DO discrimination

[BenzylAcetate]

There's a new post on Fizzy's blog (cartoon guide to becoming a doctor). Not sure if I am supposed to post links, but I'll take that risk.

http://doccartoon.blogspot.com/2012/06/do-discrimination.html

It's just the perspective from one practicing physician in one specific field, but I think it's worthwhile to see what actual practicing physicians think.

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[Wolverines83]

There's a new post on Fizzy's blog (cartoon guide to becoming a doctor). Not sure if I am supposed to post links, but I'll take that risk.

http://doccartoon.blogspot.com/2012/06/do-discrimination.html

It's just the perspective from one practicing physician in one specific field, but I think it's worthwhile to see what actual practicing physicians think.

That seems like one of the more honest blogs/posts/whatever I've read. I appreciate the candor. Seems like a standup guy.

 

[Darthberghen]

Decent post actually, but I question the timing (application season) and motivation (bloggers love controversy otherwise nobody reads them). The "some of my best friends are..." sounds familiar. Looks like it's a good opportunity for the Caribbeans to brag about the superiority of their MDs on that webpage. You all will have a job, they probably won't. Don't waste your time commenting on it. No point wrestling with pigs.

 

[HalfListic]

Haha, yet another well written, passive aggressive attempt to marginalize osteopathic medicine.

Here's the real deal...The VAST majority of people, physician or not, do not care if MD or DO. The only place where this is at all an issue is in getting certain residencies and this too is waning, and that's not what the article wrote about so I will not get into that. Patients do not care about which degree. Most still won't know about DOs really, but if they care enough to ask, (again highly unlikely, contrary to the blog post) when they hear that it's the same as MD in training but with an additional emphasis on patient centered care, do you really think they'll care. From experience, no, they won't. And to go a step further, my father has been CEO of an orthopedic surgery group, and when they interview DO vs MD, does he take that into account?Not even a little.

And to address the idea that everyone thinks OMM is laughable, again, that is wrong. The early beginnings of osteopathic medicine was riddled with things we would all scoff at, but what does that mean today? Do we laugh at doctors today because of the history of blood letting, electric-stimulation, or balancing humors? Of course not! The DOs represent the idea that if a practice or school of thought becomes stagnant or deviant, then you should question it.

Today, MDs and DOs are equals in practice (in the US). Soon, this will be true internationally. These types of articles, and their timing, are more than suspect. They are a blatant trolling on the up and coming generation. But that's ok, its a good way to test if people will believe a bloggers opinion, or do their own research and form an educated opinion.

 

[donkeykong1]

the author of that post comes off as being quite naive

 

[Dharma]

The passive aggressive, desperate attention seeking blog is filled with anecdotes and it's not even written well either. "My mom won't even see a D.O." Seriously? Who cares... keep on beating on that dead horse bud, amongst other things...

 

[Wolverines83]

Wow, I just did not get the same impression you folks got.

I thought it was pretty honest and that comment about his mother seemed to actually be taking a shot at his mother for being naive.

No wonder there are so many arguments online when we all seem to have taken his post completely differently!

 

[Dharma]

He's a PM&R guy and he claims that DO discrimination is rampant. If that's the case, then why do top PM&R programs like Kessler and Baylor have their fair share of DO residents?

http://njms.umdnj.edu/departments/physical_medicine___rehabilitation/residency/residents1.cfm

http://www.bcm.edu/pmr/education/currentresidents

 

[Dharma]

Wow, I just did not get the same impression you folks got.

I thought it was pretty honest and that comment about his mother seemed to actually be taking a shot at his mother for being naive.

No wonder there are so many arguments online when we all seem to have taken his post completely differently!

I thought it was passive aggressive, not very informative nor witty, and his writing is decent at best. He did a good job at grabbing some attention though, which I'm assuming is his intention. Check out his first comment under the blog when another mentioned the lack of comments thus far:

Maybe everyone is so enraged that they require time to gather their thoughts

The guy was looking to stir the pot from the get-go without anything new to offer.

 

[dsoz]

The guy was looking to stir the pot from the get-go without anything new to offer.

Nothing to add, except Fizzy is a gal, not a guy.

