DO EM Residencies, The BEST?

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tjmDO

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Please help me decide on the best Osteopathic EM residency. And does it really matter where you train? I mean should I have to go to an MD residency to be considered a good physician.

Thanks

tjmdo MS-II
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You are going to get alot of different answers. I'm only just getting started so i can't tell you from my experiences but the best advice ive heard on this board so far, is try to get into a residency where you feel the most comfortable and that meets YOUR needs not the expectation of everyone else. The same goes for med school, or for that matter anything else you try to do in life.
 
This has been rehashed quite a bit. I am a DO in an MD residency. We have DO residents from the local DO residency that come to our conferences intermittantly, and personally I believe that attests to the poor quality of teaching in the DO residency.
Personally, the DO residencies lack the structure, academics, pathology, and dedicated faculty that MD residencies in EM have.
ACGME residencies are FAR more structured than AOA residencies and it shows once you spend time in both environments.
I believe the residents that are in both programs are of equal intelligence, it is just that most MD residencies TEACH and OFFER more.
My 2 cents.
Go to www.saem.org for more info
 
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In response to the above post, I just wanted to say a few things. There are a few DO EM residencies that do have a poor record, but to be able to say that DO residencies lack the structure, academics, and faculty is pressing it a little too far. I am a 4th year going into EM, and interviewed and rotated at a few DO and MD programs. I ended up choosing a DO residency for a number of reasons. The main one is the level of teaching. The MD spots that I interviewed and rotated at all had a couple of attendings (say one or two per 20 beds, not exact but close), and a number of residents (3-6 usually)all in one shift. The majority of the DO spots that I looked at had ONE resident per shift, and the same number of attendings. So not only do you get to see more, but you get to DO a ton more. From the patient logs that I have seen from a few of the programs, the DO programs all had a lot more procedures than the MD programs. Granted, most DO programs are not in the tertiary care centers, or in the large trauma centers, but in community hospitals, where the majority of people will end up in practice anyway. Most of the DO programs have agreements with the trauma centers (Vegas mostly) to rotate there for 2-3 months, plenty of time to get the trauma exposure that you need.


With all that being said, to answer the original question.....
Michigan has a good number of great programs. Grand Rapids, Grand Blanc-Genesys are a few of the ones that stand out in my mind. Anyone else have any input about these two programs?
 
There are obviously strong feelings here. It is a fact that if the ACGME RRC in EM would place the same standards to all AOA residencies there would be less AOA residencies.
I think Capt. Freedom was trying to answer the question honestly about programs (no naming names) without implicating the residents themselves.
The AOA is in a bind.
THey find themselves in an attempt to expand AOA EM residencies under pressure to supply DO residents with more choices. (see www.acoep.org for the residencies) With that being said, there are some locations where only a couple of residents are accepted yearly and the hospitals are small community hospitals that rely on "out sourcing" their residents to other locations for many rotations.
I have some classmates at some good Michigan residencies (those with known reputations), that were very excited about going there.
That is all I am gonna say about this touchy subject.
 
Another thing to consider is the fact that almost all the decent DO EM residencies are in states that require the traditional rotating internship. This may or may not play into your decision.
 
I did a rotation at Albert Einstein Medical Center, in Philly, PA... it is a dually accredited program. Four years. Great training. It may not be a big blockbuster name like Cincy or Denver, but their residents there are pretty darn sharp (but they better be after 4 years).

On the other hand, I knew an intern while I was a third year who went to a DO EM residency (moved, got an apartment, etc), and three monhts into her OGME-2 year, the program got shut down (not sure if it was funding or accredidation). She got left in the cold.

I've met one DO EM attending who did his training up in Michigan, he was pretty good....

But from talking to my classmates who went into DO EM residencies, they are somewhat dismayed at their education.

It is a touchy subject. If you go into the interview process with an objective mind and decide to go DO, you won't go wrong. Your education is waht you make of it.
Q, DO
 
Other than Einstein what are the other dually accredited MD/DO programs? I'm am very interested in these as I want the best of both worlds, and I very much would like to stick to my osteopathic roots (so to speak).
 
I think there is atleast one program in Michigan that is dually accredited as well, maybe more than one.

"Staying close to your osteopathic roots" sounds so cute. *sigh* ahh the goodheartedness of the M1s and M2s.

