell us whether or not you even know which one of your colleagues is a DO or MD.

 

[GopherMD]

This.

Those problems have been recognized but they are not exclusive to osteopathic medicine and are certainly not found at the majority of DO programs.

In addition, "community hospital" does not equate to low patient volume or low patient diversity. I might even venture that the "diversity" you see at large academic hospitals isn't necessary; how many patients with rare diseases do you really need to see? I trained at a large academic hospital and can tell you that doing tons of Whipples or PSARPs at the exclusion of open cholecystectomies and appendectomies is not necessarily helpful.

Most importantly, given the fact that the ACGME, AOA and AACOM are moving toward a unified accreditation GME system tells me that people more knowledgeable about this than us feel that the undergrad educational system is equivalent.

Honestly, this anti-DO attitude pervades only the pre-med community. Get back to us in 10 years and tell us whether or not you even know which one of your colleagues is a DO or MD.

+1. Well said.

 

[Midifelder10]

This.

Those problems have been recognized but they are not exclusive to osteopathic medicine and are certainly not found at the majority of DO programs.

In addition, "community hospital" does not equate to low patient volume or low patient diversity. I might even venture that the "diversity" you see at large academic hospitals isn't necessary; how many patients with rare diseases do you really need to see? I trained at a large academic hospital and can tell you that doing tons of Whipples or PSARPs at the exclusion of open cholecystectomies and appendectomies is not necessarily helpful.

Most importantly, given the fact that the ACGME, AOA and AACOM are moving toward a unified accreditation GME system tells me that people more knowledgeable about this than us feel that the undergrad educational system is equivalent.

Honestly, this anti-DO attitude pervades only the pre-med community. Get back to us in 10 years and tell us whether or not you even know which one of your colleagues is a DO or MD.

Yes!

 

[NeuroLAX]

So after the merger does anybody know what test DOs will have to take? COMPLEX or USMLE?

For now, COMLEX isn't going anywhere. If anything I suspect that the number of DO students that register for the USMLE will increase leading up to the 2015 merger and thereafter. I will be taking both exams.

 

[sliceofbread136]

You can't spell "not a real doctor" without DO

 

[SpecterGT260]

You can't spell "not a real doctor" without DO

Yes. But you also can't spell doctor without it. Unless you want to spell it "MD" 😉. But then again theres no DO in "Isn't an MD" so..... I feel like the whole line of reasoning is suspect.

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[pre med 2014]

For now, COMLEX isn't going anywhere. If anything I suspect that the number of DO students that register for the USMLE will increase leading up to the 2015 merger and thereafter. I will be taking both exams.

I don't understand the point of a merger if you still have to take separate exams

 

[SpecterGT260]

I don't understand the point of a merger if you still have to take separate exams

Acquisition*

The AOA is becoming an ACGME member (just like the AMA and AHA currently are). They are not merging into one group in any sense.

The point of the acquisition was to preserve access to PGE programs for DOs. There are literally dozens of threads about this.

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[NeuroLAX]

I don't understand the point of a merger if you still have to take separate exams

It brings unification to graduate medical education under the ACGME. The AOA and AACOM will then become organizational members of the ACGME, as per the AOA website. In a perfect world the USMLE will be required of all medical students.

 

[Winged Scapula]

It brings unification to graduate medical education under the ACGME. The AOA and AACOM will then become organizational members of the ACGME, as per the AOA website. In a perfect world the USMLE will be required of all medical students.

And that's probably what will happen at some point.

If then we could get a single licensing process rather than one for each state, then we'd be set!

 

[NeuroLAX]

And that's probably what will happen at some point.

If then we could get a single licensing process rather than one for each state, then we'd be set!

👍

 

[Bacchus]

Yeah, it's not like there are still DO schools that use private practice preceptorships for core rotations, and it's not like a majority of DO residencies are still at community hospitals with low patient volumes and little patient diversity.

As a DO student, the only core I had with a "private" practice doc was peds. It was exclusively outpatient but prepared me extremely well for future rotations and the end-of-rotation exam. I use "private" because it was a doc who worked in our school's clinics. I did not get nursery, picu or nicu time, however.

As far as community programs go, like WS said it does not reflect one way or another just by the word community. I did my surgical core at a community hospital that was the largest hospital system in Delaware, that gave me OR time usually from 6-8 hours a day and which trained excellent and competent residents. That hospital is still the largest I've been in when compared to other University hospitals.

