DO degree and residency

[aspiring20]

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i am applying in the coming cycle, and i am reasonably certain that i should be able to get into a good DO school (3.6/3,3 c/s GPA and 35 MCAT).

i'll be applying to both MD and DO, and my ultimate goal is to become a physician. i am NOT here to engage in the often volatile MD vs DO debate, and i am well aware of the fact that a DO degree will be somewhat limiting when it comes to super competitive residencies.

having said all that, do DO graduates face significant barriers getting into "mid-level" residencies such as psychiatry, emergency medicine, and other residencies that result in salaries in the low 200k range?

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

No, I wouldn't say that DOs face significant barriers in those specialties. You can definitely make in the low 200k range as a DO, if that is what you are looking for.

 

[aspiring20]

No, I wouldn't say that DOs face significant barriers in those specialties. You can definitely make in the low 200k range as a DO, if that is what you are looking for.

simple, straightforward, and informative answer. thank you.

and i especially appreciate that you did not judge me when i mentioned 200k +.

 

[darklabel]

having said all that, do DO graduates face significant barriers getting into "mid-level" residencies such as psychiatry, emergency medicine, and other residencies that result in salaries in the low 200k range?

DOs can shoot for residencies such as General Surgery, Gas, rads as well.

But yes, psych is easy to get in ACGME, EM is becoming more competitive lately and others in the 200k range are obtainable. I believe hospitalists make around the ~230k range and obtaining an IM residency is very easy. Good IM programs are a different story.

Got all this from other residents/med students on the forums, but this is the general consensus I see around here.

 

[Mehd School]

You (and I) shouldn't face any trouble snatching up a spot in the residencies you mentioned. Of the ROAD specialties, only opthalm and derm are tough for DOs. In the same breath, by the numbers they're tough for MD's too.

I can't vouch for how we will be advised in school because I haven't started yet, but nearly every DO school I applied to this year made some mention of primary care in a mission statement or in general. Keep this in mind, as you would moonwalk into a lot of state schools. Personally, I'm very interested in primary care (specifically FM/EM) so I feel like I'm in a good place.

 

[aspiring20]

You (and I) shouldn't face any trouble snatching up a spot in the residencies you mentioned. Of the ROAD specialties, only opthalm and derm are tough for DOs. In the same breath, by the numbers they're tough for MD's too.

I can't vouch for how we will be advised in school because I haven't started yet, but nearly every DO school I applied to this year made some mention of primary care in a mission statement or in general. Keep this in mind, as you would moonwalk into a lot of state schools. Personally, I'm very interested in primary care (specifically FM/EM) so I feel like I'm in a good place.

thanks!

since you are applying to DO schools, can you tell me the timeline of DO applications? i heard it starts later than MD cycles.

 

[TreadLightly]

thanks!

since you are applying to DO schools, can you tell me the timeline of DO applications? i heard it starts later than MD cycles.

Nope the AACOMAS (DO) application can be submitted on June 1. I believe AMCAS is the same but they sometimes have delays and the website doesn't want to tell me when it will open next year.

The application cycle is pretty much exactly the same and anything you hear about it being "longer" is basically speculation.

Note: You can begin your application a month before the first day of submission.

 

[cabinbuilder]

i am applying in the coming cycle, and i am reasonably certain that i should be able to get into a good DO school (3.6/3,3 c/s GPA and 35 MCAT).

i'll be applying to both MD and DO, and my ultimate goal is to become a physician. i am NOT here to engage in the often volatile MD vs DO debate, and i am well aware of the fact that a DO degree will be somewhat limiting when it comes to super competitive residencies.

having said all that, do DO graduates face significant barriers getting into "mid-level" residencies such as psychiatry, emergency medicine, and other residencies that result in salaries in the low 200k range?

NO.
Your residency does not determine your end salary, the contract with your employer does. I will tell you that your salary once you get out of residency has NOTHING to do with the residency you went to. It has to do with your negotiation skills, being board certified, and having no malpractice or probationary issues.

 

[jayoh]

i am applying in the coming cycle, and i am reasonably certain that i should be able to get into a good DO school (3.6/3,3 c/s GPA and 35 MCAT).

i'll be applying to both MD and DO, and my ultimate goal is to become a physician. i am NOT here to engage in the often volatile MD vs DO debate, and i am well aware of the fact that a DO degree will be somewhat limiting when it comes to super competitive residencies.

having said all that, do DO graduates face significant barriers getting into "mid-level" residencies such as psychiatry, emergency medicine, and other residencies that result in salaries in the low 200k range?

As someone did in another post, I'll quote cliquesh's response from another thread, because it is solid info

It's realistic, as a DO, to match at:

A top tier pyschiatry, family medicine, anesthesia, PM&R or pathology program.

A mid-tier internal medicine, neurology, pediatric, Ob/gyn or emergency medicine program

A mid to low tier general surgery or radiology program.

