DO for Dermatology residency?

[doc2b34]

Hey everyone,

I haven't started school yet, but I am admitted to TUCOM for fall of 2002. I was wondering if anybody knows how hard derm. residency really is. What you would need to get in and is it possible for an Osteopath to get a residency spot for Dermatology. I don't care where I have to move to. Thank you, doc2b34

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[pags]

A DO has virtually no chance allopathically. You can fight for one of the 17 to 19 spots the AOA offers each year but prepare to be the best in the class, have research, and 99's on your boards. I was looking into derm myself for a brief period I realized it's all about not what you know, but who you know. Derm is a very political field.

 

[gasrx]

there is 1 osteopathic spot in michigan that did not fill this year.

 

[doc2b34]

It almost sounds hopeless, but I won't give up just yet. I'm curious about this spot that didn't fill in Michigan? Does anybody know anymore? Where can I find more info. on this topic. Thank guys, doc2b34

 

[Soup #5]

Just to respond to someone who posted the following.

"A DO has virtually no chance allopathically."

I think this isn't entirely true. I know of a DO in an Arizona allopathic program who is doing derm. In fact he said there's actually two of them, the other one above his class. I think they're both from a small school in MO called Kirkwood.

 

[Voxel]

If that is the only DO who matched last year, then it would be 1 out of ~250/yr. The odds are less than 1/2 of 1%.

 

[arthur v]

To doc2b34,

Don't let the naysayers disuade you if dermatology is indeed your passion. Here's what you need to do to make yourself competitive for dermatology:

1) Attempt to ace absolutely everything you do in medical school. We're all human, so you probably won't have a perfect transcript, but try as hard as you can to strive for it.

2) Boards are huge. To prove to many allopathic programs that you're the equal of an M.D. candidate, you need to score as high as possible on USMLE Step 1. If you happen not to, all is not lost, but it does make your job considerably harder.

3) Do research during your freshman summer and any other free time you have. Your goal should be to be published as a first author by the time you are a senior applying for residency. Case reports are fine, but more in-depth case series or bench research in dermatology are much better. Granted, this is easier said than done.

4) Rotate during your third (if possible) and fourth years through some allopathic programs you might have a reasonable shot with - i.e. in your home town, or a place you did research during that freshman summer, etc. I hate to say it, but you've got to be realistic - the Tiffany programs in dermatology probably aren't going to take you. During this time, you need to be yourself and hope that everyone at the program loves you, as this is your best chance of being accepted.

5) If your efforts fall through, prepare to do what many M.D. candidates (and there are many) who fail to match in dermatology do, and look for a research fellowship of 1 to 2 years which will enhance your marketability to allopathic programs.

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise: this is, bar none, the most competitive specialty out there, and you are starting with a strike against you, but nothing worthwhile has ever been easily obtained. I wish you the very best of luck, and encourage you to go for it - dermatology truly is worth it.

AV

 

[doc2b34]

To arthur V,

Hey thanks a lot for the confidence builder. I will try my best to get top scores on virtually everything I do anyways, but now I know that boards are very important. Thanks again for the great info. doc2b34

P.S.-What school are you currently enrolled in Arthur and what do you aspire to become in this great medical field? Anymore info. anyone?

 

[Edward Tsai D.O.]

Hi All.
My 2 cents about D.O.s and Dermatology: Dermatology is a very competitive field. I don't think that being a D.O. or M.D. is as important as competence and who you know.
I graduated from LECOM. One of my classmates told me he matched for Dermatology at the University if Pittsburgh in addition to his internship year which he was going to do at West Penn Hospital also in Pittsburgh. University of Pittsburgh is a University, allopathic program. He was a very good student at LECOM, and he told me he knew someone in the department.

That's one example. There is another graduate from LECOM that is doing Dermatology in a military residency. It is listed under alumni news in LECOM newsletter at <a href="http://www.lecom.edu." target="_blank">www.lecom.edu.</a>

Although some residency directors will be biased against D.O.s (remember, D.O.s I believe, weren't allowed to do M.D. residencies until the 70's or 80's...a period of only 20-30 years!) this is rapidly disappearing as our numbers increase in the physician manpower pool and RD's come into contact with more and more D.O.s. I really think RD's in general could care less about the whole M.D./D.O. debate...RD's just want to select the best possible residents they can for each class. So, if you want Dermatology, work hard, develop competence, try to be better than your competition, and become as desirable as possible in the eyes of your RDs.

Good luck,

Edward Tsai, D.O.
Resident

 

[LECOM12]

I will also be attending LECOM (Class of 2006) and have an interest in DERM. You had stated that your friend matched. How were his grades? And did he do any research? I heard that most of the LECOM students match with their first choice. Is this true?

