Do extracurriculars really matter?

[cloverpie]

Hi, I'm currently a junior majoring in neuroscience and I'm holding down a full course load with organic chemistry, biology and physiology. I work 9-12 hours a week in a research lab and I feel that it is really eating away at my time! I had no trouble pulling a 3.6 last semester with challenging science courses but I'm looking at a 3.4 or so this semester. I study far ahead of time and get a decent amount of sleep so I'm wondering whether I just need more time with the material. Does shadowing, volunteering, research really matter at all in the process? Or is it just all about MCATs and grades, really? Am I wasting time that should be spent on schoolwork? Or will a slightly lower GPA with extracurriculars be looked upon more favorably than a high GPA with nothing but some volunteering and then more summer work?

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[p00psicleSTICK]

Hate to break it to you but it matters A LOT.

Gpa and MCAT will get you interviews but you need those ECs to stand out and have a good shot at getting in. You're a junior now so I suggest you pump up your ECs before you apply unless you want to take a year off.

 

[NapeSpikes]

If you have hard-hitting numbers, you could probably get by with the standard ECs. With the average number folks like me, ECs could help a lot.

 

[Will Ferrell]

If you have hard-hitting numbers, you could probably get by with the standard ECs. With the average number folks like me, ECs could help a lot.

what would you consider standard ecs?

 

[Depakote]

I was carrying 20+ hours a semester and studying for the MCAT and my interviewers hit me for a gap in my ECs durring those semesters.

 

[NapeSpikes]

what would you consider standard ecs?

You know, volunteer at a hospital, research lab, maybe tutoring-- for like a semester or a summer or two.

 

[Rafa]

what would you consider standard ecs?

1. Delivering a baby (twins will push you into 'above and beyond' territory)

2. Starting a small school in a foreign continent.

3. Reaching Avogadro's number in volunteer hours.

If you can do these, you'll be average.

 

[cloverpie]

I was carrying 20+ hours a semester and studying for the MCAT and my interviewers hit me for a gap in my ECs durring those semesters.

Whoa, that is insane...

 

[cloverpie]

Will EC's help weaker stats, however? My UG GPA isn't that fabulous for many reasons (3.3) so will doing the EC's actually be helpful to passing pre-secondary screenings? Also, does not having any clinical experience really hurt people?

 

[cloverpie]

1. Delivering a baby (twins will push you into 'above and beyond' territory)

2. Starting a small school in a foreign continent.

3. Reaching Avogadro's number in volunteer hours.

If you can do these, you'll be average.

LOL

 

[QuantumMechanic]

1. is the research worth it? are you a lab bitch, or are you getting to be a truly active member of the research (i.e. help with publication, do presentations of your research, etc stuff that shows a more advanced level of involvement)? there is no need to sacrifice your grades for a lab bitch job during the school year. Its fine, however, in the summer...

2. do you truly have no time? I find time to volunteer 3 hours or so a week, do some bull**** ec's, work on my research thesis, goto class and do school work (double major, both sciences), goto the gym 3 times a week, play some sports recreationally, and occasionally watch tv. Given all that I do, I still feel like I should be doing more since I know I could squeeze in more stuff (my weekends are pretty much drunken partytime, not gonna lie). I can tell you that there should be a way to devote 3 hours a week (out of the 168 hours) to volunteering in a hospital or some clinic where you can gain clinical exposure while doing community service. If you're busy you have to maximize the use of your time by doing things like that.


In short, I find that time management is critical. If you truly cannot fit everything in to make a decent gpa, then start dropping things in order of least importance. Some of my friends see sleep or exercise as the least important things. Its all about your priorities, gpa and mcat are unfortunately the first things that are used to differentiate applicants, not volunteer hours.

 

[cloverpie]

1. is the research worth it? are you a lab bitch, or are you getting to be a truly active member of the research (i.e. help with publication, do presentations of your research, etc stuff that shows a more advanced level of involvement)? there is no need to sacrifice your grades for a lab bitch job during the school year. Its fine, however, in the summer...

