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These field are known to be, at the least, moderately DO friendly. Not a huge revelation. Especially neuro, psych, and ob/gyn. Most years there are programs that go unfilled.
DO Disadvantages?
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These field are known to be, at the least, moderately DO friendly. Not a huge revelation. Especially neuro, psych, and ob/gyn. Most years there are programs that go unfilled.
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Hopkins is hardly a "top" EM program. It's not even the best EM program in Baltimore--it is universally agreed that U Maryland is better.
Common mistake though--EM is one of those specialties where the traditional powerhouses of medicine aren't necessarily the powerhouses of the specialty.
Note--this isn't meant in any way to contradict the assertion that EM is pretty DO-friendly as ACGME specialties go.
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For those physicians that don't have a desire to go into academics or research does it really matter if they attend a "top" program? Using myself as an example: I'm intereted in EM but plan on living in a smaller city (under 100,000) and have no desire to do research or teach at any point. Does it really matter for someone with such aspirations where they complete their residency? I guess with all the talk about "top" programs it got me thinking if it really matters to a large number future physicians? Obviously we all want good training to become competent physicians but I would assume programs outside of the "prestigious" ones could also accomplish this goal. Thoughts?
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Not sure what school(s) you're talking about, but I'm pretty sure every school starts reviewing files before September and, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure your aacomas wasn't verified until September.
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I know, they just failed to mention those fields earlier.
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I agree with this but doesn't it help to have done training at a well known residency when applying to jobs?
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Only (mostly) for academic positions.
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I see. Thanks.
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Yeah, especially for positions like the chief of a department.
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Assuming you're referring to my post about IM/FM/PM&R, I was talking about a dumb misconception by many on SDN (I was defending DO).
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You still mad about that other thread, homeboy? Well, for this post you have earned yourself this:
@LaPest:
Not mad at all; please don't think you're the first kid born with a silver spoon in his mouth to venture onto this site. The arrogance and neediness is still as pathetic as it was the last time. Maybe I'm not fully updated on your situation; you could have decided to grow a pair and get a job like the rest of us mere mortals, move out of your parent's house and take a few undergraduate loans to help pay for your own life on your own terms. If not, I'm still not mad at you, I would almost feel sorry for you, but that would be a waste of my time since you are set in your/your parent's ways for good. This lifestyle choice is not specific to any culture, any one of them can bait their kids with dangling a carrot in front of them (usually some late model German car) while brandishing the stick, gasp(!) being cut off entirely. I forget the show, but one had a kid go to the bathroom every hour to call his dad and ask him what to do with a patient. He was doing well until he got caught, sanctioned and ridiculed for it. I loved that.
Anyways, I don't see why there are so many references to JH, Harvard, Yale, etc. with regards to training for the medical degree and GME programs all over SDN. There is definitely a self-selecting group that has all of the things on their transcript correct, but also has a connection to the school through legacy or funding a chair or a whole classroom on someone's behalf.
Most people would not take the pay cut to go into academic medicine if given the opportunity, especially most of us that are looking to pay our loans back as soon as possible, so doing something for this avenue this early in their career probably wouldn't be preferable. I definitely don't think that the group of people willing to forgo a year or two of physician's salary just to see if they can get into an MD school while holding a DO acceptance letter and a deposit receipt for a few thousand dollars is that big anymore. That's another SDN myth.
Those that make it into medical school, don't party too much their first two years, aren't a liability to their school and fellow classmates and/or go gunner-style in clinical rotations are doing well but entering another applicant pool that's even more competitive, the one for the GME spots all over the US that have good locations, training sites and faculty to resident ratios that are reasonable. Your MSPE determines much of how you will fare in this arena. I love sniping gunners after I catch them pulling some crap on the other people coming through. Since I happen to have the link handy, the first 10ish pages determine what will happen for the start of your career no matter where you go; the rest is up to you.
https://www.aamc.org/download/139542/data/mspe.pdf
If anyone wants to post here that they got a 290/105th percentile on their Step exams and aced every rotation and was able to get into one of those programs, go ahead. Oh wait, everyone on SDN has done that. If you want to be helpful to the large majority of people that come through here, talk about the opportunities at a grouping of programs that represents a larger number of spots than maybe 16 to 20 spots total per program.
Anyways, I'll let LaPest go back to whining about his sanity and get back to work. You do work by now, Pest, right?
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Can't hurt, typically helps.