 

[Justianna Artz]

Which ratio do you look at to determine how competitive a program is? I checked the NRMP and I found several ambiguous stats. I'm just curious about proportion wise, which is most competitive. For instance, I heard radiology and dermatology were the two most competitive. How about combined plastics? I think there were 67 combined plastics spots last year. I wonder which is proportion wise truly the most difficult ratio... I do believe it might be dermatology.

 

[arthur v]

You can look at the statistics posted on the ERAS and NRMP sites for last year's match. Let's take dermatology and radiology. Last year, there were 827 applicants to dermatology for 262 spots, giving a match rate of 31.68%. In radiology, there were 2299 applicants for 875 spots, thus a match rate of 38.06%. No numbers are given on ERAS for combined plastic surgery, but I'm sure it's much worse than the dismal match rates of derm and rads. However, there are two paths to plastic surgery, and if you complete a general surgery residency, the match rate for a plastics fellowship is &gt;75%.

 

[doc2b34]

To Edward and Arthur,

Thanks for the info. I'm going to check out the resources that were presented on your messages and will use it to jump start my research on how to become a dermatologist. Thanks again, doc2b34

 

[Jim Picotte]

I think you also have to look at how those numbers breakdown. For the 875 spots in Radiology there were 2299 applicants but 802 of those were IMG's, 141 DO's and 14 Canadians. All these groups and in particular IMGs have an extremely difficult time getting matched into the allopathic programs (DO's do much better than IMG's of course). So you're left with 1342 US MD applicants for 875 slots. We'll assume the DO's and IMG's get 75 of those slots so there are 800 slots that 1342 US MD applicants wanted to get into for a 59.6% chance to match.

For Dermatology 827 applicants for 262 spots with 174 IMG's, 42 DO's and 15 Canadians. So we're left with 596 US MD applicants and assuming that perhaps 20 of these slots are filled with an IMG, DO or Canadian there are 242 spots available so you have a 40.6% chance to match if you're a US MD.

Dermatology is certainly one of the most difficult specialties to match into but if you look at the odds, they are still better than getting into medical school in the US. There's a few DO Derm programs as well and I think those might be easier to get into as a DO, but you're not entirely out of it if you want to go to an allopathic Derm program.

 

[godfather]

your forgetting to add the fact that the derm pool is made up of a self selecting group. The allopathic people that even bother to apply have very high board scores and are often times AOA(ie in the top 5-10 % of their class). Thus that 40% chance is actually lower than 40%. Realistically a DO (unless you've won a nobel prize or even better are related to a PD) doesn't have a prayer in matching into an allopathic derm residency. Radiology, ER, and the other competitive fields are a little different because there are so many spots and not every AOA necessarily wants to go into these fields thus freeing up spots for average candidates. But even for these fields DO is running uphill since most pd's feel that if they take too many DO's the reputation of their residency will suffer, meaning that they will most times take an average allopathic student over a DO. However DO's do get into some of these fields just simply because their are so many spots(although recently it has gotten very tough for do's and img's to match in rad, er, ortho,).

 

[Teufelhunden]

Realistically a DO (unless you've won a nobel prize or even better are related to a PD) doesn't have a prayer in matching into an allopathic derm residency.

Uhhh....okay. Did you not read the above examples of DO's who are currently in allopathic derm programs. Doesn't kinda coincide with your "doesn't have a prayer" statement, huh?

 

[arthur v]

Just thought I'd post an update and a rebuke to the the aforementioned comment. Two DO's matched into allopathic derm this year, one of them to the Cleveland Clinic.

AV

 

[nyskindr]

There are a couple of FMGs who match into Derm each year.These individuals generally have very compelling circumstances,such as extensive experience in Dermatology in their home country or significant research skills,(or just GREAT connections)

 

[The Mesentery]

I was quite impressed that KCOM students matched 3 dermatology spots this year (one at Cleveland Clinic!). The point is, don't discount yourself because you're in a DO program.

 

[Dr. MAXY]

I believe one can accomplish anything they put their minds into. I have heard alot about all this competitive residencies out there that are every tough for DO's or IMG's to match into. As an incoming med Student (OSU-COM class of 2006), and interested in Othro, CT or Neurosurgery, I believe it can be done. The osteopathic profession has come a long way and have overcome a lot of barriers, so has osteopathic graduates matching into allopathic residencies. Barriers will continously be overcome.

 

[DrStacey69]

Nothing is cast in stone. This year NYCOM had students match in allopathic Ophtho and Urology programs, and some others were the first DOs taken into certain general surgery programs.