:)

Q, DO
 
The other program is at Michigan State University in Lansing, MI. I'm a 1st year resident there after completing a traditional rotating internship. We have 5 D.O.s and 5 M.D.s per class. As for the original question asked about "good" AOA EM residencies, Michigan has a large number of EM residencies. Most at DO hospitals which are located around Detroit. In the DO community you definatley should try to rotate at a hospital that you are interested in for residency. If there are other questions let me know.

doc1
 
Without a doubt the MSU residencies are great...
 
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Originally posted by Apollyon
That's why I said maybe, tough guy!
Click to expand...

Its tough girl to you, mister.

Actually when I interviewed at Geisinger last year, there were no DOs interviewing with me.

Q, DO
 
Hello Everyone,

..I'm an MS-4 at CCOM and recently matched to the MWU-CCOM em residency program. I considered various other programs in the Chicago area - Cook, Resurrection, UIC, CHrist etc before actually deciding on my school's program.

..I rotated through Cook, Resurrection and my school. You have to know what you're looking for - i wanted a good EM experience rotating through various rural, suburban and inner city ERs, a 4 year program (including the rotating internship), good didactic and practical experiences through high acquity ERs. My case was unique because i opted for the 4 year program - three in the chicago area - Cook, NW & our program. I felt as if 4 year programs provided a lot more experience than 3 year programs that made 4th year residents a lot more confident in both managing ERs and making patient care decisions. That is the kind of physician i wanted to be after residency and i know i needed that time to acomplish that. I mean no offense to residents/graduates of 3 year programs. In fact, Christ hospital has an EM program that is regarded as the best in Illinois and is a 3 year program.

..Other factors that i also looked at was job prospects after the residency - the 4th year residents already have competitive job offers from various academic and other medical centers. But i'm pretty sure it may be the same for seniors from other residency programs too. There is no difference in starting salaries between graduates from 3 year program vs 4 year programs (by the little research skills i have). In addition, i felt as if our program director is very involved in resident education which was important in my decision.Our residents routinely perform well above average in the board certification exams. The program is a solid one and I would strongly recommend the program to anyone.

..I think you really have to know what you want from any residency program before choosing it. If not, you can end up disliking the next 3-4years of residency. That is the advice i received from my peers and i think it is the best advice.

take care and good luck to all participating the allopathic match, please feel free to e-mail me if anyone has any questions about the MWU-CCOM EM program.
Ahmed (MS-4)
 
Originally posted by nadeem
Our residents routinely perform well above average in the board certification exams. The program is a solid one and I would strongly recommend the program to anyone.
Click to expand...

Just curious. Would you sit for the ABEM or ABOEM? And what are the statistics nationwide for the ABOEM?

Q, DO
 
bump
 
Does anyone have any info on the DO EM program at St Barnabas in the NY.
 
Call me ignorant, but does one have to take the USMLE in order to get a allopathic residency or will they take COMPLEX?
 
Hey baby face, the answer is "no," and it's "COMLEX."

The "C"
 
Haha, thanks C.

You know what I meant. I don't mean to diverge, but I am from Michigan and will be going to either KCOM or MSUCOM in the fall. Which one of these schools has a better reputation with PD's? I know it depends on the applicant, but I am interested in doing a EM residency in Michigan here. Any feedback?

Let me diverge for another quick second. Do most ER docs burn out after 10 or 20 years? Do most stay in until retirement? I am just afraid of doing EM, but burning out and being stuck in the job. Are there any other options?

Thanks for letting me borrow this thread for my own personal gain. :D
 
You can do a search on burnout. THe consensus opinion is that burnout is an issue for those who are not trained in EM. Those who were residency trained in EM know what they're getting into and picked EM because they liked that environment, not because they couldn't hack it somewhere else. I have worked with several docs who have been in EM >20 years and they still love it, they're just a bit more cynical about it.

As to your first question, probably your chances would be better if you stayed in Michigan for school (MSU being Allo, and KCOM being Osteo, right?) simply because it is slightly easier to get into EM as an MD, and because your letter writers are more likely to be know to other Mich EM programs, and because you are more likely to rotate at Mich EM programs. That said all of these things can be oversome easily at KCOM if you prefer it there.

