DO curriculum more work heavy than MD?

[deleted616051]

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Seeing that we have a bunch of techniques for lab every week and have more OMM information to learn for tests and lab practicals, is the DO curriculum more work heavy and therefore more intense than an MD program where you could use that time to do research, study for boards, or just catch up on classwork?

Does this inherently put DO students at a disadvantage since grades, boards, or lack of research will be lower on average than an MD counterparts?


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[kenjixshadow]

Yes, DO students are at disadvantage since day 1, but most of us will eventually be a doctor.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

OS essentially amounts to an extra 1 to 2 months of class for the average DO student. Which means more in class time and shorter summers.

 

[deleted616051]

Do you think schools will ever take that into consideration? That we have to do more work in the same amount of time. If MD students are stressed/burnt out then how come they think DO students should have to do more in the same amount of time and yet do well in all aspects of their life?

Doesn't make sense to me.


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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Do you think schools will ever take that into consideration? That we have to do more work in the same amount of time. If MD students are stressed/burnt out then how come they think DO students should have to do more in the same amount of time and yet do well in all aspects of their life?

Doesn't make sense to me.


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In what respect? You attend an Osteopathic medical school. You're going to learn Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine.

 

[Neopolymath]

I'm quite happy that I will have an opportunity to become a physician and I don't really care about prestige or letters behind my name. Like a lot of DO students, I took a more scenic route to my decision to pursue medicine. I think that will be a major factor in my success, particularly in rotations. That said, as someone who was just aimless/unmotivated (and lazy at a few points), but very smart in undergrad, this type of stuff is a constant slap in the face. All of these stupid extra things could have been avoided had I been even somewhat focused.

I will attempt to use this feeling as a reminder to do well in school so I do not have to go to a bad residency program in a field I don't like.

Edit: I also think the crux of the issue is that a rapidly growing number of DO students are more vocal about the fact that DO school is 100% a backup. I have no interest in any portion of DO school besides the part that gives me the opportunity to pursue a specialty I enjoy and become a good clinician. Besides in the application process and in OPP courses, we don't have to lie anymore.

 

[deleted616051]

It doesn't have anything to do with not liking OMM or that it was a backup which it was not but the fact that there should be more time in place to learn more information.


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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

It doesn't have anything to do with not liking OMM or that it was a backup which it was not but the fact that there should be more time in place to learn more information.


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You misunderstood. I'm saying that there's really no where for extra time to be drawn unless you legitimately do away with summer vacation. No one is extending preclinicals to 3 years.

 

[Promethean]

I don't think we are at all at a disadvantage. It isn't as if OMM is completely unrelated to the rest of medicine. If done right, it helps cement the other concepts.

At our school, we go through each of the body systems, talking about osteopathic implications, and that serves as an additional review of those systems. We get into detail with the anatomy of each part of the body in turn, and again, that serves as an additional review of that board relevant information.

DOs need to stop with this idea that we are playing second fiddle. We get all the didactics that the MDs get, plus a little more. And that little more doesn't detract from anything... it is just extra practice.

Yes, it takes up some time. But all the med students I know at my DO school still manage to have a little free time. We still find opportunities to run in marathons, or watch Netflix, or have talent shows and awesome costume parties. I'm not saying that any of those things need to be trimmed out to make time to study... I am saying that even with all the extra material that we do have to study, we still have time to do those things, and we still manage to rock our boards.

I'm not saying we are better than MDs. I'm saying that we need to be proud of the little bit extra we get and stop treating it like it is such an incredible burden to be asked to learn something that we may or may not want to use later in practice. The act of learning it helps us engage more fully with all the rest of the curriculum, and that makes everything stick in memory better.

 

[Promethean]

Do you think schools will ever take that into consideration? That we have to do more work in the same amount of time. If MD students are stressed/burnt out then how come they think DO students should have to do more in the same amount of time and yet do well in all aspects of their life?

Doesn't make sense to me.