That blog is usually one of my regular morning reads. A lot of the cartoons are great.

dsoz

 

[Darthberghen]

Yeah, the intent was clear. Definitely passive aggressive. Cartoonist needs attention.

 

[cartoondoc]

Hi there. I'm the one who wrote the post.

I just wanted to reiterate that, as I said in the post, I have the utmost respect for DOs. Once again, some of the most fantastic doctors I know are DOs. If I were trying to be passive aggressive or trolling or just trying to get comments, I wouldn't have said that. I would have said, "All DOs sUck and are dumb!!1!!"

I'm not sure what people are referring to with the "timing" of the post... is this some special time? I honestly don't know what that means. I actually purposely posted this on a Friday because Friday posts get *less* comments/attention and I wasn't looking for a big fight.

I guess the reason I wrote the post is that even though I'm not a DO, I have personally witnessed a lot of DO discrimination and I don't like it. You can't deny that it exists. I saw it in my own residency program (despite the stats someone mentioned, I guarantee a lot of programs discriminate) and I heard it from laypeople who make negative comments about DOs. Since my own field (PM&R) contains a lot of DOs and we are also misunderstood in a similar way, I take personal offense at DO discrimination.

That was what I was trying to express in my post. I think the comments have actually been very civil and respectful so far, and I'm very pleased. I wasn't looking for a fight and I'm not going to participate in one.

 

[SoulinNeed]

Hi there. I'm the one who wrote the post.

I just wanted to reiterate that, as I said in the post, I have the utmost respect for DOs. Once again, some of the most fantastic doctors I know are DOs. If I were trying to be passive aggressive or trolling or just trying to get comments, I wouldn't have said that. I would have said, "All DOs sUck and are dumb!!1!!"

I'm not sure what people are referring to with the "timing" of the post... is this some special time? I honestly don't know what that means. I actually purposely posted this on a Friday because Friday posts get *less* comments/attention and I wasn't looking for a big fight.

I guess the reason I wrote the post is that even though I'm not a DO, I have personally witnessed a lot of DO discrimination and I don't like it. You can't deny that it exists. I saw it in my own residency program (despite the stats someone mentioned, I guarantee a lot of programs discriminate) and I heard it from laypeople who make negative comments about DOs. Since my own field (PM&R) contains a lot of DOs and we are also misunderstood in a similar way, I take personal offense at DO discrimination.

That was what I was trying to express in my post. I think the comments have actually been very civil and respectful so far, and I'm very pleased. I wasn't looking for a fight and I'm not going to participate in one.

No one denies that there is some DO discrimination out there, but depending on the field and the geographic region, it's pretty reduced in certain areas. Things are also getting better every year as more and more in roads are made. The idea that it is "rampant" though just leaves one to scratch their head, especially when your field is PM&R which has a large representation of DO's, even at the top programs.

 

[jcpenny]

sounds like another passive-aggressive closet anti-DO. She's probably mad yall taking all her jerbs at the top PM&R places? Weak blog

 

[Postal]

Decent post that just showcases one person's opinion. Don't be so sensitive, people

 

[thecgrblue]

I guess the reason I wrote the post is that even though I'm not a DO, I have personally witnessed a lot of DO discrimination and I don't like it. You can't deny that it exists. I saw it in my own residency program (despite the stats someone mentioned, I guarantee a lot of programs discriminate) and I heard it from laypeople who make negative comments about DOs. Since my own field (PM&R) contains a lot of DOs and we are also misunderstood in a similar way, I take personal offense at DO discrimination.

That was what I was trying to express in my post. I think the comments have actually been very civil and respectful so far, and I'm very pleased. I wasn't looking for a fight and I'm not going to participate in one.

I got exactly what you meant. Loved the post.

I got the very clear message that hell would freeze over, thaw, freeze, sublimate, then freeze again before an MD school would take me. I personally see no difference in MD v. DO philosophy and will attend DO b/c that is what will allow me to become a physician.

 

[Dharma]

Hi there. I'm the one who wrote the post.

I just wanted to reiterate that, as I said in the post, I have the utmost respect for DOs. Once again, some of the most fantastic doctors I know are DOs. If I were trying to be passive aggressive or trolling or just trying to get comments, I wouldn't have said that. I would have said, "All DOs sUck and are dumb!!1!!"

