DO Disadvantages?

[LizzyM]

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I think that a very interesting point has come out of this discussion and it is this:

Most highly sought after residencies are not closed to DOs because they are DOs but because they aren't as strong as MD applicants in the same pool. If you are an exceptionallly strong student (good evaluations, exceptionally good board scores) there is no area of medicine that will be closed to you.

 

[Mavii]

Does anyone know how difficult is it to get radiology as a DO?

You have a 3.7/30, there's no reason for you to even think about becoming a DO because MD is still a very likely option. Tweak your app and apply as early as possible next cycle. Are you still waiting on any news or is your app done for already? Don't get discouraged. There have been people on this site who've applied 3+ times with apps worse than yours who eventually got int an MD school. I know a member named starlight or something like that. I think she spent 2 or so years improving her app and applying MD, finally getting in. She doesn't regret it one bit (last I saw her post) about waiting (she vowed not to resort to going DO). Some people want it that much more (I personally would reapply to MD schools at least twice before even thinking of applying DO). If it's that important to you, another year of free time and experience really isn't that much. If you really are comfortable going DO, then go for it. But if you're only considering it because of your lack of success this cycle, I'd hold off until you give it one more go with an improved app. Good luck

 

[sinombre]

Does anyone know how difficult is it to get radiology as a DO?

I can't find anything on the success rate of applicants, but out of the 1111 allopathic positions available in 2012 (including both PGY1 and PGY2 positions), 59 were filled by osteopathic graduates (roughly 5% of the applicants that matched).

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

(page 5)

Again, this says nothing about how difficult it is for osteopathic medical school graduates to match into allopathic radiology positions, only that they filled about 5% of the available positions for 2012.

There are also >100 osteopathic radiology residency positions (which will be open to MD and DO applicants after the merge, I'm not sure if it's happened already or will be happening for future applicants). This website shows 166 available positions:

http://www.aocr.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=3

I also don't know if there are more osteopathic radiology positions that aren't listed, or if the actual number of residency positions is less than the website indicates.

You have a 3.7/30, there's no reason for you to even think about becoming a DO because MD is still a very likely option. Tweak your app and apply as early as possible next cycle. Are you still waiting on any news or is your app done for already? Don't get discouraged. There have been people on this site who've applied 3+ times with apps worse than yours who eventually got int an MD school. I know a member named starlight or something like that. I think she spent 2 or so years improving her app and applying MD, finally getting in. She doesn't regret it one bit (last I saw her post) about waiting (she vowed not to resort to going DO). Some people want it that much more (I personally would reapply to MD schools at least twice before even thinking of applying DO). If it's that important to you, another year of free time and experience really isn't that much. If you really are comfortable going DO, then go for it. But if you're only considering it because of your lack of success this cycle, I'd hold off until you give it one more go with an improved app. Good luck

Personally, I wouldn't apply to osteopathic schools with a 3.7/30 either. I'd rather have as many opportunities to do what I want to in the future as possible, especially because I have no idea of what I will eventually specialize in. If you're pretty sure that you're set on "less competitive" specialties, then it may be worth considering--but it's important to realize you may be become interested in something "competitive" during medical school.

 

[MedPR]

Indeed. 3.7/30 does not necessitate DO application.

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[LaCroix09]

Indeed. 3.7/30 does not necessitate DO application.

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Meh, I have a 3.96/30 + strong ECs and have only a deferral for MD and an acceptance to DO.

 

[MedPR]

Meh, I have a 3.96/30 + strong ECs and have only a deferral for MD and an acceptance to DO.

When did you apply?

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[aloepathic]

To give you an idea for a different competitive specialty, urology had a 71% match rate last year (274 matched out of 381 applied), with only 2 osteopaths (Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine and AZ College of Osteopathic Medicine) and 1 international grad (American University of the Caribbean) getting residency spots. There are an additional 16 osteopathic spots, with 60ish osteopathic applicants for those spots (27% rate at best, couldn't find the exact numbers though). One could guess that most of the osteopathic applicants also applied for allopathic spots, which would mean that out of the 60 who applied only 2 got one.

Translation, definitely doable, but incredibly difficult. Why go DO if you're thinking a competitive residency? It's just going to make your life harder.

 

[LaCroix09]

When did you apply?

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August 14 I believe.

