DO discrimination? Is it overblown?

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superkiwi said:
a website my dad found about DO's in derm:

http://p220.ezboard.com/fdermatologyfrm29.showMessage?topicID=531.topic
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I am not impressed. A few of the anonymous posters claim that DO schools are not legitimate medical schools. Whatever.

The bottom line is this: DO schools for the most part are less competitive medical schools, with a few exceptions. Whether you are going to a weaker MD program in the US/Canada or are going to a foreign medical school, you are going to be less competitive than someone that attended a big name school. DO vs. MD behind your name will not change that. That said, D.O.'s do have a harder time trying to get into the most competitive residencies, and that would make sense to me.
However, the D.O.s that truly do kick ass, and outperform everyone else across the board, will end up scoring great residencies.

This topic gets discussed at great length on this board. I am really growing tired of the argument, but I do not think that it will end any time soon. As long as the AOA is not allowing MDs in our osteopathic residencies, as long as we D.O.s are still taking the COMLEX instead of the USMLE + a subset OMT exam, and so long as people are still arguing on the internet about things they do not truly understand or experience, then we will still have some level of DO and MD discrimination.

The allopathic and osteopathic philosophies really are not all that different in the end, and this is especially true of residency. Unless you are going to be an OMT specialist, and a few FP/IM residencies, there is really not a whole lot of OMT being performed at D.O. residencies.
 
H0mersimps0n said:
The biggest place I've seen discrimination is at A-hole medical schools like University of Maryland that only allow visiting students in on elective rotations if they come from ACGME Accredited schools. By definition osteopathic schools can not obtain this Accreditation and therefore can not rotate there.

Our AOA rep told us there were some other schools that did that and the AOA sucessfully sued them, aparently the UMD giant is too big to tackle.

Otherwise not too bad if you don't mind some major badgering during allo residency interviews and such... and unless you don't care about getting a quality education you'll probably be applying to at least a few allo residency programs because good osteo programs are few and far between these days. Be prepped for the "pressure interviews" because they will happen (not always but definitely will)...

$.02
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😡
also u of virginia
😡
 
USAFGMODOC said:
As a DO who has applied to allopathic rads, I can tell you without hesitation that discrimination does exist, although it is subtle and overt at most places. Many of my rotations as a MS were at allopathic programs and they were oblivious to DO's in many cases due to very little previous exposure.

Oddly enough, once I did well and outperformed many of the "top" MD's the most flak I caught was from the other MS's who felt threatened. During my intern year there were 10 DO's and 17 MD's in the program and oddly enough the DO's/MD thing was really only a problem for the 1st year MD's who felt insecure about themselves.

I am now working in the USAF as a Primary care doc, when I arrived I was the first DO they had had in years out of 7 docs. They didn't really "say" anything derogatory to me, but after being there 6-8 months and they figured out I actually knew I was a competent doc, several of them said to me over a beer "wow, we didn't know DO's actually were comparable to "us" (MD's)."

When I told them I was applying to Radiology, they snickered and sneered b/c even in the military, radiology is very competative. Well, now I'm heading off to radiology this summer in San Antonio as 1 of 2 DO's of 24 residents. I can't wait to break down this ridiculous barrier.

My spin is, a DO or an MD can be good or bad. I like being able to show other physicians whom are unfamiliar with DO's due to lack of exposure that we are "not inferior" because of our training. Many of you in FP probably won't experience much of this type of discrimination, but if you are applying for ER/OB/Surgery/Rads/Gas-- you will likely notice this occurs.

Moral is- if you work/study hard, you can get into most programs. Study hard for the boards and if you are applying to a very competative field (allopathic) and you take the USMLE and score well, you have a shot.
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Congrats on Rads. I went the Rad Onc route, military FTOS.

I agree with the above post.

I think one problem that DO students face is this....if you have the #10 guy from Harvard and the # 10 guy from (AZCOM) my school, and can only interview one, who do you choose. Equal GPA, board scores, etc....you can only compare the students on paper. Brand name will likely win.
Put AZCOM and Harvard together on the same rotation and the DO student blows him away in performance, now you have a better shot at getting the interview.
I had a great interview road in a very low # DO specialty. All PD were friendly, didn't ask what a DO was, and had a very professional attitude. The programs that I didn't interview at may have had a bias against us, but if that is the case, why the heck would I want to go there??
 
exlawgrrl said:
I was looking at University of Minnesota's website, and they stated that they only allow LCME-approved students to rotate there, too. I guess it's not the norm, but it's not super uncommon. What I'm failing to get is how it's illegal unless there's some statute specifically dealing with this type of discrimination. As a rule, you can't discriminate on the basis of age, race, religion, etc., but everyhing else is fair game.
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could you provide a link to where you found this information? i know several students from my school (DMU) that've rotated at the UofMN without a problem.
 