I'm not sure what people are referring to with the "timing" of the post... is this some special time? I honestly don't know what that means. I actually purposely posted this on a Friday because Friday posts get *less* comments/attention and I wasn't looking for a big fight.

I guess the reason I wrote the post is that even though I'm not a DO, I have personally witnessed a lot of DO discrimination and I don't like it. You can't deny that it exists. I saw it in my own residency program (despite the stats someone mentioned, I guarantee a lot of programs discriminate) and I heard it from laypeople who make negative comments about DOs. Since my own field (PM&R) contains a lot of DOs and we are also misunderstood in a similar way, I take personal offense at DO discrimination.

That was what I was trying to express in my post. I think the comments have actually been very civil and respectful so far, and I'm very pleased. I wasn't looking for a fight and I'm not going to participate in one.

Props for stepping up and representing yourself. Respect. I still think the piece is all over the place and lacks congruity, but you know what they say about opinions.

I understand the piece is your own personal perspective and what-not. That's cool. There is absolutely nothing new to what you are saying though; it's been rehashed and plated every possible way ad naseum and anyone with half a clue knows that some bias exists out there. I'm a bit curious as to what really motivated you to write this piece, besides mom's degree requirements and the really nice girl who helps out with races getting shafted come ranking time. Maybe you were just rambling, who knows.

Here's my beef (where your opinion attempts to work its way into the realm of fact): you title the article "DO Discrimination" and then the only other time you mention the words again, you claim "rampant" discrimination while some of the best programs in your field actually have very good DO representation. This doesn't exactly lend to the validity of your words (and sort of makes you sound full of $hit. No offense).

Anyhow, ballsy to step up and respond. Cool points for that. Maybe I'll check out your blog again sometime... maybe.

 

[peppy]

It's funny that a PM&R doc would mention DOs don't have good enough grades to get into MD school when PM&R has one of the lowest average step scores of all specialties. I am sure some people do PM&R because they didn't have a good enough Step 1 score to get into the specialty they really wanted, but of course that's not the case for everyone.

Also, in the anecdote about an attending throwing a tantrum about a DO student being ranked highly, the DO was nonetheless highly ranked, so why does that one attending's opinion matter? Sure, some attendings are jerks. That's nothing new.

 

[cartoondoc]

There are definitely similarities between the discrimination that goes on against physiatrists like myself and that against DOs. And as someone pointed out, there *are* people who go into PM&R rather than, say, orthopedic surgery because they don't have the grades for ortho. (I'm not sensitive, I know it's true. PM&R is a very easy match.) The big difference is that MDs and DOs do pretty much the same thing, whereas orthopods and physiatrists have completely different jobs and are not interchangeable.

Whether you believe there's rampant discrimination against DOs, you certainly have to admit that discrimination exists. I sometimes participate in the PM&R boards here, and whenever a pre-med asks if they should go the MD vs. DO route, the physiatrists there always say MD. Go ahead and ask if you'd like to confirm this. Do they all have a misconception of the discrimination DOs face? Maybe. But it's not so cut and dry.

I don't know why everyone is so suspicious of my "motivations" for writing the post. I was reading a Facebook post from that DO who matched at my program, and I got to thinking about how angry I still was about that situation. (It wasn't one attending, the whole program definitely discriminates against DOs.) So I wrote the post, spending about five minutes on it. It's just my personal blog, not the NY Times. To some of you, it may be old news. But not to everyone.

 

[Wolverines83]

There are definitely similarities between the discrimination that goes on against physiatrists like myself and that against DOs. And as someone pointed out, there *are* people who go into PM&R rather than, say, orthopedic surgery because they don't have the grades for ortho. (I'm not sensitive, I know it's true. PM&R is a very easy match.) The big difference is that MDs and DOs do pretty much the same thing, whereas orthopods and physiatrists have completely different jobs and are not interchangeable.

Whether you believe there's rampant discrimination against DOs, you certainly have to admit that discrimination exists. I sometimes participate in the PM&R boards here, and whenever a pre-med asks if they should go the MD vs. DO route, the physiatrists there always say MD. Go ahead and ask if you'd like to confirm this. Do they all have a misconception of the discrimination DOs face? Maybe. But it's not so cut and dry.