 

[marinehrnt]

You have a 3.7/30, there's no reason for you to even think about becoming a DO because MD is still a very likely option. Tweak your app and apply as early as possible next cycle. Are you still waiting on any news or is your app done for already? Don't get discouraged. There have been people on this site who've applied 3+ times with apps worse than yours who eventually got int an MD school. I know a member named starlight or something like that. I think she spent 2 or so years improving her app and applying MD, finally getting in. She doesn't regret it one bit (last I saw her post) about waiting (she vowed not to resort to going DO). Some people want it that much more (I personally would reapply to MD schools at least twice before even thinking of applying DO). If it's that important to you, another year of free time and experience really isn't that much. If you really are comfortable going DO, then go for it. But if you're only considering it because of your lack of success this cycle, I'd hold off until you give it one more go with an improved app. Good luck

If you gave up a DO spot and waited two more years for an MD acceptance you probably just threw away 350K-800k in attending salary. All I know is that the initials after my name are not worth 500K. In fact for that kind of money I will let my infant daughter pick the initials after my name and I will stick with them for the rest of my career. That's a huge chunk towards retirement where I can do the things I really want to do. 👍

 

[Mavii]

If you gave up a DO spot and waited two more years for an MD acceptance you probably just threw away 350K-800k in attending salary. All I know is that the initials after my name are not worth 500K. In fact for that kind of money I will let my infant daughter pick the initials after my name and I will stick with them for the rest of my career. That's a huge chunk towards retirement where I can do the things I really want to do. 👍

No one gave up a DO spot. I'm talking about not even applying. So many people recommend that people should take a gap year or 2 after school before applying to any med school. What is a year or 2 to get your app up to par for an MD acceptance? I take it you'd recommend everyone to finish college in 3 years and apply straight to med school to make as much money as fast as possible?

 

[tennischamp822]

.

 

[marinehrnt]

No one gave up a DO spot. I'm talking about not even applying. So many people recommend that people should take a gap year or 2 after school before applying to any med school. What is a year or 2 to get your app up to par for an MD acceptance? I take it you'd recommend everyone to finish college in 3 years and apply straight to med school to make as much money as fast as possible?

Well since I'm 34 and just attending 1st year of med school this year I wouldn't recommend that plan at all. I think a gap year is a great plan and can boost your app, I had about 12 gap years. My point was that if someone has the opportunity to attend a DO school but waits two years for an MD spot it is most likely not financially advantageous. Its not all about money but that's a big chunk to throw away. This is not an attack on you personally, just a hypothetical situation.

 

[Bacchus]

DING DING DING 👍

These are both good points.

The people I know doing highly competitive residencies (derm, radiation oncology, urology ENT etc) are on another level when in terms of work ethic, test taking skills and research/EC involvement. Even if I do MD, it will be hard to match these specialties.

Hence, I am more concerned about the moderately competitive specialties (radiology, gas, EM, Psych and the IM sub specialties). If I can get into these specialties as a DO, then I would rather do that than wait years on end to possibly get into MD school since I will have already done one gap year at the end of this cycle (only applied MD)

Also a 3.75/30 is nothing special IMO. People with higher stats that that are getting routinely rejected this year due to the increased competition in this field.

 

[mdny]

DOs are barely competitive for top specialties, like derm and plastics, and top residency programs, like JHU. Aside from those extreme cases, the only other real disadvantage is if you wanted to do research. I'm fairly certain that if you are not interested in any of the above, a DO will get you just as far as an MD would.
Hehehehe.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/emergencymedicine/residency/people/pgy2013.html

I know that EM is not as competitive as plastics/derm/ortho, but "like JHU" -- every year has at least a few DO's.

I worked/volunteered as an ER tech at New York Presby Columbia/Cornell hospitals and I've seen and worked with a handful of DO's.

just saying...

 

[2StethoscopeZ]

Here's the biggest DO disadvantage: SDN

Done.

Truuuuuuuuu

 

[BlackSwan]

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/emergencymedicine/residency/people/pgy2013.html

I know that EM is not as competitive as plastics/derm/ortho, but "like JHU" -- every year has at least a few DO's.

I worked/volunteered as an ER tech at New York Presby Columbia/Cornell hospitals and I've seen and worked with a handful of DO's.

just saying...

PGY 1 and 2 have no DOs. Maybe they stopped taking them?