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I was merely commenting on the fact that Hopkins wouldn't be considered a top EM program and, more broadly, that the traditional "top schools" aren't necessarily the top EM programs. The point still stands that there are many top EM programs (Emory, Indiana, Denver, and others) which are willing to consider DO's.
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University of Oklahoma COM. I don't know the exact dates, but I know that my application (including secondary) was finished before they looked at anyone's application, unless of course, the ad coordinator misspoke on the phone.
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Wait, you only applied to one MD school?
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Anyways, I'll let LaPest go back to whining about his sanity and get back to work. You do work by now, Pest, right?
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I definitely enjoy a battle of wits, but find it hard to do so with an unarmed person like LaPest.
Back to the thread as its candor unfolds further...here's to some of the best stuff to come out of Harvard, ever:
http://www.noob.us/humor/conan-obriens-harvard-commencement-speech-video/
http://www.noob.us/humor/family-guy-voice-actor-seth-macfarlanes-harvard-class-day-speech-2006/
Yale may have a different sense of humor, but it's still great stuff:
http://www.tomhanks-online.com/media/video/detail/444/yale-commencement-speech/
I have been known to bring the funny.
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I think he means Oklahoma State University COM, and he is correct that they did not begin reviewing applications until the start of October this year as one of their admission staff was on maternity leave.
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You still mad about that other thread, homeboy? Well, for this post you have earned yourself this:
@LaPest:
Not mad at all; please don't think you're the first kid born with a silver spoon in his mouth to venture onto this site. The arrogance and neediness is still as pathetic as it was the last time. Maybe I'm not fully updated on your situation; you could have decided to grow a pair and get a job like the rest of us mere mortals, move out of your parent's house and take a few undergraduate loans to help pay for your own life on your own terms. If not, I'm still not mad at you, I would almost feel sorry for you, but that would be a waste of my time since you are set in your/your parent's ways for good. This lifestyle choice is not specific to any culture, any one of them can bait their kids with dangling a carrot in front of them (usually some late model German car) while brandishing the stick, gasp(!) being cut off entirely. I forget the show, but one had a kid go to the bathroom every hour to call his dad and ask him what to do with a patient. He was doing well until he got caught, sanctioned and ridiculed for it. I loved that.
Anyways, I don't see why there are so many references to JH, Harvard, Yale, etc. with regards to training for the medical degree and GME programs all over SDN. There is definitely a self-selecting group that has all of the things on their transcript correct, but also has a connection to the school through legacy or funding a chair or a whole classroom on someone's behalf.
Most people would not take the pay cut to go into academic medicine if given the opportunity, especially most of us that are looking to pay our loans back as soon as possible, so doing something for this avenue this early in their career probably wouldn't be preferable. I definitely don't think that the group of people willing to forgo a year or two of physician's salary just to see if they can get into an MD school while holding a DO acceptance letter and a deposit receipt for a few thousand dollars is that big anymore. That's another SDN myth.
Those that make it into medical school, don't party too much their first two years, aren't a liability to their school and fellow classmates and/or go gunner-style in clinical rotations are doing well but entering another applicant pool that's even more competitive, the one for the GME spots all over the US that have good locations, training sites and faculty to resident ratios that are reasonable. Your MSPE determines much of how you will fare in this arena. I love sniping gunners after I catch them pulling some crap on the other people coming through. Since I happen to have the link handy, the first 10ish pages determine what will happen for the start of your career no matter where you go; the rest is up to you.
https://www.aamc.org/download/139542/data/mspe.pdf
If anyone wants to post here that they got a 290/105th percentile on their Step exams and aced every rotation and was able to get into one of those programs, go ahead. Oh wait, everyone on SDN has done that. If you want to be helpful to the large majority of people that come through here, talk about the opportunities at a grouping of programs that represents a larger number of spots than maybe 16 to 20 spots total per program.
Anyways, I'll let LaPest go back to whining about his sanity and get back to work. You do work by now, Pest, right?
http://goo.gl/nEMC7
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Please utilize the ignore function and not crowd SDN with disputes.
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one could argue that but one would be wrong. where you go to med school matters in residency apps/matching. it's true that students from top schools are most represented at top residencies. however those same residencies are equally interested in recruiting top students from "not top-tier" US MD schools. on the other hand apps from DO students are not considered at almost all top programs in any specialty and only the very best DO students get interviews at mid-tier programs, even in a "non-competitive" specialty like IM. the hurdle is nowhere near as high for "not top-tier" US MD students as it is for DO students.