2. do you truly have no time? I find time to volunteer 3 hours or so a week, do some bull**** ec's, work on my research thesis, goto class and do school work (double major, both sciences), goto the gym 3 times a week, play some sports recreationally, and occasionally watch tv. Given all that I do, I still feel like I should be doing more since I know I could squeeze in more stuff (my weekends are pretty much drunken partytime, not gonna lie). I can tell you that there should be a way to devote 3 hours a week (out of the 168 hours) to volunteering in a hospital or some clinic where you can gain clinical exposure while doing community service. If you're busy you have to maximize the use of your time by doing things like that.


In short, I find that time management is critical. If you truly cannot fit everything in to make a decent gpa, then start dropping things in order of least importance. Some of my friends see sleep or exercise as the least important things. Its all about your priorities, gpa and mcat are unfortunately the first things that are used to differentiate applicants, not volunteer hours.

I have my own project going in the lab and it'll be used for a proposal for grant money from JDRF. I guess my time management does blow in a big way so maybe this forum should be re-titled "How to be pre-med, a.k.a. how to do it all and still look good in the process."

 

[Will Ferrell]

Will EC's help weaker stats, however? My UG GPA isn't that fabulous for many reasons (3.3) so will doing the EC's actually be helpful to passing pre-secondary screenings? Also, does not having any clinical experience really hurt people?

no clinical experience will auto-reject an application (unless you're applying MD/PhD with tons of research experience).

 

[QuantumMechanic]

I have my own project going in the lab and it'll be used for a proposal for grant money from JDRF. I guess my time management does blow in a big way so maybe this forum should be re-titled "How to be pre-med, a.k.a. how to do it all and still look good in the process."

keep that project then...

this is gonna sound bad, but maybe the best volunteer thing would be a place where you sit at a desk in a hospital and dont do anything, so you could study, but then look good doing it on paper...won't give you too many stories for that all-important personal statement though...

 

[Rafa]

2. do you truly have no time? I find time to volunteer 3 hours or so a week, do some bull**** ec's, work on my research thesis, goto class and do school work (double major, both sciences), goto the gym 3 times a week, play some sports recreationally, and occasionally watch tv. Given all that I do, I still feel like I should be doing more since I know I could squeeze in more stuff (my weekends are pretty much drunken partytime, not gonna lie). I can tell you that there should be a way to devote 3 hours a week (out of the 168 hours) to volunteering in a hospital or some clinic where you can gain clinical exposure while doing community service. If you're busy you have to maximize the use of your time by doing things like that.

This is definitely something worth considering - particular point #2. I could be doing a lot more than I actually do, EC-wise, but I'm lacking all sorts of motivation this semester, so my 'social' ECs are pretty limited right now. You can almost always find a few spare hours in the week to volunteer/etc if you really want to. It's just about how far you're willing to go.

 

[cloverpie]

no clinical experience will auto-reject an application (unless you're applying MD/PhD with tons of research experience).

Well, fack. I had experience in both the medical industry through internships and research experience. Aren't the requirements to get into an MD/Ph.D program significantly higher, such as 3.7+ GPA and 36+ MCAT?

Should I drop the research job then and just volunteer? Honestly, research is what I want to do but I just don't have the GPA to apply to an MD/Ph.D program.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

no clinical experience will auto-reject an application (unless you're applying MD/PhD with tons of research experience).

yeah, but when you look in the msar you see the percentage of matriculants at these schools who did "medically-related work" and "community service," at some schools, these numbers are rather low and have made me wonder if no clinical is truly an "autoreject"?

 

[Rafa]

no clinical experience will auto-reject an application (unless you're applying MD/PhD with tons of research experience).

I have to disagree with this - schools *do* look at the complete applicant. Someone with 1k hours of community service (outside a hospital) isn't going to get autodumped over someone with 10 hours of "shadowing".

 

[Will Ferrell]

I have to disagree with this - schools *do* look at the complete applicant. Someone with 1k hours of community service (outside a hospital) isn't going to get autodumped over someone with 10 hours of "shadowing".

true...don't you think it would at least hurt? how often do you see people w/ no clinical experience getting accepted? maybe because they're so few people lacking it.