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So, we aren't going to thrive in all aspects of our lives. We are medical students. We are going to sacrifice in order to be able to do this thing. We aren't going to get to spend as much time with family as we used to, and we are going to cut corners on our self-care, or financial wellbeing, or something. Something does have to give somewhere.

But trimming out OMM wouldn't make our lives sunny and give us abundant time. If we had the hours of instruction and practice taken away, we'd also lose the learning that happens during that time... which isn't insignificant. Even if you don't think that OMM works at all, that time spent thinking about anatomy and how structures interrelate is valuable.

I think you are right that our schools don't always appreciate the burdens that we are under, and that is really frustrating sometimes. But I think that there are better answers to that than to just wish we didn't have to do OMM.

I was just at the FMEC conference last weekend, and let me tell you it was an incredible blast of a time. It is not an osteopathic specific conference, but there were a lot of osteopathic sessions available, and I noticed that there were quite a few MDs attending those. Quite a few MDs recognize that our techniques do stuff, and express interest in learning how to use them, too. We have something worth sharing. Try not to lose sight of that.

 

[Neopolymath]

It doesn't have anything to do with not liking OMM or that it was a backup which it was not but the fact that there should be more time in place to learn more information.


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There are only so many hours in the day and the extra stuff that DO students do is exactly what is making it impossible for you to get what you want. It can't be anything else.

 

[deleted616051]

You misunderstood. I'm saying that there's really no where for extra time to be drawn unless you legitimately do away with summer vacation. No one is extending preclinicals to 3 years.

To be honest I would do a 3 year preclinical route. Yeah it's one more year but those years would be much more enjoyable. I guess you couldn't just have a 2.5 year preclinical route since it would throw off the time for residencies.

 

[deleted616051]

So, we aren't going to thrive in all aspects of our lives. We are medical students. We are going to sacrifice in order to be able to do this thing. We aren't going to get to spend as much time with family as we used to, and we are going to cut corners on our self-care, or financial wellbeing, or something. Something does have to give somewhere.

But trimming out OMM wouldn't make our lives sunny and give us abundant time. If we had the hours of instruction and practice taken away, we'd also lose the learning that happens during that time... which isn't insignificant. Even if you don't think that OMM works at all, that time spent thinking about anatomy and how structures interrelate is valuable.

I think you are right that our schools don't always appreciate the burdens that we are under, and that is really frustrating sometimes. But I think that there are better answers to that than to just wish we didn't have to do OMM.

I was just at the FMEC conference last weekend, and let me tell you it was an incredible blast of a time. It is not an osteopathic specific conference, but there were a lot of osteopathic sessions available, and I noticed that there were quite a few MDs attending those. Quite a few MDs recognize that our techniques do stuff, and express interest in learning how to use them, too. We have something worth sharing. Try not to lose sight of that.

I agree with you in that OMM can be useful and I'm not dogging it's innate helpfulness. It just seems like I could use a little more breathing room. I guess there's no chance to extend the total time of the program. Maybe schools could be more efficient with lectures? I know many seem to think lectures aren't the best to prepare you or have too much detail. I guess I'm just venting about being suffocated all the time. And having a little fun is doable but my personal health tells me that I'm not doing enough for myself.

 

[Promethean]

To be honest I would do a 3 year preclinical route. Yeah it's one more year but those years would be much more enjoyable. I guess you couldn't just have a 2.5 year preclinical route since it would throw off the time for residencies.

I have some classmates who are doing a 3 year preclinical route. Of course, one of those years is a repetition. =)

I'm in a 3 year pathway myself. We do 20 months of didactic, straight through, no summer, no vacations, followed by 16 core rotations, no electives. Throughout, we have even more extra work to do in order to help fill in the missing time, so that we do get a full 4 year medical education in the 3. And I still have time to goof off and visit SDN.

Time is always precious. I think no one who isn't a medical student really knows what that means. But you can almost always manage the time you have a little better. And learning to do that well is, in itself, a valuable skill which will pay dividends for life.

It is all a matter of perspective.