 

[BlackSwan]

Truuuuuuuuu

lol

 

[mimelim]

I was told by one of the PDs on the interview trail last year that he had never seen a DO application that he thought was worth interviewing. We didn't interview any DOs this year or last year. Right or wrong and for whatever reason, there are very few DOs at competitive residencies regardless of specialty.

 

[MedPR]

I was told by one of the PDs on the interview trail last year that he had never seen a DO application that he thought was worth interviewing. We didn't interview any DOs this year or last year. Right or wrong and for whatever reason, there are very few DOs at competitive residencies regardless of specialty.

There are also very few MDs.

































notsrs.

but really...

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

 

[gasblaster]

PGY 1 and 2 have no DOs. Maybe they stopped taking them?

Looks like a new PD took over around that time. Also, appears to be ashift in the residents - PGY1 and PGY2 class has more residents from higher tier med schools. I guess importance of certain factors could've changed with the change in PD.

 

[BlackSwan]

Looks like a new PD took over around that time. Also, appears to be ashift in the residents - PGY1 and PGY2 class has more residents from higher tier med schools. I guess importance of certain factors could've changed with the change in PD.

Good catch. It looks like a new PD and Assistant PD started in 2010, then the DOs disappeared. Coincidence? Maybe. 😏

 

[Mehd School]

I doubt a single person that has posted in this thread ends up at JHU anyway. It's hard to measure against something when you don't know their intentions in the first place.

 

[Bacchus]

PGY 1 and 2 have no DOs. Maybe they stopped taking them?

I know people who attended interviews at JHU this year for anes and PMR.

 

[marinehrnt]

I doubt a single person that has posted in this thread ends up at JHU anyway. It's hard to measure against something when you don't know their intentions in the first place.

So very true. There is a sense on sdn that an MD equals any residency you want. While it may make life a little easy its not a golden ticket to just walk in anywhere. Believe it of not MD's actually even go into primary care, shocking I know.

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[GopherMD]

After applying to solely MD programs last year unsuccessfully, I will gladly be attending a DO program (CCOM) this year if I don't get accepted to a MD program (3 interviews: 1 rejection, 1 hold, 1 result pending). Reapplying a third time is just not worth the time and hassle IMO. I have a 3.7/30 with good EC's and I don't want to waste a year of my life marginally improving my application if I have already been accepted to a medical school.

 

[Hemorrage]

Theres a couple of a obvious reasons why people don't want to go DO.

1. You have to learn OMM
2. Have to take 2 board exams.. STEP 1 is hard as it is by itself
3. You spend 4 years of your life learning the exact same stuff as your MD counterparts and yet you get a degree that people on SDN compare to being a Janitor. (Look at pre-osteo)

 

[Mehd School]

Theres a couple of a obvious reasons why people don't want to go DO.

1. You have to learn OMM
2. Have to take 2 board exams.. STEP 1 is hard as it is by itself
3. You spend 4 years of your life learning the exact same stuff as your MD counterparts and yet you get a degree that people on SDN compare to being a Janitor. (Look at pre-osteo)

1. Correct
2. You only have to take 1 board exam.
3. No one in the real world gives a damn about what kids on SDN think.

 

[NeuroLAX]

Theres a couple of a obvious reasons why people don't want to go DO.

1. You have to learn OMM
2. Have to take 2 board exams.. STEP 1 is hard as it is by itself
3. You spend 4 years of your life learning the exact same stuff as your MD counterparts and yet you get a degree that people on SDN compare to being a Janitor. (Look at pre-osteo)

1. Learning OMM is not that bad. OMT can be very useful in the right situations, and the research is starting to trickle out. Evidence-based medicine is not a bad thing.
2. One board exam, two if you choose to. Many osteopathic students study predominantly for the USMLE and supplement OMM material for the COMLEX.
3. Ever heard of reductio ad absurdum?

 

[drshark]

Theres a couple of a obvious reasons why people don't want to go DO.