Although it sucks that these MD SCHOOLS will not sponsor DO students for visiting electives, understand that the schools are technically operating under a different business umbrella. I guess they can call the shots however they want to, but overall it is pointless for them to do so.....

.....just like it is pointless for the AOA to say no to MD's who would want to do residency at a DO hospital.

Now for residency , as a resident, you are, pretty much, a government-funded employee who, in return for specialty training, are doing work at a hospital on behalf of an attending physician.

I'm not even sure if this fits into this particular thread, but since it's been a topic of conversation I thought I'd throw in my 0.02.
 
medhacker said:
Of course it is. The AOA has continually succeeded at gaining rotation rights, hospital medical staff privileges, and restitution for damages from institutions who have unlawfully discriminated against DOs based solely on the nature of their training. Contact the AOA litigation committee and lay a hand for future DO generations. If we don't speak up and make our rights be respected unlawfull discrimination will surely continue.
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From the perspective of the MD student with no pimply-faced-premed-MD-is-better-complex and has friends who are loving their medical educations at UNECOM, NYCOM, and CCOM:

I hate the little ba$***** who insult one degree vs the other on here. I just see a whole bunch of Dr's, which is what our patients will also see. And hopefully, PD's will see as well.

Here's the thing though, and please correct me if I don't understand all the players involved.

DO student can't get in to do a one month rotation at an allopathic hospital and the hospital gets sued for discrimination, because according to the AOA, DO=MD. No worries, this is all cool with me. This is a problem that seems to be getting fixed around the nation, if I understand what I'm reading on here.

At the same time, MD students can't apply to osteopathic slots for a federally funded residency position. And this is because according to the AOA, DO does NOT equal MD. This is also done regardless of whether or not the student has taken one or even multiple OMM clerkships at one of the allopathic med schools that offer it.

I hadn't planned on pursuing an osteopathic residency. But I understand how it could be frustrating to an MD student who developed an interest in OMM while in allopathic training, and was now being (to quote the thread above) "unlawfully discriminated against based solely on the nature of their training". Exactly the type of thing the AOA successfully argues against.

(I do understand that this is an issue that DO students don't have any control over, but rather a group of higher-ups that I usually hear referred to as "wacky", "crazy", or something else along those lines)

I guess my whole point of relating this to the thread topic was that discrimination sucks, I like what DrMaryC was saying on the other thread and "yay for equality!!". Sorry if I'm off topic or pissing off anyone. Wasn't my intention.
 
bore....I couldn't agree w/ you more...but really when was the last time that you heard of an MD who wanted to learn OMM just so they could get into a DO residency. If it was the case that an MD did really want to get into a DO residency and passed some sort of comprehensive OMM test....then I see no reason to keep him/her out. However...politics will be politics....there are no words that I could offer to defend that....
 
how many osteopaths opt for surgical subs?
 
large bore said:
From the perspective of the MD student with no pimply-faced-premed-MD-is-better-complex and has friends who are loving their medical educations at UNECOM, NYCOM, and CCOM:

At the same time, MD students can't apply to osteopathic slots for a federally funded residency position. And this is because according to the AOA, DO does NOT equal MD. This is also done regardless of whether or not the student has taken one or even multiple OMM clerkships at one of the allopathic med schools that offer it.

I hadn't planned on pursuing an osteopathic residency. But I understand how it could be frustrating to an MD student who developed an interest in OMM while in allopathic training, and was now being (to quote the thread above) "unlawfully discriminated against based solely on the nature of their training". Exactly the type of thing the AOA successfully argues against./QUOTE]

I agree wholeheartedly that if an MD has gained knowledge of osteopathic principles and manipulation and wants to pursue an AOA residency, then he or she should be permitted to apply and interview like everyone else. I think if an allopathic student took the AOA on in court over this issue he or she would have a good chance at winning.
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It is purely political

If MD students can do residencies at DO schools after being trained in OMM then the DO degree, the AOA and many other osteopathic things would cease to have a reason to exist.

And believe me, the AOA will not allow to go out that easy. The contention of the AOA, and of at least one school I was interviewed at, is that while a DO student has been trained in everything an MD student has, she or he has also received for four years a training which is unlike that of an MD. So in their contention a DO = MD student plus many other things. A DO is not = to an MD plus OMM. In this manner, MDs could not possibly do a DO residency for they would have to have attended a four year DO school in order to receive the "entire" education which makes a DO a DO. As you can see this leaves MDs out of DO residencies while it makes a DO more than prepared for an MD one.


It is completely political, and if you ask me I agree. Was it not for this Jeaolusy on behalf of the AOA I think many of us would not have had a chance to become a physician or specialize in an area of choice. So with all due respect, I also agree that DO is not = MD + OMM.
 