It's also realistic to match AOA orthopedics and general surgery, as well as emergency medicine, family medicine, pediatrics, internal medicine, psych and Ob/gyn.

It's unrealistic to match Acgme orthopedics, neurosurgery, urology, ENT, derm, radiation oncology and plastic surgery. Opthamology may or may not be unrealistic (not enough data to determine).

It's unrealistic to match aoa surgical subspecialities, except for aoa general surgery and orthopedics, because there are so few spots ( 14 neurosurgery, 24 ENT, 17 urology, and 15 opthamology). This is in contrast to the 135 general surgery spots and 100 orthopedic spots offered last year.

Similar there are few AOA anesthesia, radiology, and derm spots (about 30 for each speciality). However, acgme anesthesia is very DO friendly and acgme radiology is pretty DO friendly. AOA derm is weird because you don't apply as a 4th year, you apply as an intern, so I don't know how realistic aoa derm is.

 

[jayoh]

Nope the AACOMAS (DO) application can be submitted on June 1. I believe AMCAS is the same but they sometimes have delays and the website doesn't want to tell me when it will open next year.

The application cycle is pretty much exactly the same and anything you hear about it being "longer" is basically speculation.

Note: You can begin your application a month before the first day of submission.

I agree with this. This past cycle my DO apps were in and complete long before my MD apps due to the amcas issues. People say it's "longer" because you can (supposedly) apply later in the cycle and still have a decent chance, where (supposedly) your chances are ruined if you apply that late to MD. Each school is different, so it definitely doesn't apply to every case, but it's probably generally true.

 

[EMDO2018]

As someone did in another post, I'll quote cliquesh's response from another thread, because it is solid info

Shouldn't neurology and anesthesiology be switched??

 

[jayoh]

In the quote and on this website a lot of people have been mentioning different tiers of residencies. What exactly categorizes different "tiers" of residencies? What are the factors that makes one residency better than the other?

I'm really not qualified to answer that, so instead of giving you a potentially bad answer, I'll let one of the MS4/residents/attendings answer that.

Shouldn't neurology and anesthesiology be switched??

Maybe, or maybe neuro should just be listed top-tier. Either way I think it's still a great guideline for what to reasonably expect as a DO.

 

[cliquesh]

Shouldn't neurology and anesthesiology be switched??

Anesthesia is where it belongs. Johns Hopkins, Upenn, etc. take DOs for anesthesia.

Neurology may or may not belong in the top category. I have not, however, seen many "impressive" matches for neurology. Most DOs who match neurology match at mid- tier state university programs.

 

[cliquesh]

In the quote and on this website a lot of people have been mentioning different tiers of residencies. What exactly categorizes different "tiers" of residencies? What are the factors that makes one residency better than the other?

It's basically "academic prowess" (how much research funding, how many famous clinicians are part of the department, etc,) the complexity of cases, and the fellowship opportunities/placement. It really just boils down, at least for me, to fellowship opportunities. In general, the ivy league programs are top tier, the state university programs are mid-tier, and community hospitals are low-tier. There are exceptions, however.

I think it's total BS, though. The training isn't any better at, let's say, Upenn versuses Indiana university. Upenn will, nevertheless, provide you with more fellowship opportunities. There is, however, a big difference in training and post graduate opportunities when you compare a small community hospital to any university program.

It's all about making the next point in your career easier.

In the end it doesn't really matter that much where you do your residency/fellowship. Your salary wont change. The only exception is if you want to go into academics.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

NO.
Your residency does not determine your end salary, the contract with your employer does. I will tell you that your salary once you get out of residency has NOTHING to do with the residency you went to. It has to do with your negotiation skills, being board certified, and having no malpractice or probationary issues.

I think OP was referring to facing barriers getting into residencies, not whether or not certain tier residencies lead to more lucrative attending positions.

 

[Haxx]

How hard is it to get a decent anesthesiology residency as a DO?

Paging @cliquesh

 

[Elevencents]

How hard is it to get a decent anesthesiology residency as a DO?

See cliquesh's quoted post above.

 

[cliquesh]

[quote="VinceViegel, post: 14751106, member: 419555" hard is it to get a decent anesthesiology residency as a DO?[/quote]

Not that hard. A 230 usmle (65thish percentile) is good enough to get you in somewhere. There are not many bad acgme anesthesia programs.

 

[cabinbuilder]

In the quote and on this website a lot of people have been mentioning different tiers of residencies. What exactly categorizes different "tiers" of residencies? What are the factors that makes one residency better than the other?

There isn't really, it's all in the minds of SDN. Residency comes down to personal preference and individual fit.

 

[cabinbuilder]

I think OP was referring to facing barriers getting into residencies, not whether or not certain tier residencies lead to more lucrative attending positions.