1. You have to learn OMM
2. Have to take 2 board exams.. STEP 1 is hard as it is by itself
3. You spend 4 years of your life learning the exact same stuff as your MD counterparts and yet you get a degree that people on SDN compare to being a Janitor. (Look at pre-osteo)

1. DO students that I know personally enjoy what they learn in OMM, although they will probably never use it, it's cool to still have under their belt.
2. .
3. It's called SARCASM, although many socially awkward pre-meds who spend all their free time on SDN may have never heard of such a notion 😉

 

[Hemorrage]

1. DO students that I know personally enjoy what they learn in OMM, although they will probably never use it, it's cool to still have under their belt.
2. .
3. It's called SARCASM, although many socially awkward pre-meds who spend all their free time on SDN may have never heard of such a notion 😉

No i understand its sarcasm but it unfair to both DO's and DO students that the degree as valuable as it is gets trashed around so much. I think once the DO degree gets the respect it deserves from society it will even out. Hopefully this will occur within the next 20 years as 1/5 medical students are now DO. This wasn't the case 10-20 years ago.

Think about it this way. An american trained DO physician is if anything better equipped to treat and understand the clinical problems of american society, yet for the past 20-30 years foreign grads with MBBS's and every other title possible came here and practiced under the "MD" title. There is absolutely no reason DO physicians have to put up with the bias that exists against their title.

 

[NeuroLAX]

No i understand its sarcasm but it unfair to both DO and DO students that the degree as valuable as it is gets trashed around so much. I think once the DO degree gets the respect it deserves from society it will even out. Hopefully this will occur within the next 20 years as 1/5 medical students are now DO. This wasn't the case 10-20 years ago.

SDN opinions should not be misconstrued as reality. In other words, it's largely in your cerebrum. You don't need to get a Harvard/Yale/JHU residency to be a well-respected physician. Period.

 

[TriagePreMed]

DOs are barely competitive for top specialties, like derm and plastics, and top residency programs, like JHU. Aside from those extreme cases, the only other real disadvantage is if you wanted to do research. I'm fairly certain that if you are not interested in any of the above, a DO will get you just as far as an MD would.

Hehehehe.

I always hear this story about being at a disadvantage if you want to do research, but how true is it? Most DOs have historically been trained to be clinicians and the physicians themselves mostly go with a clinician mentality. Maybe getting a big faculty position at Stanford or something like that would be hard, but I doubt that if you want to do research you wouldn't get hired at an average rank school if you have publications and research experience under your belt (mostly from residency).

 

[drshark]

SDN seems to intensify the "stereotype" x100000. As long as DO's get payed like MD's do, then there is no bias in my opinion. Whether you go to Harvard or PCOM, your paycheck will most likely be the same as any other doc out there in the same specialty.

 

[r1d1]

I was told by one of the PDs on the interview trail last year that he had never seen a DO application that he thought was worth interviewing. We didn't interview any DOs this year or last year. Right or wrong and for whatever reason, there are very few DOs at competitive residencies regardless of specialty.

Some people need that prestige to feel special. Like some adcom members at elite med schools don't even look at applications from no name public universities. I think it is rather unfortunate and immature, but underprivileged applicants won't fit in that kind of environment any way.

 

[WhovianDO]

For once... a productive MD/DO thread.

 

[Ost3oclast]

For once... a productive MD/DO thread.

Seriously. This is how it should go.

 

[WhovianDO]

Seriously. This is how it should go.

For realz...

I'm going to a DO school and I'm just happy to have the chance. I don't plan on going into a ROAD specialty, nor am I interested in academic medicine. Gen Surg, ENT, and PEDs are what I'm interested in, but that will most likely change during rotations. Sure, there will be obstacles, but I'm up for the challenge.

I haven't started school yet, so ill leave the worrying about residencies for the M4s. I'm going to spend the next 2 years focused on the boards and doing my best. I don't want my board score to be what limits my options in residencies like my MCAT limited my options on med schools.

 

[Ost3oclast]

For realz...

I'm going to a DO school and I'm just happy to have the chance. I don't plan on going into a ROAD specialty, nor am I interested in academic medicine. Gen Surg, ENT, and PEDs are what I'm interested in, but that will most likely change during rotations. Sure, there will be obstacles, but I'm up for the challenge.

I haven't started school yet, so ill leave the worrying about residencies for the M4s. I'm going to spend the next 2 years focused on the boards and doing my best. I don't want my board score to be what limits my options in residencies like my MCAT limited my options on med schools.

Im the same way. Only thing I'm interested in thats really competitive is ortho but I would totally be happy in something like cards, g surg or sports med. more than likely I will be attending a DO school this fall as well. I dont need a prestigious college, residency or job. I want good training that I can take home to a small rural town and live out the rest of my days. Haha

 

[NeuroLAX]

Some people need that prestige to feel special. Like some adcom members at elite med schools don't even look at applications from no name public universities. I think it is rather unfortunate and immature, but underprivileged applicants won't fit in that kind of environment any way.