I love both tabbycatdontcur's avatar, and neopolymath's. =)

 

[deleted616051]

I have some classmates who are doing a 3 year preclinical route. Of course, one of those years is a repetition. =)

I'm in a 3 year pathway myself. We do 20 months of didactic, straight through, no summer, no vacations, followed by 16 core rotations, no electives. Throughout, we have even more extra work to do in order to help fill in the missing time, so that we do get a full 4 year medical education in the 3. And I still have time to goof off and visit SDN.

Time is always precious. I think no one who isn't a medical student really knows what that means. But you can almost always manage the time you have a little better. And learning to do that well is, in itself, a valuable skill which will pay dividends for life.

It is all a matter of perspective.

I love both tabbycatdontcur's avatar, and neopolymath's. =)

Yes and I agree with you that I need to be more efficient and less distracted as well. I have some disadvantages in that department but that can't be an excuse.

And a 3 year pathway that isn't just for remediation! 😛

 

[Promethean]

I agree with you in that OPP can be useful and I'm not dogging it's innate helpfulness. It just seems like I could use a little more breathing room. I guess there's no chance to extend the total time of the program. Maybe schools could be more efficient with lectures? I know many seem to think lectures aren't the best to prepare you or have too much detail. I guess I'm just venting about being suffocated all the time. And having a little fun is doable but my personal health tells me that I'm not doing enough for myself.

I hear you. I put on 40 pounds in my first year. I've taken off 10, but going from being very physically active 6 days a week to sitting on my but in a lecture hall 40 hours a week and then going to study another 40 after... yeah, that first semester took a toll. Even once we started on a more independent study curriculum and I had more time not in lecture, it still needed to be spent largely with a book in my lap or at my desk.

And your mental health matters, too. Having time to spend doing things that make you feel like a real person and not just a med student drone... that matters. The suffocating feeling? I know it. It got a lot better for me later in first year and now in second. As an MS-II, I actually feel like I have a lot more time than I did... though, I know that isn't really true. If anything, there is more workload, but I am much better and managing it.

Venting is good to do, if it helps you feel better. Hang in there. Others got through this before us, and we will, too.

 

[Goro]

No, at least for my students.

DO students are disadvantaged by the poor quality of some school's clinical education, which feed into prejudices that some residency directors have towards DOs. This isn't universal, but the higher up the specialty competitiveness tree you climb, the greater it will be.

The AOA does shoot all DOs in the foot because of their mania to open new DO schools without insuring that rotations will be of quality. Hence, some poorly trained DO grads
will fail to live down the stereotypes of DO's. So, if you screw up in residency as a DO, the thinking will be "well, that's a DO for you". But if you screw up as an MD, it's "boy, that guy is an idiot."

Seeing that we have a bunch of techniques for lab every week and have more OMM information to learn for tests and lab practicals, is the DO curriculum more work heavy and therefore more intense than an MD program where you could use that time to do research, study for boards, or just catch up on classwork?

Does this inherently put DO students at a disadvantage since grades, boards, or lack of research will be lower on average than an MD counterparts?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I don't think we are at all at a disadvantage. It isn't as if OMM is completely unrelated to the rest of medicine. If done right, it helps cement the other concepts.

At our school, we go through each of the body systems, talking about osteopathic implications, and that serves as an additional review of those systems. We get into detail with the anatomy of each part of the body in turn, and again, that serves as an additional review of that board relevant information.

DOs need to stop with this idea that we are playing second fiddle. We get all the didactics that the MDs get, plus a little more. And that little more doesn't detract from anything... it is just extra practice.

Yes, it takes up some time. But all the med students I know at my DO school still manage to have a little free time. We still find opportunities to run in marathons, or watch Netflix, or have talent shows and awesome costume parties. I'm not saying that any of those things need to be trimmed out to make time to study... I am saying that even with all the extra material that we do have to study, we still have time to do those things, and we still manage to rock our boards.

I'm not saying we are better than MDs. I'm saying that we need to be proud of the little bit extra we get and stop treating it like it is such an incredible burden to be asked to learn something that we may or may not want to use later in practice. The act of learning it helps us engage more fully with all the rest of the curriculum, and that makes everything stick in memory better.