 

[Rafa]

true...don't you think it would at least hurt? how often do you see people w/ no clinical experience getting accepted? maybe because they're so few people lacking it.

True, it does seem to hurt applications - or at least come up in interviews. I definitely agree with you on that; I think if it comes down to getting 20 more hours of research in a lab vs. getting those 20 hours wandering through a hospital (with permission, of course), the hospital experience will do more for an application. I don't know the percentages though - this is yet another reason why I need May to come (so I can get the MSAR).

 

[contulusa]

In addition to research and shadowing why don't you join AED, the pre-med honor society or if your campus has Rescue Squad type club that provides medical coverage for your campus. Student Government along with advisory boards for underclassmen are also good ECs that shows that you are a leader on campus as well as the community. You can join clubs with similar interests as you too. Being a physicians is a lot more than grades.

 

[Will Ferrell]

True, it does seem to hurt applications - or at least come up in interviews. I definitely agree with you on that; I think if it comes down to getting 20 more hours of research in a lab vs. getting those 20 hours wandering through a hospital (with permission, of course), the hospital experience will do more for an application. I don't know the percentages though - this is yet another reason why I need May to come (so I can get the MSAR).

the 2006-7 MSAR gives the "proportion of accepted applicants with medically-related work," but those numbers seem too low to be true. many good schools have <80%. i think it's based off whether you used that category on AMCAS for clinical experience. for example, someone who got paid for being a CNA would have that listed under "paid work" or whatever.

 

[infinitejest]

There is no question that for most applicants, ECs play a huge factor. Despite good stats (3.5 and 32) very much in line with my state school (3.7 and 30), I was rejected in the final pool because I didn't have enough hospital-related ECs (I volunteered three hours a week, but tried to "broaden" my app with political-related stuff, working on a newspaper, etc. . .stupid). The Ad-Com lady I spoke with specifically addressed the dearth of medical ECs, despite saying that my numbers were okay.

If you don't want to do the volunteering, etc, then I personally think you're taking a huge risk. I wish I had known 18 months ago (I'm a non-trad) taking my pre-reqs that ECs were this important.

 

[ND2005]

no clinical experience will auto-reject an application (unless you're applying MD/PhD with tons of research experience).

False.

It does hurt, but it definitely does not get you rejected automatically.

 

[Law2Doc]

False.

It does hurt, but it definitely does not get you rejected automatically.

Nothing is "automatic", but I've certainly seen folks lose spots for not having any clinical experience, and have heard about it coming up unfortably in interviews. I've also heard of someone denied admission because "clinical research" did not count as clinical experience. Clinical experience is basically considered a prereq at most places because (1) it gives the applicant some semblance of a perspective about what the practice of medicine is all about, and (2) it shows an interest in working in the field. Adcom members have said that the ideal applicant will have both clinical and research experience, with clinical being the more important baseline of the two. It's not unreasonable considering this is a field you are presumably excited about getting into.

 

[badlydrawnvik]

1. Delivering a baby (twins will push you into 'above and beyond' territory)

2. Starting a small school in a foreign continent.

3. Reaching Avogadro's number in volunteer hours.

If you can do these, you'll be average.

a) rafa always has the best posts.
b) i think ECs are highly overrated.

 

[stylerprodigy]

Would going on a medical missions trip for one week to Honduras be considered as clinical experience?

 

[mac_kin]

a) rafa always has the best posts.
b) i think ECs are highly overrated.

I totally agree about EC's being overrated! Sure, all of us undergrads should get involved somewhere we enjoy just to stay sane through our academic career. But asking for 1000s of hours spent babysitting children at your local hospital (and dont get me wrong I do feel sympathy for the sick kids) or making posters just seems ridiculous.

When I'm on the verge of death from brain cancer I would rather have a doctor who spent those extra 1000s of hours studying or doing academically related things then one who wasted 1000s of hours volunteering in every charity on this planet just so they can collect extra reference letters.