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This is true. I would say there is not as much a bias against non-top tier med schools, it's more of a "bias" for top tier med schools. However, DOs still seem to face a legit prejudice.
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Something no one has mentioned yet is that most DO schools (other than the University of North Texas's COM and maybe 2 others) are generally more expensive than MD schools, especially in-state MD schools. Furthermore, I've found that the DO schools to which I applied generally have less institutional support than MD schools.
Other than finances, your willingness to learn OMM, and your interest in pursuing global health as an independent, outside of an organization like Doctors Without Borders, the "disadvantages" are largely opinions rather than substantive issues that will affect you at any point in your academic or professional careers.
In addition to skinMD's comments, perhaps this is also reflective of meta competition considering the inordinately high board scores necessary for specialties like Derm, Plastics, etc. (e.g., range of Plastics USMLE Step 1 is 245 to 260, with a mean of 250). Thus, when comparing applicants with board scores that high for such a small group of residency spots, it would stand to reason that the higher tier graduates are more representative within that field based on comparative juxtaposition, forcing those that don't match into their second choice specialties. If you get down and dirty, I'd put money on finding graduates of lower ranked schools with high boards in more low to mid tier residencies at Ivy schools (e.g., FM, IM to GenSurg & Neuro). I'm just thinking aloud, though, and have no solid data to back up my hypotheses...
Other than finances, your willingness to learn OMM, and your interest in pursuing global health as an independent, outside of an organization like Doctors Without Borders, the "disadvantages" are largely opinions rather than substantive issues that will affect you at any point in your academic or professional careers.
In addition to skinMD's comments, perhaps this is also reflective of meta competition considering the inordinately high board scores necessary for specialties like Derm, Plastics, etc. (e.g., range of Plastics USMLE Step 1 is 245 to 260, with a mean of 250). Thus, when comparing applicants with board scores that high for such a small group of residency spots, it would stand to reason that the higher tier graduates are more representative within that field based on comparative juxtaposition, forcing those that don't match into their second choice specialties. If you get down and dirty, I'd put money on finding graduates of lower ranked schools with high boards in more low to mid tier residencies at Ivy schools (e.g., FM, IM to GenSurg & Neuro). I'm just thinking aloud, though, and have no solid data to back up my hypotheses...
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It is as competitive (if not more competitive) to match at a top IM program (MGH, JHU, UPenn, Columbia, etc) than it is to match in Derm. I know this is mind-blowing for anyone who frequents SDN.
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You must not have clicked on the link I included in my comments about Step scores. The top of the range in IM is 240 with a bottom at 210 and a mean hovering at 228. The bottom of the range in Derm is 235 with a top around 255 and a mean at about 247; so it can't be more competitive than IM. And saying it's just as competitive is a bit iffy.
I wasn't saying it was easy by any means. It certainly requires much higher scores and is extraordinarily difficult to match at those programs in any specialty. But matching IM at an Ivy/Top ranked program is certainly, as a whole, not nearly as difficult as matching to Derm or Plastics based on the data.
EDIT: To clarify, I'm using Step 1 scores, which are available at the time of residency applications.
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you seem to be confusing "range" with standard deviation. if you go to page 101 you'll see that there are plenty of US seniors with step 1 scores above 240 who apply to IM. 773 to be exact. Also if you look at page 100 you'll see that only 138 applied to more than one specialty... and if i had to guess the vast majority of those are people who have lower step scores and are applying to IM as a backup to a specialty in which they are not competitive and therefore not part of the 773 mentioned earlier.
IM is a VERY heterogeneous specialty where the majority of programs are very noncompetitive. As a result the averages are diluted and brought down significantly. If you remember back to high school (or any biostatistics course you may have taken), the mean is a bad way of characterizing a sample with a lot of variation.
Simply to get an interview at a top IM program you need to have a step 1 and/or step 2 score of 240-250+ and be toward the top of your med school class.
again, i realize i am challenging SDN folklore with reality which is always unpopular.
for reference I am a 4th year med student applying IM (with a step 1 score above what you seemed to believe was the upper limit score of anyone who would possibly apply IM) so i sortof know what i'm talking about.
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IMO, matching any derm program vs internal at a top 5 program is prob equivalent in competitiveness.