I don't know why everyone is so suspicious of my "motivations" for writing the post. I was reading a Facebook post from that DO who matched at my program, and I got to thinking about how angry I still was about that situation. (It wasn't one attending, the whole program definitely discriminates against DOs.) So I wrote the post, spending about five minutes on it. It's just my personal blog, not the NY Times. To some of you, it may be old news. But not to everyone.

Look, I don't understand why some people are so sensitive about this. Sometimes I think people go off the hook any time an MD says anything about DOs that does anything but state that they're exactly the same with exactly the same opportunities.

If one program director in the country has bias, then discrimination exists. I mean I disagree that it's rampant but then again, if you're at a program where it is, in fact, rampant, then that's your reality and you're not misrepresenting it. Perception is reality.

I think that the article was refreshingly honest as opposed to articles that say "Oh DO bias doesn't exist at all. You can be a neurosurgeon at Harvard." The fact is, it's still out there although we can debate the word rampant.

 

[Dharma]

Whether you believe there's rampant discrimination against DOs, you certainly have to admit that discrimination exists. I sometimes participate in the PM&R boards here, and whenever a pre-med asks if they should go the MD vs. DO route, the physiatrists there always say MD. Go ahead and ask if you'd like to confirm this. Do they all have a misconception of the discrimination DOs face? Maybe. But it's not so cut and dry.

You say this as if it is a surprise to the rest of us. I think most folks in the osteo forums would even offer similar advice. (DO on DO discrimination?). Advising an individual to go the MD route does not necessarily equate with discrimination. The discrimination is out there, no doubt (I don't think you will find one person here who would disagree) but there's no need to blow it out of proportion. You've taken a mostly pre-med/med student concern and extended the intensity seen amongst that group regarding the issue all the way up the ladder to the level of physician.

Also, being that you claim to intend to inform those whom this is not old news to

To some of you, it may be old news. But not to everyone.

you imply that you are attempting to inform impressionable students with very little understanding of the profession. It may be better to offer a bit more truth in your writing as opposed to taking a few anecdotes and passing them off as the norm. If you intend to inform, do so responsibly. It's no wonder why this naive perspective perpetually dominates within the pre-med population. If you simply intend to tell a story, let it be known, but don't make generalized claims and try to pass it off as truth when doing so.

BTW what do you have to say about the fact that top PM&R places have a good amount of DOs on board? Kessler is considered one of the top dogs in your field, easily in the top 10, and they have DOs in every residency class (I count 7 out of 28) . If discrimination is so rampant, then why is this so? Point being, choose your words wisely when you write. Whether it's a blog or the NYTs, 5 minutes or 5 days, it should not matter.

 

[justpassingthru]

It is well known - from stats and personal accounts by both MDs and DOs - that certain MD programs routinely discriminate against DOs by either throwing their apps in the trash, or ranking them lower than less-qualified MDs from mediocre MD schools. It wasn't long ago that DOs were systematically denied privileges at certain hospitals. If it hadn't been for AOA residencies, there wouldn't be any DO surgeons. Period. The prejudice is willful, ignorant and outdated - on the taxpayer's dime.

It boils down to old-boys elitism and the worst malignant trait in human nature. If they didn't have DOs to discriminate against indiscriminately, they'd do it to somebody else. I have nothing but the greatest respect for the practicing DOs out there, given the hurdles and garbage they had to go through.

As far as the old folks afraid to see a DO, blame it on the AMA and their campaign to drive the DOs out of business in the 1950s-1960s. (And as to whether DOs are "as good as" MDs, the AMA had a law passed in California forcing DOs to turn in their degrees for MD degrees. Go figure.)

Anyway, this is not a "man bites dog" story. It's old news. But I do thank the blogger for her sentiment.

TLDR: It's all about money and power.

 

[mashmetoo]

Hi there. I'm the one who wrote the post.

I guess the reason I wrote the post is that even though I'm not a DO, I have personally witnessed a lot of DO discrimination and I don't like it. You can't deny that it exists. I saw it in my own residency program (despite the stats someone mentioned, I guarantee a lot of programs discriminate) and I heard it from laypeople who make negative comments about DOs. Since my own field (PM&R) contains a lot of DOs and we are also misunderstood in a similar way, I take personal offense at DO discrimination.