Then again, I go to an established DO school so the majority of my rotations, especially the cores have been with residents at pretty large programs.

 

[Winged Scapula]

As far as community programs go, like WS said it does not reflect one way or another just by the word community. I did my surgical core at a community hospital that was the largest hospital system in Delaware, that gave me OR time usually from 6-8 hours a day and which trained excellent and competent residents. That hospital is still the largest I've been in when compared to other University hospitals.

Exactly.

I live in a very PP community town. While there are small 80 bed hospitals, we have large community hospitals here with multiple specialties and residency programs that would rival some academic centers.

I presume you trained at Christiana which is a fabulous hospital with an excellent surgical reputation and very forward thinking (they were the first hospital I ever saw with bedside computers and smart phones given to residents that would update as you came in, and that was a long time ago), and yes, a community hospital.

 

[willen101383]

Agree with Bacchus. My rotations this year have all been at large teaching hospitals, 700+ bed institutions with the exception of two smaller sites. It has been my experience that the smaller institutions were FAR better rotation sites. On my EM elective (smaller site), I worked 1 on 1 with an attending the entire rotation. I was given autonomy in some things like suturing, with the attg checking after I had finished. Did LPs, I&Ds, put in a few EJs, learned to use the US to do FAST scans and put in IVs on tough sticks. Really learned a lot about how to ED workup a patient. In some of my larger institutions (UPitt Med and Einstein here in Philly) I wasnt given any autonomy and was a legit scut monkey. Faxing bull$hit medical record requests and the like day in and day out. The amount I learned on my EM and psych rotations at smaller community non teaching sites absolutely blew the larger academic sites out of the water in comparison. In reality, I didnt even see any better pathology at the bigger academic sites...with the exception of a few larger surgical procedures that likely wouldnt be carried out at a smaller site. Save for few, PCOM does have some great sites I must admit. All my rotation sites have been on par with what Jeff or Albany Med, or Pitt students would be getting.

 

[Druggernaut]

You are not at any disadvantage and the only thing holding you back is your own effort.

This isn't entirely true. There's a number of people on SDN who were on the interview trail and ran into programs that wouldn't interview them as DOs and seemed to have roughly equal success as MD applicants that had lower class ranks and USMLE scores 20-30 points lower. These were in traditionally "DO friendly" fields. It sounds like there's plenty of top flight programs in those specialties that were still willing to interview them, so it's not catastrophic (and as Winged Scapula said, getting into one of these elite programs is unlikely to be all that important for you anyway), but it is more difficult. More competitive, less friendly programs would have more doors closed to you, but for the time being, you can still apply to AOA programs that MDs cannot, and those programs will still likely favor DOs even after becoming accredited by the ACGME.

Some of my fourth year classmates were questioned about the quality of their clinical rotations, so some residency directors are concerned about it, but as they rotated at solid sites with both inpatient and outpatient experience, it seemed as though they were able to defend their education enough to satisfy their interviewers.

Regardless of what happens with ACGME accreditation and a combined match, plan on taking the COMLEX. It sucks, since it'll end up costing you about an extra $1000 to take an extra Step 1 & 2 exam and it's a waste of a few days, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of your medical education, and it's only a few extra days of studying to prepare for the OMM portion of these tests.

 

[Hemorrage]

Anyone who is against being a DO should realize that no one is forcing to you to apply to a DO school or matriculant into one. There is obviously solid evidence stating that being a DO is less advantageous than an MD, however, the extent of this disadvantage decreases every day. In the end, if you really want an MD, stick it out and get one. It may take you 3-4 cycles but if you are determined i think everyone can matriculant into the school of their degree choice. The DO degree is equivalent to the MD degree, its pathetic how a change of two letters can cause so many disagreements especially when medical education is so standardized across both types of schools.

 

[Bacchus]

Exactly.

I live in a very PP community town. While there are small 80 bed hospitals, we have large community hospitals here with multiple specialties and residency programs that would rival some academic centers.

I presume you trained at Christiana which is a fabulous hospital with an excellent surgical reputation and very forward thinking (they were the first hospital I ever saw with bedside computers and smart phones given to residents that would update as you came in, and that was a long time ago), and yes, a community hospital.

Yes. I was at the main campus. The hospital was gorgeous, the attendings were some of the nicest I have worked with outside family medicine and the residents were genuinely happy from what I could tell. They all wanted to teach. It was an excellent rotation for someone who does not want to do surgery.