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I stand corrected. I pride myself on accuracy and admitting when I'm wrong. I'm familiar with how poorly means represent a sample with high variability and just didn't see those stats. I also don't buy into folklore and come to my own conclusions. And, man, in this case I came to a very incorrect conclusion. In fact, I was just talking to my friend (IM Chief Res here) and mentioned our conversation. He scored a 260.
Live, make mistakes, and learn. 🙂
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Good guy SDNer.
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We exist. 🙂
Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile app. Please excuse brevity and/or typos.
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I have read many posts by you. You are one of the classiest guys on SDN.
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As a soon-to-be DO, this is false.
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Wait, I'm confused then. I've read here that if you have an excellence performance in the licensing steps then you can land your desire residency.
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Ya, no. One can match into many ACGME fields as a DO. But, doing well on one exam is not going to make you attractive to the more competitive programs/fields.
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I could score a 700+ on my COMLEX I and II and I bet I still wouldn't get an optho residency that is ACGME.
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That is depressing :/
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Hahahaha, It took me a second by this is the best lol I've gotten from SDN. Well said. Thanks Lizzy.
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Not the one with OMM, the real licensing exam. The USMLE. And if you scored a 270 on it I have no doubt you could match optho.
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I see, but I was thinking the USMLE scores. Granted I didn't read the whole thread, I was under the impression that if you were an excellent candidate, comparable to other MD candidates, residency in competitive fields wouldn't be an issue for DOs.
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LOLololol this sounds like something taken out of a verbal passage from the MCAT
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Right or wrong. This is not true. It is not impossible to match into competitive fields if you are a strong applicant coming out of DO schools. But it is difficult and certainly more difficult than as an MD candidate.
On the other hand, as I stated previous, there aren't that many strong DO candidates applying to those programs per PDs.
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Got it. Thanks
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Tuition is actually comparable. It's not a MD/DO thing, it's a private/public thing. Tuition at private MD schools are just as ridiculous as private DO schools.
Tuition for PCOM (2012-2013) is $42,965
Tuition for LECOM is $29,820 for 2012-2013 (same whether instate or out of state)
Tuition for Jefferson Medical College (2012-2013) is $50,236
Tuition for Temple University SOM (2012-2013) for their in-state residents is $43,654 ($53,468 for out of state)
Tuition for Drexel COM is $47,980 (estimated, 2012-2013 from their website)
Tuition for University of Pennsylvania SOM is $47,090 (2012-2013)
Tuition for Penn State College of Medicine instate resident is $41,860 ($49,984 for out of state residents)
Tuition for University of Pittsburgh instate resident is $44,726 ($45,846 for out of state resident)
As you can see, in Pennsylvania, the DO schools are cheaper than the MD schools.
In NY, NYIT-NYCOM is $48,490. But NYMC is $47,890, Mount Sinai is $41,238, and Einstein/Yeshiva is $42,833. SUNY Downstate is $29,530 for instate residents (2 semesters), but $54,650 for out of state residents (2 semesters).
So as you can see, it's not so much "DO more expensive, MD cheaper" but more private vs public, with DO schools being comparable to MD schools when it comes to tuition.
However, you are right that there are more institutional support from MD schools (many factors, including larger alumni base, larger endowment, etc). DO schools that have been around for decades/centuries have larger alumni base (and more institutional support) than schools that was started within the last decade. So while tuition may be similar, depending on the school, some may offer more institutional assistance than others. UNECOM, Western/COMP, and WVSOM are known for their high student loan debt (2010 graduates had debts of $213k, $203k, and $229k respectively). But they are comparable (in terms of debt) to other MD schools, such as Temple ($201k), Drexel ($205k), GWU ($205k), NYU ($182k)
So basically a pre-medical student, looking at the MD vs DO debate, can't use MD vs DO when it comes to cost of attendance and institutional support. They will have to look at each individual schools that they are interested in, to see both tuition, required fees (which have not been mentioned, just tuition information have been posted), plus cost of living (ie living in Kirksville is cheaper than living in NYC/Long Island), along with possible institutional support (grants/scholarships).
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This is very true. Im applying EM, am a DO with excellent scores and application(comlex 1 732 comlex 2 688 usmle 1 250 usmle 2 258, class rank 3/75. EMT/ED tech for 7 years and several national leadership positions) and I had to apply to twice as many programs as MD students with worse stats just to get the same number of interviews. Dont fool yourselves, being a DO is a hindrance even with great stats. Ill most likely match, regardless, but it was definately harder.
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Do you think it will get better in the future? Any advise to aspiring DO's.