I'll put it this way. OMT is 2-4 hours a week of time I could use to use to either recharge, do boards questions, or get a deeper appreciation for my class material. We should not pretend that it does not contribute to some mild performance loss on USMLE.

 

[deleted616051]

No, at least for my students.

DO students are disadvantaged by the poor quality of some school's clinical education, which feed into prejudices that some residency directors have towards DOs. This isn't universal, but the higher up the specialty competitiveness tree you climb, the greater it will be.

The AOA does shoot all DOs in the foot because of their mania to open new DO schools without insuring that rotations will be of quality. Hence, some poorly trained DO grads
will fail to live down the stereotypes of DO's. So, if you screw up in residency as a DO, the thinking will be "well, that's a DO for you". But if you screw up as an MD, it's "boy, that guy is an idiot."

I wish you could go around the country and tell this to schools because it's really hard to find a school willing to admit this to students and to just give some reason why it is the way it is. What school wants it's reputation ruined and the funding cut? If you say something like this to challenge the school then you will be meeting with the dean and professors about unprofessionalism. So it's just do whatever you're told and like it until you get out. What happens when you get out if there are many poor doctors who weren't well trained? This will affect those doctors for the rest of their lives.

Goro, will you adopt me into your school? You know just slide a chair in the back corner.

 

[kenjixshadow]

I'll put it this way. OMT is 2-4 hours a week of time I could use to use to either recharge, do boards questions, or get a deeper appreciation for my class material. We should not pretend that it does not contribute to some mild performance loss on USMLE.

This and also ppl need to keep in mind that many professors at DO school do not adequately prepare their students for the USMLE. There are multi factors that continue showing why DO students do poorly than their MD counterpart on the USMLE. Moreover, I heard the opposite of what promethean said, nobody has ever told me that OMM helped them with the boards with the exception of OMM portion obviously.

 

[Dustbowl12]

I don't think we are at all at a disadvantage. It isn't as if OMM is completely unrelated to the rest of medicine. If done right, it helps cement the other concepts.

At our school, we go through each of the body systems, talking about osteopathic implications, and that serves as an additional review of those systems. We get into detail with the anatomy of each part of the body in turn, and again, that serves as an additional review of that board relevant information.

DOs need to stop with this idea that we are playing second fiddle. We get all the didactics that the MDs get, plus a little more. And that little more doesn't detract from anything... it is just extra practice.

Yes, it takes up some time. But all the med students I know at my DO school still manage to have a little free time. We still find opportunities to run in marathons, or watch Netflix, or have talent shows and awesome costume parties. I'm not saying that any of those things need to be trimmed out to make time to study... I am saying that even with all the extra material that we do have to study, we still have time to do those things, and we still manage to rock our boards.

I'm not saying we are better than MDs. I'm saying that we need to be proud of the little bit extra we get and stop treating it like it is such an incredible burden to be asked to learn something that we may or may not want to use later in practice. The act of learning it helps us engage more fully with all the rest of the curriculum, and that makes everything stick in memory better.

Good luck. DO bias comes mostly from self hating DOs

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Good luck. DO bias comes mostly from self hating DOs

And an establishment that expects osteopathic graduates to preform to higher standards than MDs. I mean not like DOs need 10-15 points higher on usmle than the average MD just for an interview at some places.

 

[Dr. Death]

I have some classmates who are doing a 3 year preclinical route. Of course, one of those years is a repetition. =)

I'm in a 3 year pathway myself. We do 20 months of didactic, straight through, no summer, no vacations, followed by 16 core rotations, no electives. Throughout, we have even more extra work to do in order to help fill in the missing time, so that we do get a full 4 year medical education in the 3. And I still have time to goof off and visit SDN.

Time is always precious. I think no one who isn't a medical student really knows what that means. But you can almost always manage the time you have a little better. And learning to do that well is, in itself, a valuable skill which will pay dividends for life.

It is all a matter of perspective.

I love both tabbycatdontcur's avatar, and neopolymath's. =)

What if you want to do auditions or Sub-Is?