The "C"
 
Wow its like a day care on this thread! You did answer my question, but I am going to add to the complexity.

When I mentioned MSU, I meant osteo. (I am on the alternate list for allo). Also, KCOM has rotation spots for years 3 & 4 in Mich.

Still go with MSU?

YF
 
It's probably a toss up then. I might still give Mich the edge but realize I don't know anything particular about Michigan, just generalizing on principle.

Casey
 
to quinnnsu, did u go to northside hospital? i am a current 3rd yr med student from lecom and am doing most of my rotations at northside hospital. i know an intern from northside who started his EM residency at tampa general in july 2003. is that you? i am also considering a ER residency....
 
Originally posted by zorro21
to quinnnsu, did u go to northside hospital? i am a current 3rd yr med student from lecom and am doing most of my rotations at northside hospital. i know an intern from northside who started his EM residency at tampa general in july 2003. is that you? i am also considering a ER residency....
Click to expand...

Nope, tis not me, that is one of my colleagues. There is also an intern from there now who is applying (he went to NSUCOM with me).

If you are strongly considering EM, you shoudl start setting up rotations as of NOW for your EM electives.

Q, DO
 
Hi Everyone! I have 2 questions.

Question 1.

I am also on the ER track but have not scheduled any DO ER rotations. But, I am scheduled for MD ER rotations. Granted I obtain good letters from descent MD spots, have good scores and rank, am I still a viable candidate in the DO match or am I a shut out.

Question 2.

I've heard dissapointing things about Tulsa Reg Med center DO ER residency. Word has it that it's a level 3 trauma center with high volume of homeless, drunks, and drug users. Codes are scarce. Does anyone know more about this program?

Any input?:confused:
 
Hi Aloha Kid,

For your answer to #1: I was in the spot you're in a couple of months ago - i had rotated at 2 MD programs before actually interviewing at a DO program in October (I had a DO EM rotation scheduled in Nov though). Anyways, for my application i was lucky to get 4 solid letters from MDs (No DOs). I was never asked why i did not have a letter from a DO so i guess it was not an issue. I was worried about it before the interview. I would definitely recommend getting a letter after working at least one shift with a DO EM physician if present at the MD institution where you rotate. That way you do not need to worry about giving any explanations during the interview. YOU might also call the program DME and ask whether they would rather have one from a DO. Regardless i think you'll still be a viable match and not be shut out.

....Unfortunately i do not know anything about the program at Tulsa Regional Medical Center, hopefully someone else on the board can help you out. Take care and good luck

Ahmed
 
Thanks Nadeem:clap:
 
Originally posted by Aloha Kid


I've heard dissapointing things about Tulsa Reg Med center DO ER residency. Word has it that it's a level 3 trauma center with high volume of homeless, drunks, and drug users. Codes are scarce. Does anyone know more about this program?

Any input?:confused:
Click to expand...



TRMC does have some issues, but things are not as bad as the rumors would have you think.

All of the hospitals in Tulsa were recently moved to level 3 trauma. Obviously, the traumas have to go somewhere, so it isn't like there're no trauma cases. They are working on re-distributing the traumas to be evenly (more or less) distributed among the 3 level 3s here.

If you'd like more info on TRMC's program, feel free to PM me. I spent my entire summer in their ED.
 
Might want to check out Genysys (SP???) they are getting dually accredated. I think that they will gain ACGME next year or something like that. Go check out their EM web page for more info.
 
Originally posted by Aloha Kid
Hi Everyone! I have 2 questions.

Question 1.

I am also on the ER track but have not scheduled any DO ER rotations. But, I am scheduled for MD ER rotations. Granted I obtain good letters from descent MD spots, have good scores and rank, am I still a viable candidate in the DO match or am I a shut out.
Click to expand...

Can't comment ont he Tulsa DO EM program, as I havent' heard anything about it...

but if you are doing rotations at the MD EM residencies, get a letter from them. Doesn't have to be a DO. When/if you apply to the dO EM programs, they wont' care if the LOR is from an MD. By this stage of the game, if you're even a remotely decent applicant, you'll be in a sweet spot to get interviews if you have a LOR from a decent EM residency.

Q, DO
 
totally agree with Quin, and I PM'd you about the Tulsa Program. Pick an MD spot you like, rotate there, work hard, get a good LOR.
 
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