 

[JakeHarley]

Should I drop the research job then and just volunteer? Honestly, research is what I want to do but I just don't have the GPA to apply to an MD/Ph.D program.

If you just want to do research, then why apply to medical school at all? You can get into any number of great Ph. D programs with that kind of background.

Also, MD/Ph.D is not always more difficult to get into. In fact it can be a bit easier because there are fewer MD/Ph.D applicants and your research experience will be a major advantage in that case helpful.

However, my MD/Ph.D friends say "I don't know what I was thinking when I applied Md/Ph.D...I just want to be done with school already!" This after 6 years of study and just beginning clinical rotations...

 

[Law2Doc]

When I'm on the verge of death from brain cancer I would rather have a doctor who spent those extra 1000s of hours studying or doing academically related things then one who wasted 1000s of hours volunteering in every charity on this planet just so they can collect extra reference letters.

What would you care -- you are dying of cancer... There are bigger things you should be focusing on.

 

[cloverpie]

I totally agree about EC's being overrated! Sure, all of us undergrads should get involved somewhere we enjoy just to stay sane through our academic career. But asking for 1000s of hours spent babysitting children at your local hospital (and dont get me wrong I do feel sympathy for the sick kids) or making posters just seems ridiculous.

When I'm on the verge of death from brain cancer I would rather have a doctor who spent those extra 1000s of hours studying or doing academically related things then one who wasted 1000s of hours volunteering in every charity on this planet just so they can collect extra reference letters.

I completely agree with you about the inherent value of EC's, especially those of a clinical nature. Rarely have I ever seen accepted medical school applicants, many of them lacking clinical experience, feel as if they were less prepared for medicine because of no clinical work. These people followed their passions and came upon medicine as a career because of the variety of opportunities to serve people available within medicine.

However, it seems that EC's hold tremendous application value. Now I'll definitely search for some clinical opportunities over the summer. I see applicants who did not have clinical experience but had other stellar EC's (extensive scientific research, mentoring children with various diseases such as diabetes and cancer, etc.). Is clinical experience necessary for applicants who are in the middle of the pack and optional for those at the top of the heap? Or is it really important?

 

[JakeHarley]

I totally agree about EC's being overrated!...

When I'm on the verge of death from brain cancer I would rather have a doctor who spent those extra 1000s of hours studying or doing academically related things then one who wasted 1000s of hours volunteering in every charity on this planet just so they can collect extra reference letters.

That's the thing, a really good doctor can (and often does) do both. Adcoms know it, and that's why they look for it.

Remember, a lot of academically talented people could get through medical school...probably most of the people who apply. However, most medical schools have a mandate to provide caring physicians for their state, and they take that mandate very seriously. Given this, its obvious that out of all the 3.6, 30 MCAT applicants they get (hundreds or even thousands), they are definitely going to grab the ones who have proven that they are willing and able to go above and beyond in terms of service work.

Secondly, adcoms realize that people who have no exposure to clinical medicine more often end up finding that medicine isn't really for them. They don't want to risk offering a seat to someone who will vacate it in a year or two.

 

[cloverpie]

If you just want to do research, then why apply to medical school at all? You can get into any number of great Ph. D programs with that kind of background.

Also, MD/Ph.D is not always more difficult to get into. In fact it can be a bit easier because there are fewer MD/Ph.D applicants and your research experience will be a major advantage in that case helpful.

However, my MD/Ph.D friends say "I don't know what I was thinking when I applied Md/Ph.D...I just want to be done with school already!" This after 6 years of study and just beginning clinical rotations...

I'd like to apply to medical school because I am also interested in clinical research and practice. A tremendous amount of information is present in clinical practice that is very useful in determining one's direction of research and what problems should be researched. I also need human interaction, which is present in academics but to a lesser degree and of a far more competitive nature. Also, I've heard repeatedly from Ph.D's in biomedical research that you will never have the same access to grant money, always have a harder time publishing than your M.D. peers and will never have the same respect. Yikes. To put it as one Ph.D researcher put it to me, "You're always a non-commissioned officer if you're a Ph.D working in the medical field."

