DO friendly Allopathic programs in the SE?

[Jheimers]

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I'm an OMS-3 who wants to do Anesthesia, but with so few AOA programs, less than desirable location, and questionable fellowship opportunities for many of them, I have concerns. I know most places say they will look at D.O.'s but rarely consider them. I was curious which ACGME programs were truly DO friendly particularly in the Southeast?

Miami Jackson? UF? Mayo? etc..

Also if you have any positives about the any of the AOA programs feel free to let me know. I like Largo's location but have heard mixed reviews.

Thanks in Advance

 

[soon2b]

I don't know why you think that many programs won't consider DO applicants. If you go to many of the program websites and look at their current resident profiles you'll find that many programs have accepted DOs. Also, as far as specialties are concerned DO's have done particularly well in ACGME anesthesia residencies. The same generic advice that is given to everyone is applicable here as well...get a good USMLE 1 score, rotate at places that you want to go, get good letters, apply broadly...etc. I called a DO who went to my school and is now an anesthesia resident at Rush and he put it bluntly and said "to be honest, it's all about board scores." He had a 233 and got interviews all over the place and matched at a great program as you can see.

Also, my personal opinion is ACGME residency is the way to go. The anesthesia residents at my school are adequately trained but I don't know if I'd say they are well trained. My reason for this is lack of diversity of cases and shabby facilities. Whether or not this is something that permeates throughout all osteo residencies I can't say, but I wouldn't want to take a chance either.

 

[DO Anes]

Nearly all programs look at DO's. Many will not, however, look at the COMLEX. The most competitive applicants have the USMLE. The board scores aren't everything, but they are nearly everything. No amount of grades, EC's, ect. will overcome a lackluster board score. The average program receives >100 applicants per space. There are no AOA residencies that even come close to any ACGME program.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Nearly all programs look at DO's. Many will not, however, look at the COMLEX. The most competitive applicants have the USMLE. The board scores aren't everything, but they are nearly everything. No amount of grades, EC's, ect. will overcome a lackluster board score. The average program receives >100 applicants per space. There are no AOA residencies that even come close to any ACGME program.

I think you nailed it. If you are going to apply allopathic, take the USMLE. It just makes it so much easier. It is usually cyclical so there will probably come a time when it is not as competitive again when you can get a spot without the usmle. This is not the time to take that gamble. It's too competitive right now.

Probably too much emphasis is placed on the scores, but the schools are giving PDs less and less information with which to seperate great candidates from bad ones (LORs are almost all the same, Dean's letters are almost all strongly positive, few schools rank their students anymore although some still give quartiles, pass/fail grading system). USMLE's sometimes become the only way to seperate students. And we all know a few psychopaths who can ace a standardized exam but you would never want near a family member.

The system needs revamped and we need better information from the schools. The USMLE has become such a high stakes exam that one falter can crush a good student's career options. AOA and Gold Humanism awards help distinguish but apply to a small percentage. AOA is certainly not fool proof either, but when Gold Humanism awards are elected by their peers, I think that is a pretty strong positive indicator of quality. Osteopathic schools have an equivalent to the AOA called the SSP, but some schools elect almost half of their students to be inducted which waters it down considerably. I don't know of an osteopathic equivalent for the Gold Humanism award, but there may be one.

As stated, I think the change needs to come from the medical schools who have taken the easy, non-controversial way by saying all of their graduates are equal and qualified, therefore, they will not give you any way to seperate the good from the bad. I think change will eventually come.

 

[scudrunner]

Osteopathic schools have an equivalent to the AOA called the SSP, but some schools elect almost half of their students to be inducted which waters it down considerably.

I'm not sure what it takes to be AOA in allo schools, but SSP selection is no indication of academic excellence. It is much more about community service/organization involvement/osteopathic dedication/blah/blah/blah than how smart you are. I have a buddy that is unquestionably at the top of the class, academically, who got passed over for SSP twice. Plus, they induct people during the first year! WTF. SSP is a joke.

 

[NK1Positive]

SSP selection is no indication of academic excellence. It is much more about community service/organization involvement/osteopathic dedication/blah/blah/blah than how smart you are..... SSP is a joke.

I completely agree. At my school SSP is basically a popularity contest and is dependent on who you know in SSP.

 

[Jheimers]

OK. Well issue is I didn't take USMLE step 1 bc at the time I didnt have much if any intention to apply to a residency where its needed. I can and will take step 2 if needed but honestly if they make me take another test bc mine isnt good enough does that not suggest that my education as a whole is not good enough?

 

[xbulletin]

Many of these programs don't know what COMLEX means and are unconcerned with it.

And while most programs will look at DOs (most of the Manhattan programs do not), they do require you to take USMLE step 1 and 2 for consideration.

I know many DOs applying in anesthesia that have taken both the COMLEX and USMLEs. If you aren't willing to do so, than I would honestly forget about "allopathic" programs.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

OK. Well issue is I didn't take USMLE step 1 bc at the time I didnt have much if any intention to apply to a residency where its needed. I can and will take step 2 if needed but honestly if they make me take another test bc mine isnt good enough does that not suggest that my education as a whole is not good enough?