That's not how I interpret the last line of the first post.

 

[aspiring20]

thanks for all responses. i realize that some of you claim that anesthesiology residency is doable for a DO.

how difficult is it for a DO to perform well on the USMLE? DOs must also take the COMPLEX as well, will that make it even more difficult?

 

[cabinbuilder]

thanks for all responses. i realize that some of you claim that anesthesiology residency is doable for a DO.

how difficult is it for a DO to perform well on the USMLE? DOs must also take the COMPLEX as well, will that make it even more difficult?

1. Lots of DO anesthesiologists
2. It's COMLEX
3. We all use the same study guides for both tests. COMLEX has OMM added in, you use the supplement study guide for that section.

 

[aspiring20]

1. Lots of DO anesthesiologists
2. It's COMLEX
3. We all use the same study guides for both tests. COMLEX has OMM added in, you use the supplement study guide for that section.

thanks for the info.

it does seem that DOs can indeed secure many residencies...

i just hope that my stats are good enough

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

That's not how I interpret the last line of the first post.

Either way, probably good that both scenarios are addressed.

 

[aspiring20]

another related question

i've heard of this planned merger between MD and DO? what's that all about? will it help or hurt DO?

and as the number of MD graduates soon exceed the number of MD residencies available, will that make it more difficult for DO graduates to match into MD residencies?

 

[jayoh]

The merger is old news, been here and gone. Isn't going to happen anytime soon. I personally would not go the DO route if your heart is set on an MD residency. There may come a point where that avenue is completely closed. Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

But don't 60% of DO's have to go ACGME because there are only enough AOA spots for 40%?

 

[koan]

Exactly. If your heart is set on ACGME residency (in low- to moderately-competitive fields) and DO schools are your only option, it would be foolish to decline an acceptance secondary to fear that you won't match. Greater than half your class will match ACGME, and this proportion keeps growing. I disagree that there is any sign of imminent shut-out of DOs to these programs. IMGs however are seeing these signs.

 

[user3]

The merger is old news, been here and gone. Isn't going to happen anytime soon. I personally would not go the DO route if your heart is set on an MD residency. There may come a point where that avenue is completely closed. Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

2,292 AOA positions in 2013
~5,000 DO grads in 2013
6,000+ DO grads in 2018

 

[Mad Jack]

How hard is it to get a decent anesthesiology residency as a DO?

Anesthesiology has gotten less competitive due to reimbursement fears, market tightening, and midlevel encroachment. Whether these fears will pan out in reality, no one knows. In any case, they have made anesthesia a good bet for DOs.

 

[hallowmann]

another related question

i've heard of this planned merger between MD and DO? what's that all about? will it help or hurt DO?

and as the number of MD graduates soon exceed the number of MD residencies available, will that make it more difficult for DO graduates to match into MD residencies?

As cabinbuilder said, the merger is dead for now. Act as if you never heard about it. As far as whether or not it benefits DOs, it depends on who you talk to. It would probably hurt DOs that want to go into competitive residencies of which AOA is their only option (increased competition from MD applicants will ultimately mean less DO spots), at the same time, it would probably help DOs in the middle.

Also, MD graduates are not soon exceeding the number of MD residencies available, total US grads are soon exceeding the number of MD residencies available. The study everyone quotes is comparing the number of ACGME residencies to the number of US MD and DO graduates. At ~2017/2018 they will be roughly equal, but that doesn't count the 2000+ AOA residencies.

MD grads are NOT close to filling all ACGME spots. Its unrealistic and unlikely for the ACGME to stop DOs from applying ACGME. They'd have to fill the current 2000+ spots that take DOs with FMGs, which is something programs usually prefer not to do.

That said, the class size increases are making it harder for IMGs/FMGs to match ACGME and its also making the match more competitive for the mid-scoring DOs.

But don't 60% of DO's have to go ACGME because there are only enough AOA spots for 40%?

Last I checked it was closer to 55-45, but your point is still valid.

Exactly. If your heart is set on ACGME residency (in low- to moderately-competitive fields) and DO schools are your only option, it would be foolish to decline an acceptance secondary to fear that you won't match. Greater than half your class will match ACGME, and this proportion keeps growing. I disagree that there is any sign of imminent shut-out of DOs to these programs. IMGs however are seeing these signs.

Agreed. Obviously if you want to go ACGME and can get into an MD program, that's the better option, but its still very doable as DO.

 

[aspiring20]

will things be noticeably worse for the class of 2019? i am applying for 2015 matriculation.

 

[aspiring20]

so another question.

i understand that DOs often face rather significant bias in the academic setting. however, i have no intention of ever doing research or work in an academic setting such as universities.

all i want is to find a job as a physician at a decent community/non-university affiliated hospital, regardless of location. DOs wont face much, if any, bias in this regard, correct?