JPHazelton said:
...especially after they learn that I am an OMM Fellow and can treat them.
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What's an Omm fellow? Can other DO's not perform the same treatments?
 
Flea girl said:
The West Coast I have heard is not as friendly to us. But no personal experience myself.
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Is this true?

What about California?
 
Location if definitely important. I'm an MS4. Here's my input...I am a competetive applicant (as far as boards, grades, experience, etc.) and applied for internal medicine MD and DO. I received some interviews at competetive places, but some are notoriously known to not interview DO's...especially the old-school "prestigious" places. My philosophy is why want them if the don't want you. Just realize that it's out there. There are some places that will never interview a D.O., but you'll never know unless you apply. As far as the actual interviews; I had over 10 allopathic interviews and only one was "pressured"...I had to justify my clinical years at community hospitals vs. big places. As I said this was only one place. most were very good and it didn't even come up. It's also region specific...in midwest no big deal b/c they're exposed to it more...in Cali I had a resident ask me what a D.O. was-it was then that I realized I wasn't at the most osteopathically-attuned program. He was more interested than negative about it.

My feeling is that I am proud to be a D.O. and feel we are just as qualified to practice evidence-based medicine in the U.S., and even more qualified to practice preventive medicine (if chosen to be applied in our philosophy). Personally, I am considering ranking a program as #1 for residency which has no D.O.'s in it. I think if I match it will be exciting to educate them about what we are all about, and prove that we are just as good if not better than our allopathic counterparts. No matter what, when applying for residency don't sell yourself short...apply everywhere and anywhere you want no matter how "good" there program is. If you get the interview then great...you have nothing to lose and it is good to show them that there are very strong DO applicants out there. Once it's all said and done you are a physician and the initials after your name don't reflect the type of physician you choose to become. Programs who are up to the 21st century realize this and appreciate our talents. It's up to you to be the best you can be, and people will recognize it no matter what your title your medical degree displays.

Good luck all!

Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine
Class of 2006 😎



Careofme said:
I think the answer to your question is largely based on two important factors: location and specialty.

From my travels as a fourth year over the past few months I have noticed that striking differences in the perceptions of DO's exist depending on where I was geographically. It seems that the midwest is very friendly and open, however, I wish the same could be said about certain parts of the northeast such as Boston. Unfortunately, a lot of the PDs at big Boston programs are still pretty old skewl and not as accepting to DO's. I realize there will be those that write in saying the opposite, however, from recently completing an elective in neurology at a very well respected, ivy, 'H'ard core program I can tell you that DO discrimination does still exist among administrators. For the most part I think that the younger and up-and-coming generation of physicans will be much more accepting and any discriminiation will very almost non-existant in the future.

Another example is of a classmate of mine who applied several months ago to do an elective at a smaller, southern low-tier program only to get a rejection flat out stating that the reason she was rejected was because she was a DO student. I don't even know if this is legal but just further illustrates the point that discrimination is still out there there but it appears to be sparse.
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ZspartanDO said:
Location if definitely important. I'm an MS4. Here's my input...I am a competetive applicant (as far as boards, grades, experience, etc.) and applied for internal medicine MD and DO. I received some interviews at competetive places, but some are notoriously known to not interview DO's...especially the old-school "prestigious" places. My philosophy is why want them if the don't want you. Just realize that it's out there. There are some places that will never interview a D.O., but you'll never know unless you apply. As far as the actual interviews; I had over 10 allopathic interviews and only one was "pressured"...I had to justify my clinical years at community hospitals vs. big places. As I said this was only one place. most were very good and it didn't even come up. It's also region specific...in midwest no big deal b/c they're exposed to it more...in Cali I had a resident ask me what a D.O. was-it was then that I realized I wasn't at the most osteopathically-attuned program. He was more interested than negative about it.

My feeling is that I am proud to be a D.O. and feel we are just as qualified to practice evidence-based medicine in the U.S., and even more qualified to practice preventive medicine (if chosen to be applied in our philosophy). Personally, I am considering ranking a program as #1 for residency which has no D.O.'s in it. I think if I match it will be exciting to educate them about what we are all about, and prove that we are just as good if not better than our allopathic counterparts. No matter what, when applying for residency don't sell yourself short...apply everywhere and anywhere you want no matter how "good" there program is. If you get the interview then great...you have nothing to lose and it is good to show them that there are very strong DO applicants out there. Once it's all said and done you are a physician and the initials after your name don't reflect the type of physician you choose to become. Programs who are up to the 21st century realize this and appreciate our talents. It's up to you to be the best you can be, and people will recognize it no matter what your title your medical degree displays.

Good luck all!

Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine
Class of 2006 😎
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Exactly!!
 