NO.

It just means that they don't really know how to compare the two tests to each other.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I know many DOs applying in anesthesia that have taken both the COMLEX and USMLEs. If you aren't willing to do so, than I would honestly forget about "allopathic" programs.

Disagree. Although I highly recommend the USMLE, not taking it is not necessarily a deal-breaker (although it will shut you out of certain places).

 

[xbulletin]

Fair enough.

But taking USMLE step 1 can open a lot of doors.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Arch,
Not taking either USMLE Step 1 or Step 2 does make life difficult, especially if you're from the South, and wish to remain in the South.

OP, take Step 2 early like in June or July, and do a few auditions...hopefully it works out. I took Step 2 in November (stupid me) and didn't take Step 1... did a few auditions... hopefully I match. Interviewed at 7 programs w/o USMLE, but I pretty much told them all that I had Step 2 scheduled/taken/pending, etc... even when making cold calls, I told them I was taking Step 2 and really wanted to have the opportunity to interview at their program... i updated them all of my score...we'll find out in 3 weeks if it all worked out...

 

[kazuma]

Fair enough.

But taking USMLE step 1 can open a lot of doors.

And along with taking USMLE step 2 it will open even more.

I agree with D4life, he's spot on. I have a good friend who is literally at the top of my class who didn't take either USMLE, but he did score 99's on the Comlex. While he got a lot of interviews, he definitely was shut out at a lot of places. And he was scrutinized at several of the interviews as they didn't understand why he didn't take the USMLE after doing so well on Comlex.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Yeah, I think the only way to score interviews w/o USMLE is if you managed to score in the 95-99 range, which means you have to absolutely rape the COMLEX... I wasn't that high of a scorer, I'm just normal and average.

A few PD's told me they have applicants who score 95s-99s, and that's what they like to see. No joke, no mention of 3 digit scores as much as they mentioned the 2 digit scores...

It's easier to score 95s-99s on USMLE than it is on COMLEX, or so I think. My USMLE Step 2 score is in that range.

BTW bro, thanks for pushin me to taking Step 2.

 

[Goforbroke]

Yeah, I think the only way to score interviews w/o USMLE is if you managed to score in the 95-99 range, which means you have to absolutely rape the COMLEX... I wasn't that high of a scorer, I'm just normal and average.

A few PD's told me they have applicants who score 95s-99s, and that's what they like to see. No joke, no mention of 3 digit scores as much as they mentioned the 2 digit scores...

It's easier to score 95s-99s on USMLE than it is on COMLEX, or so I think. My USMLE Step 2 score is in that range.

Yea, I got 99th percentile on Comlex which came out to be like a 94-95? Usmle I think you can get a 99 with anything >234ish, i.e <75th percentile. It's ******ed and I can't figure out how they come up with those 2-dig #'s. Most of the programs I interviewed at didn't really look at the COMLEX anyway, but they like it to be >600 on both steps (so i've heard).

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I took USMLE I/II/III and I HIGHLY encourage all DO students to take at least Step I and I/II if possible.

The South is probably harder for a DO student to match in general but I stand by my assertion that COMLEX only is not a deal-breaker and I would not "forget" about matching ACGME. Of course, I went through the process a number of years ago, although I suspect that the c0ompetition for spots hasn't changed all that dramatically.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Oh and I hate the whole "OMS" thing😎

 

[kazuma]

Oh and I hate the whole "OMS" thing😎

You mean OMS as in what people write after their names? ex: John Smith OMS IV?

If so, I hate it too. You don't see allopathic students writing "AMS IV" after their names.

 

[kazuma]

It's easier to score 95s-99s on USMLE than it is on COMLEX, or so I think. My USMLE Step 2 score is in that range.

BTW bro, thanks for pushin me to taking Step 2.

No problem Brother, I'm glad it turned out well for you. I knew it would. Thanks for the good wishes and helping keep me motivated to study during that rough time last summer.

 

[kazuma]

I took USMLE I/II/III and I HIGHLY encourage all DO students to take at least Step I and I/II if possible.

The South is probably harder for a DO student to match in general but I stand by my assertion that COMLEX only is not a deal-breaker and I would not "forget" about matching ACGME. Of course, I went through the process a number of years ago, although I suspect that the c0ompetition for spots hasn't changed all that dramatically.

I'd be ecstatic if I taking USMLE step 3 meant being able to wash my hands of the AOA. However, I think I'd actually have to take USMLE CS to be eligible for step 3.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

No problem Brother, I'm glad it turned out well for you. I knew it would. Thanks for the good wishes and helping keep me motivated to study during that rough time last summer.

No problem... and I certainly wish I'd taken that advice sooner than I had, but hopefully it works out well... even if it won't be at UAB, lol.. 🙁

 

[soon2b]

I get asked by 2nd years at my school whether or not they should take COMLEX only or both COMLEX and USMLE. I always say take both. Just take them both I say and say again. My reasoning...regret sucks. Don't put yourself in a position of having the potential to regret something huge like taking the USMLE. Just do it damn it.