 

[cabinbuilder]

all i want is to find a job as a physician at a decent community/non-university affiliated hospital, regardless of location. DOs wont face much, if any, bias in this regard, correct?

True, as long as you are board certified and have no formal reportable disciplinary actions or malpractice issues. Lots of jobs out there in primary care.

 

[aspiring20]

True, as long as you are board certified and have no formal reportable disciplinary actions or malpractice issues. Lots of jobs out there in primary care.

what about other specialties? i understand that many DOs practice in primary care, but will they face employment bias in specialties?

 

[koan]

so another question.

i understand that DOs often face rather significant bias in the academic setting. however, i have no intention of ever doing research or work in an academic setting such as universities.

all i want is to find a job as a physician at a decent community/non-university affiliated hospital, regardless of location. DOs wont face much, if any, bias in this regard, correct?

Are you referring to residency, or landing a faculty position afterwards? Because I know quite a few DOs in academic medicine, even at top 20 medical schools. The main barrier is research experience, and MDs often have more due to a variety of factors (more robust research departments at their home program, greater NIH funding, rotations at academic teaching hospitals vs community sites, etc). I don't think there is a significant, inherent bias at most institutions to hire a DO assistant clinical professor if their CV is equivalent.

 

[cabinbuilder]

what about other specialties? i understand that many DOs practice in primary care, but will they face employment bias in specialties?

Only a specialist can answer that question, my views are based on my employment experience in Family Practice. I would peruse the physician boards and see what they are discussing. I know right now Pathologists are having a hard time with finding jobs and their location options are limited to areas that have large labs, etc.

 

[aspiring20]

Are you referring to residency, or landing a faculty position afterwards? Because I know quite a few DOs in academic medicine, even at top 20 medical schools. The main barrier is research experience, and MDs often have more due to a variety of factors (more robust research departments at their home program, greater NIH funding, rotations at academic teaching hospitals vs community sites, etc). I don't think there is a significant, inherent bias at most institutions to hire a DO assistant clinical professor if their CV is equivalent.

i was referring to getting a job as an attending after residency. i have no desire/ability to be in an academic setting, but i am wondering if there is any substantial employment bias when it comes to community hospitals. i am referring to mid-level specialties, not just primary care.

 

[cabinbuilder]

i was referring to getting a job as an attending after residency. i have no desire/ability to be in an academic setting, but i am wondering if there is any substantial employment bias when it comes to community hospitals. i am referring to mid-level specialties, not just primary care.

OK, it would be more helpful if you would be specific as to what you specialty you are looking at? And what size hospital? Not all hospitals have all specialists depending on location and size of facility. Please be more specific otherwise we are all speculating as to what you are looking at doing.

 

[aspiring20]

OK, it would be more helpful if you would be specific as to what you specialty you are looking at? And what size hospital? Not all hospitals have all specialists depending on location and size of facility. Please be more specific otherwise we are all speculating as to what you are looking at doing.

sorry for the ambiguity. but the reason i am being vague is that i dont care what speciality i'll end up choosing. i just want to know if DOs with specialties other than primary care face employment bias in non-academic settings.

so let's pretend that i just finished a residency for emergency medicine and i want to find a job at any hospital in the country (no regard for location). will i encounter obstacles?

 

[babdoc]

Assuming there is a vacancy at any given hospital, the simple answer: depends on you, depends on your residency. It seems like the number one determinant is if you can fit into the group. There will be a spot for you somewhere. It may not be, say, a level 1 trauma center, or in a city. If you do an ACGME ED residency, you should be able to practice in most any hospital. If you do an AOA ED residency, your options might be more limited to smaller hospitals and lower levels in the trauma classification, simply because of the amount of things you are able to see in an AOA program (typically smaller hospitals, less variety). If one trains at a 20 bed ED in a 75 bed hospital located in a town of 25,000, it will be an up hill battle to work in a 100 bed ED in a 700 bed hospital

 

[cabinbuilder]

sorry for the ambiguity. but the reason i am being vague is that i dont care what speciality i'll end up choosing. i just want to know if DOs with specialties other than primary care face employment bias in non-academic settings.

so let's pretend that i just finished a residency for emergency medicine and i want to find a job at any hospital in the country (no regard for location). will i encounter obstacles?

Again, it comes down to what you are trained to do and what you are qualified to do. Like another poster said with ER, if you did not train in a trauma hospital and you are looking to be in the middle of Chicago with GSW and major trauma - you will have issues getting hired simply for the fact you never trained in trauma. Residency is yoru opportunity to think about your future and where you plan to practice. I knew I wanted to do rural medicine and made sure I did the rotations in residency that would let me achieve my goals even though I was at a small hospital without a rural track. I made the effort to do different rotations that were not the standard. It is not about the degree behind your name, it's about what you are qualified to do in real practice that is going to hold you back. That goes for any job out there whether it's medicine or not.