That was what I was trying to express in my post. I think the comments have actually been very civil and respectful so far, and I'm very pleased. I wasn't looking for a fight and I'm not going to participate in one.

I understand that you are trying to say that DO discrimination exists, but at the same time, I wonder.. So what? The vast vast majority of DOs / DOs in training know of this already - that out there somewhere, in some hospital, there's bound to be a MD or IMG program director from back in the day that has a thing against DOs, or won't take DOs.

Does this change anything for anybody? Does the existence of DO discrimination - whether imagined or really present, change anything for current DO students/ DO doctors/ DO applicants? Or do we keep going about our business as usual? Are DOs going to stop practicing medicine because some PMR residency doesn't accept DOs? Should pre-meds stop applying to DO schools because out there somewhere, someday, a MD residency will throw their hopeful application into the trash?

If you were a minority, perhaps an Asian American, or an African American, or a gay male or lesbian female, chances are, you are going to get discriminated against at one point in your life by the majority/ majority ethnicity. Much in the same way that DOs get "discriminated" against by MDs. In exactly the same way, does that change anything for anyone? Should the Asian American or the African American stop being themselves because this discrimination exists out there, somewhere? Or should the minority carry on their business as usual?

So really, at the end of the day, so what??

As an aside, I wonder if MDs ever get asked if they are a Caribbean MD, or a MBBS? I ask because I keep getting presented to "MDs", then after a little further digging, I find out that they are from the Caribbean, or are actually MBBS from India/Ireland that have no qualms about calling themselves "MD". I have nothing against IMGs, heck, my personal physician of over a decade is a MBBS, and I only found out recently. Even at my school, there's all these Indian "MDs" with thick accents that I can't figure out how it is that after getting their "MD" in a US school, their accents can still be so stressed. Then I did a little digging, and they invariably turned out to be MBBS graduates.

Honestly, whenever I see the title "MD", the first thing that comes to my mind is to find out whether they are an actual MD from a North American school, or a Caribbean or International locale. That's simply my reality.

I ask you this because I've read/heard lots of things on "DO discrimination", so I wonder with all these foreign schools/brands competing for the US MD brand, do you ever feel like the value of the "MD" brand is deceasing? - There's a lot of "imitation MDs" out there.

 

[donkeykong1]

I understand that you are trying to say that DO discrimination exists, but at the same time, I wonder.. So what? The vast vast majority of DOs / DOs in training know of this already - that out there somewhere, in some hospital, there's bound to be a MD or IMG program director from back in the day that has a thing against DOs, or won't take DOs.

Does this change anything for anybody? Does the existence of DO discrimination - whether imagined or really present, change anything for current DO students/ DO doctors/ DO applicants? Or do we keep going about our business as usual? Are DOs going to stop practicing medicine because some PMR residency doesn't accept DOs? Should pre-meds stop applying to DO schools because out there somewhere, someday, a MD residency will throw their hopeful application into the trash?

If you were a minority, perhaps an Asian American, or an African American, or a gay male or lesbian female, chances are, you are going to get discriminated against at one point in your life by the majority/ majority ethnicity. Much in the same way that DOs get "discriminated" against by MDs. In exactly the same way, does that change anything for anyone? Should the Asian American or the African American stop being themselves because this discrimination exists out there, somewhere? Or should the minority carry on their business as usual?

So really, at the end of the day, so what??

As an aside, I wonder if MDs ever get asked if they are a Caribbean MD, or a MBBS? I ask because I keep getting presented to "MDs", then after a little further digging, I find out that they are from the Caribbean, or are actually MBBS from India/Ireland that have no qualms about calling themselves "MD". I have nothing against IMGs, heck, my personal physician of over a decade is a MBBS, and I only found out recently. Even at my school, there's all these Indian "MDs" with thick accents that I can't figure out how it is that after getting their "MD" in a US school, their accents can still be so stressed. Then I did a little digging, and they invariably turned out to be MBBS graduates.

Honestly, whenever I see the title "MD", the first thing that comes to my mind is to find out whether they are an actual MD from a North American school, or a Caribbean or International locale. That's simply my reality.