If I were you I would definitely try for the Derm residency of your choice - you never know, you may be the first! But you should always have a "Plan B" in mind, just in case.

Good luck!

 

[DermRes]

I know that many of the residents in the osteopathy dermatology residency have waited a few years before they secured a spot. Quite a few of them have completed another residency training prior to starting derm!! If you want to get into a derm residency, you will need to be committed, and prepare the long run.
Attend AOA meetings and AOCD (American Osteopathic College of Dermatology) meetings and introduce yourself to the program directors there. It will be much easier to arrange for rotation when they have met you at least once.

Every AOCD meetings I have been to were filled with students, interns, and residents from other specialties who wants to go into derm. If you are interested in derm, you need to start going to these meetings early on.

 

[maxheadroom]

As an M4 applicant in one of the most competitive fields I have yet to meet a DO student (after 6 of my 12 interviews). I'd advise any student who is planning on starting medschool soon to be careful about going to a DO school if they're interested in competitive fields like Derm, Plastics, ENT, Ortho, NeuroSurg, or Uro. True, DOs do get into these fields, but those who do are the exception, not the rule. Several people in my class (M.D. school) took a year off and reapplied instead to going to a DO school--one of them was just elected AOA (med school honor society, very exclusive). Point is, if you know that you want to do one of the more competitive fields, you might be better off waiting a year and reapplying to MD schools. But I'm sure that there are lots of people who feel otherwise.

If you're interested in IM, Peds, FP, ER, Path, Rads, or Gas, you shouldn't have a problem finding a good program as a DO.

 

[felson]

The chance of getting into US MD schools is significantly if you are an instate resident of states with many medical schools like Texas, New York and Illinois. Before going offshore, if you are from competitive states like California, consider relocating. After working one year, you will attain state resident status which improves the odds of getting and lowers the tuition tremendously.

 

[DermRes]

I agree with the advice of relocating if you want to get into a MD school. State residency makes a big difference.

However, I think being a DO offers great opportunity for going into the competitive specialties. It is a smaller profession and it is easier to get to know program directors in DO residency. Also, many DO students are self selected to be geared toward primary care so competition I think may not be as keen in getting into these residencies.

On the other hands, the DO programs are lot fewer. For example, I estimate there are about 16-18 new first year positions each year for dermatology, as oppose to MD programs which are significantly greater in number.

I believe believe being a DO offers an unique opportunities for these competitive specialties. But whether it is easier than coming from a MD school, I really don't know. It is hard to do a comparative study on the advantage of being a DO vs an MD as to getting into thos speciaties.

I personally think being a DO helped me in securing a position. But each of us will have different opinion on this

 

[DoctorDoogie4]

I have talked to many program directors regarding whether or not a DO degree would hinder my chances of getting a spot in a tough field to match in...All of them have told me it doesn't matter what your degree is as long as you have the USMLE and letters of rec. With that said, Univ of Cincinnati, very allopathic institution just admitted their first DO to their derm program. The Program director told me that she had the scores to compete and she was one of the few DOs that had the scores that actually applied. I was informed that many DOs don't apply and they should apply if they have the numbers...hope this adds some insights

 

[OldManDave]

Originally posted by Soup #5
Just to respond to someone who posted the following.

"A DO has virtually no chance allopathically."

I think this isn't entirely true. I know of a DO in an Arizona allopathic program who is doing derm. In fact he said there's actually two of them, the other one above his class. I think they're both from a small school in MO called Kirkwood.

Actually, the school's name is The Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine, is the founding school of DO medicine & has been quite successfull in placing its students in competitive residencies, both allopathic & osteopathic ones.

If I correctly recall, 2 of the class of 2002 went into allopathic Derm slots and I think 3 from my class (1 allopathic & 2 osteopathic) got Derm slots. The class of 2003 also placed several students into top-notch anesthesiology slots (Dartmouth & UTx Southwestern), surgery (including Bethesda), IM (Yale), PM&R (4 in this: Georgetown & Mayo - in fact, 2 of Mayo's 4 PM&R slots went to my classmates) & more DO & MD surgical slots than you throw a stick at!

Will it be easy to land Derm, or any of the other competitive specialties? Hell No, but it is entirely possible, even probable if you earn the numbers, do the networking, make the grades and get strong letters of rec from the right people. Are you at a competitive disadvantage cause you'll be a DO? NO, I think that is simply a hollow excuse people use to avoid admitting that their own misdeeds may have cost them the slot they dreamed of. To get slots like these, it takes a hell of lot more than dreaming - it takes hard work, dedication and savvy.