The bold part is huge. It is evident in the resident profiles at top-top residencies. For instance, I've looked at the current and past neurology resident profiles at Harvard, Yale, JHU, etc. and I'm seeing a theme of accepting MDs and MD/PhDs from big-name medical schools. Is this a coincidence? I hardly think so. But it makes you ask: where's the representation from "lower-tier" MD schools? Why aren't they matching at these places? One could argue that MDs from non-"top-tier" institutions face many of the same "bias" problems DOs do when it comes to competitive residencies at places like Harvard. For whatever reason, they are simply not what Harvard and the like are interested in. Big deal... life goes on. You don't need the most competitive and highly coveted residency to succeed.

 

[MedPR]

So very true. There is a sense on sdn that an MD equals any residency you want. While it may make life a little easy its not a golden ticket to just walk in anywhere. Believe it of not MD's actually even go into primary care, shocking I know.

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I don't think anyone on SDN feels this way. It's moreso the misconception that everything besides FM/IM/PM&R is impossible for DO.

 

[NeuroLAX]

I don't think anyone on SDN feels this way. It's moreso the misconception that everything besides FM/IM/PM&R is impossible for DO.

Indeed.

 

[MedPR]

August 14 I believe.

You submitted AMCAS on Aug 14? Or were verified?

 

[Bacchus]

Indeed.

I wonder what would happen if they saw my class' future match list in anesthesia, surgery, neurology, psychiatry, OB/GYN, radiology, etc.?

 

[La Presse]

Present!

DOs have many options in the DO world and around the world, very few in the MD world beyond the same basic ones that a DO student could have applied for there (Primary Care)...in the first place. Do well on your USMLE and COMLEX and only a few doors will be absolutely shut to you. Consider that many of those research institutions are deep in 'da hood,' and SDN can't protect you there.

For those with Tiger parents, go Carribean over DO and have only the choices that the USMD and DO students left behind in an attempt to please your parents and the spouse they have chosen for you.

General surgery: Morning rounds, Lap chole, lap chole, hernia repair, lap chole, lyse adhesion, then:
office hours denying Percocet and Morphine pumps to half your patients while pulling staples and stiches, then:
evening rounds where you poke the belly, do a DRE, insert NG tube and order a stool osmolarity just for fun with the 3 x C. diff. toxin assay that makes the nurses hate you.
Back the next 6 days for more of this. Enjoy.

DO: "Tastes great!"
MD: Less feeling.
That sucked, I need more coffee.

For all the rest, please use the search button.

Peace out.

You still mad about that other thread, homeboy? Well, for this post you have earned yourself this:

 

[NeuroLAX]

I wonder what would happen if they saw my class' future match list in anesthesia, surgery, neurology, psychiatry, OB/GYN, radiology, etc.?

You're at PCOM, right? They're known for putting out a decent number of specialists.

NSU-COM also puts out a decent number of specialists. The biggest group overall is IM.

 

[MedPR]

Theres a couple of a obvious reasons why people don't want to go DO.

1. You have to learn OMM
2. Have to take 2 board exams.. STEP 1 is hard as it is by itself
3. You spend 4 years of your life learning the exact same stuff as your MD counterparts and yet you get a degree that people on SDN compare to being a Janitor. (Look at pre-osteo)

lol at 2 and 3.

 

[MedPR]

I wonder what would happen if they saw my class' future match list in anesthesia, surgery, neurology, psychiatry, OB/GYN, radiology, etc.?

You should know as well as anyone that a single match list means nothing.

 

[LaCroix09]

You submitted AMCAS on Aug 14? Or were verified?

Submitted. Application (including secondary) was finished before they even started opening files. I had a very early interview that went well. I'm currently deferred, and I'll hear back near the end of the month. I have to believe that one of my interviewers didn't like me. I'm also a white male, which doesn't help. Aside from those things, my stats are above average for the school.

 

[Bacchus]

Its consistent and the top DO schools have students matching into these residencies every year. There is an ebb and flow based on the desires of the class. This year it seems PMR and EM are big at my school. These aren't ivy league residencies, but nonetheless they are the desired field.