I ask you this because I've read/heard lots of things on "DO discrimination", so I wonder with all these foreign schools/brands competing for the US MD brand, do you ever feel like the value of the "MD" brand is deceasing? - There's a lot of "imitation MDs" out there.

i think you're getting a little carried away there with that statement.

 

[mashmetoo]

i think you're getting a little carried away there with that statement.

Are we really going to argue about whether or not minority ethnicity, sexual preference ever get discriminated against by the majority?...

 

[SpecterGT260]

The passive aggressive, desperate attention seeking blog is filled with anecdotes and it's not even written well either. "My mom won't even see a D.O." Seriously? Who cares... keep on beating on that dead horse bud, amongst other things...

Did you even read it?

 

[Dharma]

Did you even read it?

 

[pathologyDO]

In exactly the same way, does that change anything for anyone? Should the Asian American or the African American stop being themselves because this discrimination exists out there, somewhere? Or should the minority carry on their business as usual?

So really, at the end of the day, so what??

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You failed to see the difference between being a D.O. and a minority ethnic group apparently, which is really clear cut. One chooses to be a D.O.; But you cannot choose what ethnicity you're born as. Trying to draw parallels on these two circumstances is fundamentally flawed in an infinite amount of aspects. How many times were medical school graduates hung by their peers because they were licensed as D.O. physicians? What you have written here is a huge no no. It is morally incorrect and just down-right inhumane for you to compare the terrible hardships which racial/ethnic minorities have endured in America with the petty discrimination that a D.O. may or may not have came across sometime in his/her career.

*shakes head*

 

[SpecterGT260]

Fascinating..... what a coherent and well structured response.

The blog was a reflection on personal experiences with people discriminating against DOs... if you want to close your eyes and make believe it isn't true by citing residency positions which does literally nothing to contradict the original statement that is your business but what it boils down to is that the blog was entirely accurate because it was only attempting to address personal anecdote to begin with. Don't attack someone who is standing up for you just because you dont want to accept the reality that caused this individual to respond in the first place :sly:

 

[SpecterGT260]

It is well known - from stats and personal accounts by both MDs and DOs - that certain MD programs routinely discriminate against DOs by either throwing their apps in the trash, or ranking them lower than less-qualified MDs from mediocre MD schools. It wasn't long ago that DOs were systematically denied privileges at certain hospitals. If it hadn't been for AOA residencies, there wouldn't be any DO surgeons. Period. The prejudice is willful, ignorant and outdated - on the taxpayer's dime.

It boils down to old-boys elitism and the worst malignant trait in human nature. If they didn't have DOs to discriminate against indiscriminately, they'd do it to somebody else. I have nothing but the greatest respect for the practicing DOs out there, given the hurdles and garbage they had to go through.

As far as the old folks afraid to see a DO, blame it on the AMA and their campaign to drive the DOs out of business in the 1950s-1960s. (And as to whether DOs are "as good as" MDs, the AMA had a law passed in California forcing DOs to turn in their degrees for MD degrees. Go figure.)

Anyway, this is not a "man bites dog" story. It's old news. But I do thank the blogger for her sentiment.

TLDR: It's all about money and power.

No! All programs actually prefer DOs!!!!! Right Dharma?

Edit.... actually I read through more and you arent being as ridiculous as I thought. Guess I kinda jumped the gun here. My bad

 

[mashmetoo]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You failed to see the difference between being a D.O. and a minority ethnic group apparently, which is really clear cut. One chooses to be a D.O.; But you cannot choose what ethnicity you're born as. Trying to draw parallels on these two circumstances is fundamentally flawed in an infinite amount of aspects. How many times were medical school graduates hung by their peers because they were licensed as D.O. physicians? What you have written here is a huge no no. It is morally incorrect and just down-right inhumane for you to compare the terrible hardships which racial/ethnic minorities have endured in America with the petty discrimination that a D.O. may or may not have came across sometime in his/her career.

*shakes head*

Well, being a minority myself, I disagree with your assessment. To me, it's all the same - discrimination of the minority by the majority, the parallels are clear.

In fact, we've had one of the original DOs who overturned the law that required DOs to become MDs in California talk at my school - he says that they used the same African American lawyer that was present in the civil rights movement in the same era - because to that lawyer, DO discrimination was exactly the same as racial discrimination against African Americans (which was why he got involved at all) - so I'm not pulling this out of my butt when I say this.