Medicine also allows you a lot of versatility that a Ph.D will never have..because of the respect issue, once again. M.D.'s can consult for companies, do both scientific and clinical research, practice and work in administration. I like how I could change careers if I ever became dissatisfied with one.

I'm just at a loss of how to get meaningful clinical experience. I don't want bitchwork at all. I've done that in the past and it was just awful. I can't go against my conscience at this point and do it for the M.D. That's why I was hoping that it wasn't mandatory but it looks more and more like it.

 

[TWP]

Hey Guys,

I have a good friend that got only two interviews with 4.0 and 31 MCAT and has been waitlisted at two "middle of the road" schools because she didn't do her "overrated ECs." I don't know about you people but that scares the crap out of me!!!

 

[Will Ferrell]

Secondly, adcoms realize that people who have no exposure to clinical medicine more often end up finding that medicine isn't really for them. They don't want to risk offering a seat to someone who will vacate it in a year or two.

any proof? i don't think volunteering gives anyone a realistic idea of what medicine is. i don't see how someone lacking it would be less informed than someone who has lots of it.

 

[cloverpie]

any proof? i don't think volunteering gives anyone a realistic idea of what medicine is. i don't see how someone lacking it would be less informed than someone who has lots of it.

Exactly. You learn whether or not you have a stomach for gangrene, or excessive amounts of blood or all of the other icky things you may have to stomach suddenly. That you can learn in what, about a month? When you have someone's life in your hands as an M.D., that's a different story.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

If you just want to do research, then why apply to medical school at all? You can get into any number of great Ph. D programs with that kind of background.

Also, MD/Ph.D is not always more difficult to get into. In fact it can be a bit easier because there are fewer MD/Ph.D applicants and your research experience will be a major advantage in that case helpful.

However, my MD/Ph.D friends say "I don't know what I was thinking when I applied Md/Ph.D...I just want to be done with school already!" This after 6 years of study and just beginning clinical rotations...

Well look at what you have to do to get into uber-competitive specialties. It ain't community service...its usually excellent board scores and plenty of research experience. For that matter, try getting into a top tier medical school with no research experience. Like it or not, research is more important than any other EC on your app other than clinical exposure...

 

[dbhvt]

In short, I find that time management is critical. If you truly cannot fit everything in to make a decent gpa, then start dropping things in order of least importance. Some of my friends see sleep or exercise as the least important things. Its all about your priorities, gpa and mcat are unfortunately the first things that are used to differentiate applicants, not volunteer hours.

Chuck Norris can reverse the flow of time by performing a roundhouse kick backwards.

 

[el1984]

trust me, ECs are important. i applied this year thinking i could get in with good gpa (3.73 from top 20 UG) and a good mcat (36). however, the only ECs i had were a few months of volunteering in the peds ER and some intramural sports and 3+ years of research. i am most likely going to have to reapply, since i am probably on the lower tier of the 5 schools i am waitlisted at. even if your gpa may suffer a .1 or .2 b/c of the time you spend on ECs, it may be worth it.

 

[p00psicleSTICK]

trust me, ECs are important. i applied this year thinking i could get in with good gpa (3.73 from top 20 UG) and a good mcat (36). however, the only ECs i had were a few months of volunteering in the peds ER and some intramural sports and 3+ years of research. i am most likely going to have to reapply, since i am probably on the lower tier of the 5 schools i am waitlisted at. even if your gpa may suffer a .1 or .2 b/c of the time you spend on ECs, it may be worth it.

Totally agree. I have good gpa/mcat but I'm getting no love from med schools. I have almost no clinical experience and it's killing me even though I have more than enough research experience. I'm going to be reapplying this summer while working on my clinical stuff and I'm sure I'll have better luck.

 

[infinitejest]

Totally agree. I have good gpa/mcat but I'm getting no love from med schools. I have almost no clinical experience and it's killing me even though I have more than enough research experience. I'm going to be reapplying this summer while working on my clinical stuff and I'm sure I'll have better luck.