ZspartanDO said:
My philosophy is why want them if the don't want you.
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i love that. it's like asking why would you want a hot chick (or dude) if they don't want you? well, um, because they're extremely attractive with a great personality and they're probably good in. . . .

why would you want to go to a highly-respected "prestigious" academic allopathic program? because you'd get a great education, and it would likely mold you into a very competent physician. not to imply that this cannot happen at other programs. but of course there are good reasons for wanting the "best".

anyway, is DO discrimination overblown? maybe, maybe not. i'd compare it to a legal education. there's something like 200 law schools in the nation, but only 50 or so are considered "top" schools, and of those 50, anywhere from 3-10 are considered "elite". some firms will only hire new graduates from the top 50, top 10, or top 3 schools. so, for that first job, law grads. from the less highly-ranked schools may be at a disadvantage. however, after they've proven themselves in practice, grads. from these schools have no problem working anywhere. a good friend's father attended a law school that no longer even exists, and today he is the premiere criminal defense attorney in a large midwestern city.

the analogy is that DOs may have difficulty landing the top allo. residency spots. the solution is to make yourself an all-star at whatever program you're in, and then prove your worth in practice. it's then that you can go anywhere. you'll find DO PM&R docs at Harvard, and DO neurosurgeons at Cornell. if you're good, you're good; the letters after your name fade away.
 
Man you guys this kind of thread should not even be needed.

Just do the best you can and remember to be on your best behaviour. You do have to prove yourself (YES YOU DO). Do well on your USMLES, do well on rotations and make the right connections and you will be fine.

If you want to match in Allo residency, its possible. but you must remember, Like ZspartanDO said " if they don't want you.. why would you want them".

Yale accept DO's, so do most mid-tier med school programs (mostly in east-mid-US). If you want to go to Harvard and UofWashington you should go allo.

Fin.
 
There are many good points made here. I have to agree that MD and DO's are not equal based on the education and experience. Unfortunately the discrimination exists. I don't know why there is a discord perhaps a jealousy issue on MDs parts since most patients often adore their DO's (since a holistic approach require more patient interaction) or a true feeling of dislike. Regardless both will eventually be working side by side.
 
Diane L. Evans said:
There are many good points made here. I have to agree that MD and DO's are not equal based on the education and experience. Unfortunately the discrimination exists. I don't know why there is a discord perhaps a jealousy issue on MDs parts since most patients often adore their DO's (since a holistic approach require more patient interaction) or a true feeling of dislike. Regardless both will eventually be working side by side.
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Here is my take on this topic:

Unfortunately, discrimination exists in this world no matter what career you choose to pursue. People can discriminate you base on religion, sex, race, weight, and yes, title behind your name.

This is no different than what we minorities have to face every day in the U.S.. We always have to work harder just to prove we are just is good and smart compared to our anglo couter parts.

The only way to combat discrimination is to shatter their preconceived biases about you. In this case, for us DO's is to study harder in school and work harder and be more prepared during our rotations and residencies than our MD counter parts.

Also, keep in mind that getting an MD does not mean you will have an easier time getting into a competitive specialty, like derm or rad. You would still have to kick ass on the board exams and have an awsome class ranking to be considered so no matter what, you have to be competitive.

The bottom line is people will always find something to discriminate against you, and the only thing you can do is to work hard and prove them wrong.

TCOM Class of 2010
 
to borrow from Stephen Colbert
Here is all you need to know
Medicare, Blue Cross, Anthem whatever insurance you can think of. Pays MDs the same amount for whatever (sx, office visit) as they do DOs.

Percentage wise many more students go into primary care in osteopathic schools than allopathic schools.

Which means if you are going into a specialty and live in the midwest you will have a killer referral base which is what it's all about anymore, the almighty referral.

So don't worry about it. You can look at your W-2 and laugh all the way to the bank about D.O. discrimination.
 
H0mersimps0n said:
The biggest place I've seen discrimination is at A-hole medical schools like University of Maryland that only allow visiting students in on elective rotations if they come from ACGME Accredited schools. By definition osteopathic schools can not obtain this Accreditation and therefore can not rotate there.

Our AOA rep told us there were some other schools that did that and the AOA sucessfully sued them, aparently the UMD giant is too big to tackle.

Otherwise not too bad if you don't mind some major badgering during allo residency interviews and such... and unless you don't care about getting a quality education you'll probably be applying to at least a few allo residency programs because good osteo programs are few and far between these days. Be prepped for the "pressure interviews" because they will happen (not always but definitely will)...

$.02
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You probably did, but I am wondering if you actually called the person in charge of setting up visiting rotations at U MD.. The reason I ask is that many allopathic schools state on their website that they will only accept visiting students from AGME accredited schools , but when I called several they said "no problem" about rotating there.

Carpe
 
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