Also, this isn't the 1700s where people still get hanged - you can still get discriminated against without any physical violence.

 

[donkeykong1]

Are we really going to argue about whether or not minority ethnicity, sexual preference ever get discriminated against by the majority?...

lol your comparison is a hyperbole to say the least. i think you're subscribing to the AOA old guard philosophy of "separate but equal." we're not a minority. we're physicians earning the same salary, getting the same posts..... a physician is defined by their training not his/her initials or 200 year old philosophy.

 

[mashmetoo]

lol your comparison is a hyperbole to say the least.

Hyperbole is something like "I have been to 'Nam and Iraq.. but the Vancouver riots was a thousand times worse than the two combined!"

This statement:
"If you were a minority, perhaps an Asian American, or an African American, or a gay male or lesbian female, chances are, you are going to get discriminated against at one point in your life by the majority/ majority ethnicity."
is an observation I've made over many years, and unfortunately also experienced.

So, if you are not a minority in some kind of group, I politely ask you to refrain from judgement. If you are a minority of some kind, and have not received any kind of discrimination of any kind whatsoever in your life, I'm happy for you, and would also like to hear about your experiences

 

[mashmetoo]

lol your comparison is a hyperbole to say the least. i think you're subscribing to the AOA old guard philosophy of "separate but equal." we're not a minority. we're physicians earning the same salary, getting the same posts..... a physician is defined by their training not his/her initials or 200 year old philosophy.

I do consider the "separate and equal" to be the right motto, by "minority", I was referring to the fact that DOs - in terms of hard numbers, are dwarfed by the number of MDs in the US. So in that sense, there'll always be more MDs than DOs, and hence, DOs make up the "minority".

 

[user3]

Ranking the DO's lower in the MD residencies is not discrimination. The ACGME programs have an obligation to take their own (US MD), over guests that are in the match (DO, IMG, etc.). This will go on as long as DOs remain independent applicants.

 

[Dharma]

Fascinating..... what a coherent and well structured response.

The blog was a reflection on personal experiences with people discriminating against DOs... if you want to close your eyes and make believe it isn't true by citing residency positions which does literally nothing to contradict the original statement that is your business but what it boils down to is that the blog was entirely accurate because it was only attempting to address personal anecdote to begin with. Don't attack someone who is standing up for you just because you dont want to accept the reality that caused this individual to respond in the first place :sly:

Your initial comment received the response it deserved.

No one here has claimed that discrimination does not exist however I just happen to take issue with her choice of words and her manner of delivery. Citing residency positions just shows that "rampant" is certainly not the case, although in her article she says it to be so, not just through her eyes, but in general. The links I posted were certainly not meant to show any DO preference or complete absence of discrimination, that's for sure.

Regardless, I have every right to express my opinion on the piece and offer my own perspective, or even critique the bejesus out of it, just as you can come here and disagree with me. It's my opinion and that alone. No big deal. But dude, don't tell me I can or can't express my opinion. No one is attacking her; I'm sure she can handle a bit of criticism and disagreement if she's gotten this far.

This all said, I think it's a stretch saying this piece was about standing up for DO's.

 

[Dharma]

No! All programs actually prefer DOs!!!!! Right Dharma?

Who ever said that programs prefer DOs? I know we're fighting a bit of uphill battle. No one is denying this. Where are you getting this $hit from?

 

[donkeykong1]

Hyperbole is something like "I have been to 'Nam and Iraq.. but the Vancouver riots was a thousand times worse than the two combined!"

This statement:
"If you were a minority, perhaps an Asian American, or an African American, or a gay male or lesbian female, chances are, you are going to get discriminated against at one point in your life by the majority/ majority ethnicity."
is an observation I've made over many years, and unfortunately also experienced.

So, if you are not a minority in some kind of group, I politely ask you to refrain from judgement. If you are a minority of some kind, and have not received any kind of discrimination of any kind whatsoever in your life, I'm happy for you, and would also like to hear about your experiences

i think you are missing my point. you are "comparing" DOs who are physicians no less, yet maintain a degree that is less common hence in the minority when compared to the MD, TO discrimination against race, sexual orientation...that's just wrong in my opinion, sorry.

as an aside: i don't think being in the "minority," numbers wise, is the main reason aa's, lgbt, or other groups get discriminated against. this prejudice historically stems from unfortunate biases in the eyes of ignorant people whether its here in the US or elsewhere.