 

[Midifelder10]

This isn't entirely true. There's a number of people on SDN who were on the interview trail and ran into programs that wouldn't interview them as DOs and seemed to have roughly equal success as MD applicants that had lower class ranks and USMLE scores 20-30 points lower. These were in traditionally "DO friendly" fields. It sounds like there's plenty of top flight programs in those specialties that were still willing to interview them, so it's not catastrophic (and as Winged Scapula said, getting into one of these elite programs is unlikely to be all that important for you anyway), but it is more difficult. More competitive, less friendly programs would have more doors closed to you, but for the time being, you can still apply to AOA programs that MDs cannot, and those programs will still likely favor DOs even after becoming accredited by the ACGME.


Some of my fourth year classmates were questioned about the quality of their clinical rotations, so some residency directors are concerned about it, but as they rotated at solid sites with both inpatient and outpatient experience, it seemed as though they were able to defend their education enough to satisfy their interviewers.

Regardless of what happens with ACGME accreditation and a combined match, plan on taking the COMLEX. It sucks, since it'll end up costing you about an extra $1000 to take an extra Step 1 & 2 exam and it's a waste of a few days, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of your medical education, and it's only a few extra days of studying to prepare for the OMM portion of these tests.

You are correct. I meant to imply that blatant problems are not there but yes the subtle one's do exist. I cannot question anything you say as you are in the trenches but I was implying that you can get into most of the residencies. My question to you is are you satisfied so far or you would have taken a different route? In short any regrets?

Anyone who is against being a DO should realize that no one is forcing to you to apply to a DO school or matriculant into one. There is obviously solid evidence stating that being a DO is less advantageous than an MD, however, the extent of this disadvantage decreases every day. In the end, if you really want an MD, stick it out and get one. It may take you 3-4 cycles but if you are determined i think everyone can matriculant into the school of their degree choice. The DO degree is equivalent to the MD degree, its pathetic how a change of two letters can cause so many disagreements especially when medical education is so standardized across both types of schools.

This is what I was trying to say that discrimination is reducing .

 

[Winged Scapula]

Yes. I was at the main campus. The hospital was gorgeous, the attendings were some of the nicest I have worked with outside family medicine and the residents were genuinely happy from what I could tell. They all wanted to teach. It was an excellent rotation for someone who does not want to do surgery.

The hospital is gorgeous and I ranked them highly for surgical residency.

However, it was one of the few places where I was pimped during my interview; I got asked my some ancient surgeon what surgical journals I read and what was the content of Lactated Ringers.

 

[sliceofbread136]

All I know is if a DO was going to treat me I would refuse it and demand an MD.

 

[SpecterGT260]

All I know is if a DO was going to treat me I would refuse it and demand an MD.

Unless you're in for bone stuff. I hear they do that

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[airplanes]

All I know is if a DO was going to treat me I would refuse it and demand an MD.

lol...

what if that DO did an ACGME residency? Do you even know what that is or means? Probably not.

 

[sliceofbread136]

lol...

what if that DO did an ACGME residency? Do you even know what that is or means? Probably not.

Then I would let him massage my back. Maybe.

 

[Marika11]

All I know is if a DO was going to treat me I would refuse it and demand an MD.

Your ignorant comments are getting annoying. I'm not sure if you are trying to be funny, or are just seriously misinformed, but either way you should stop. You don't add much to the conversation. All you seem to do is try to add fuel to the fire.

 

[airplanes]

Then I would let him massage my back. Maybe.

And they would kick you out of their practice. Definitely. 👍

I'm not even a DO student and I'm offended. Kids these days..

 

[SpecterGT260]

I thought slice was pre do.... no?

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[487806]

Your ignorant comments are getting annoying. I'm not sure if you are trying to be funny, or are just seriously misinformed, but either way you should stop. You don't add much to the conversation. All you seem to do is try to add fuel to the fire.

And they would kick you out of their practice. Definitely. 👍

I'm not even a DO student and I'm offended. Kids these days..

Let's try to not to be too serious here....

 

[SpecterGT260]

And they would kick you out of their practice. Definitely. 👍

I'm not even a DO student and I'm offended. Kids these days..

No. Massages are not explicitly banned.

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[sliceofbread136]

I thought slice was pre do.... no?

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No im not. See my sig. I just love trolling DO vs MD threads. I'm gonna stop now and hope I dont get banned lol