I posted on the first page already, but it is simply impossible to overestimate the importance of EC's. I was denied at my state school with 3.5/32 (which is right in their range for in-staters) due to my medical ECs (just did a small amount of volunteering, only 3 hours a week), even though I have a solid and well-rounded resume otherwise. My point is that you're taking an awfully big gamble, and it could really come back to haunt you. Having made the mistake myself, I'd like to help other avoid making it too!

 

[Iwy Em Hotep]

I'm going to make the unpopular opinion that ECs don't matter that much, except to give you an idea of what you're going into and to give you something to talk about on your PS and during interviews. Exceptions are everywhere, but trends usually put higher scoring students over lower scoring ones, even with accounting for ECs.

I was offered 5 interviews before I declined the rest after my acceptance at my #1 choice. My stats: ~3.7, 35+, double major in science and engineering in highly ranked programs at a top 50 state school. Generously, I'd put myself at 100 hours of volunteer work doing this and that during college, doing little more than getting myself used to the hospital environment. I did a little bit of research, but nothing published. Not really any leadership positions to speak of.

It's more a matter of applying broadly, in my opinion. If you only apply to top 10 schools, then you're going to get shot down a lot.

 

[contulusa]

At some schools ECs may matter more than others but why would you not want to volunteer some of your time to help those less fortunate than you? You may not get a chance while in med school to volunteer as much as would like to. I am not just talking about volunteering in a hospital because if you sowup or not life will go on, but guys try to volunteer at a nursing home, homeless shelter, shelter for battered and abused children, and reading to children in a middle school (ALL very rewarding). Life is a little more than doing ECs to get into med school. If you volunteer it will make you a more compasionate person which will show up in interviews which may help you get into med school!

 

[Law2Doc]

I posted on the first page already, but it is simply impossible to overestimate the importance of EC's. I was denied at my state school with 3.5/32 (which is right in their range for in-staters) due to my medical ECs (just did a small amount of volunteering, only 3 hours a week), even though I have a solid and well-rounded resume otherwise. My point is that you're taking an awfully big gamble, and it could really come back to haunt you. Having made the mistake myself, I'd like to help other avoid making it too!

Agree with this. I've seen folks fail in this process because they didn't have adequate ECs (particularly clinical). It gives you a tiny window of exposure as to what physicians actually do, gives you something to talk about in your PS and interviews, and shows schools you are actually interested in working in the field, in some small way. Med schools are increasingly expecting more and more from applicants, both in terms of numbers and in nonnumerical credentials. Don't jeopardize your future by not doing that which is more or less expected of an applicant these days. Sure, there are likely one or two folks who get in with high stats and nothing else, but there are far far more who have just these credentials and don't.

 

[45408]

I was carrying 20+ hours a semester and studying for the MCAT and my interviewers hit me for a gap in my ECs durring those semesters.

Your interviewers were lame then, because when I was taking 21 credits, I was in class/driving to class for 60-70 hours a week, not including studying (another 15-20 hours).

 

[NapeSpikes]

Your interviewers were lame then, because when I was taking 21 credits, I was in class/driving to class for 60-70 hours a week, not including studying (another 15-20 hours).

Off topic, but why did you have so much class time? Even for 21 units, that sounds insane.

 

[RxnMan]

I totally agree about EC's being overrated! Sure, all of us undergrads should get involved somewhere we enjoy just to stay sane through our academic career. But asking for 1000s of hours spent babysitting children at your local hospital (and dont get me wrong I do feel sympathy for the sick kids) or making posters just seems ridiculous.

When I'm on the verge of death from brain cancer I would rather have a doctor who spent those extra 1000s of hours studying or doing academically related things then one who wasted 1000s of hours volunteering in every charity on this planet just so they can collect extra reference letters.

I think the 1000 hours is more useful in proving to you (one way or another) that medicine is for you. Then the ADCOMs know you are committed to the field because you've already experienced it (to the greatest extent a non-medical person can).