 

[Whiskeypunch]

I don't get why people are mad. The post seemed even handed.

 

[Dharma]

I don't get why people are mad. The post seemed even handed.

I don't think anyone is mad, but rather in disagreement. Criticism does not necessarily entail anger or emotion, nor should it.

 

[HalfListic]

I think this thread has deteriorated a bit.

The main point is that there was a blog post shared. If you read it critically, I think the majority of people will find that the suggested level of "DO" discrimination is overstated. I believe it is even meant to be so, but that is just an opinion.

The facts are these: MDs and DOs practice the same medicine. There used to be a big rift, partly because DO education was inferior to MD. Now, it's at the same level and a vast majority of doctors in the workforce today hold no grudge against each other. Yes, there is an old generation that just needs to die off. Yes, there are few MDs who feel superior to DOs and vice versa.

It is also true that more MDs get into competitive specialties and on a grand scale, MDs are still favored for these competitive spots. No one really ever argues this. But, to write a blog post that is greatly exaggerated and based on anecdote, especially as a physician, is irresponsible. The fact that you write that you personally like DOs is just like when people joke and say, that mans an idiot, bless his heart. The blog post was passive aggressive, though the author doesn't understand what that means. (hence his comment on this thread stating that if he were being passive aggressive he would just say that DOs suck. Thats not passive aggressive, it's just an insult)

Bottom line, most DOs go into primary care. But, you can't name a specialty that a DO hasn't held. So really, the point is mute...the argument is outdated...we can move on! The best way to support your fellow DO or MD is to treat each other as equals. We have standardized tests if you want to have a sword fight. But we all know, it takes more than grades to be a good physician. So, lets all just be good physicians and future doc's. Let's help define the future of medicine. It's is becoming more patient centered every year and both MD and DO are to thank.

Can't we all just...get along?

 

[SpecterGT260]

Who ever said that programs prefer DOs? I know we're fighting a bit of uphill battle. No one is denying this. Where are you getting this $hit from?

My edit preceded this comment by a solid half hour..... now you're just being a doucher. The comment was sarcasm surrounding the pre osteo nonsense that often DOES deny any uphill battle at all. Therefore (and here you need to have a working understanding of hyperbole) saying all programs prefer DO was meant only to highlight the already nonsensical argument that there is not a disadvantage

 

[HalfListic]

Specter, if you need to PM Dharma, do it. Dharma please do the same...this bickering is cheapening the discussion

 

[SoulinNeed]

Specter, for someone who is an MD student, you post A LOT on the osteo boards here. BTW, can you give me an example of the people who deny there isn't some discrimination against DO's out there? Most of the people here I've seen acknowledge that there is some, but that it's dwindling, and that there is very little in most specialties, especially PM&R.

 

[se20001984]

Discrimination for rez programs are not important
..the same is felt by a harvard md vs state school md

BUT

Discrimination of a DO by patients is

Im not a working DO
so i cannot chime in

but would like input

 

[se20001984]

I also love how this is posted in PRE med
Forum

Versus the MED forum or rez

 

[Dharma]

My edit preceded this comment by a solid half hour..... now you're just being a doucher. The comment was sarcasm surrounding the pre osteo nonsense that often DOES deny any uphill battle at all. Therefore (and here you need to have a working understanding of hyperbole) saying all programs prefer DO was meant only to highlight the already nonsensical argument that there is not a disadvantage

My bad holmes. I assumed your edit was in response to the individual you quoted. I do appreciate your use of the often underutilized variation of douche though.

 

[se20001984]

I also wonder...

 

[SpecterGT260]

My bad holmes. I assumed your edit was in response to the individual you quoted. I do appreciate your use of the often underutilized variation of douche though.

I got a few others I keep on standby should the need arise. Lol

 

[Mehd School]

Over and over again.

Yet, I never read anything about sexual discrimination. My boss gets turned down as a care provider on an almost weekly basis, just because she's a she.

She went to freaking Harvard.