Advice on Ranking Programs

[UnemployedYeti21]

Hi all,

I was wondering if I could get some input on ranking some programs: University of Minnesota, University of Nebraska, and Mayo Clinic.

My general impressions of them so far are below, but the biggest question I essentially have is -- is it worth going to a more prestigious place if you know you're going to be miserable there due to location? I am considering an academic career. The Mayo name would be beneficial for fellowship/job finding, but I wouldn't be very happy there because of its location compared to UNebraska/UMinnesota.

I would appreciate any input or general thoughts on the individual programs themselves - thank you.

Impressions

• University of Minnesota:
  
  • Pros:
    • Best location out of the 3 by far. Would be very happy living in the Twin Cities
    • Leadership seems very supportive
    • Residents seemed happy (as far as I could tell) and they regularly hang out outside of work
    • Relieved by CRNAs for daily didactics
    • Otherwise seems to be a reputable program
  • Cons:
    • Level II Trauma Center
    • Little-to-no prestige. I personally do not care about prestige, but I recognize its importance for those considering an academic career
      
• Mayo Clinic (Rochester, MN)
  
  • Pros:
    • Very supportive leadership and positive work culture
    • Level 1 Trauma Center with amazing case volume and complexity
    • Prestigious -- the name could help open doors as I am considering (but not set on) an academic career.
  • Cons:
    • Location. There is nothing to do in Rochester and I would be relatively unhappy outside of work.
    • Most residents have families and rarely hang out outside of work.
      
• University of Nebraska
  
  • Pros:
    • Seems like a very supportive environment
    • Residents are happy and regularly socialize outside of work
    • Level 1 Trauma and major center for liver transplants
  • Cons:
    • Location is a small con. But I wouldn't mind being in Omaha.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[aneftp]

Forget mayo if you don’t think you can live in smaller city.

Omaha or Minneapolis are fine locations. My former colleague who I just met up with Saturday went to med school in Omaha. She met her husband there. It’s a great town. Tons of food choices. At one time it had the most restaurants per population size. Not sure if that’s true any more

Obviously Minneapolis is a bigger city.

Seems like your gut tells you to go to Minnesota. Go with your gut.

Don't over think prestige. They are all fine programs.

 

[nimbus]

If you’d like to live in MSP long-term and want to do academics, train at Minnesota and stay on as faculty there.

 

[AnonymousPD]

OP,

My advice to you would be to prioritize the programs you see yourself happily working the hardest in. A resident who is well balanced and feels emotionally supported will work harder, invest themselves more, is better able to handle the random trials and tribulations of residency with grace rather than resentment, and will be a better physician at the end of training. Only you truly know what matters to you when it comes to what you want out of a program and asking unknown people online for specific reasons why or why not is mostly an exercise in conformation bias.

You say you are “considering a job in academics.” While a shiny diploma from a blue blood program and the connections made there are of some benefit, how much varies greatly depending on program. What is far more important (besides bringing lots of research funding with you), is coming with ideas, motivation, and a positive attitude that convinces people that you truly intend to contribute to the academic mission. While anything is possible, I think this would be less likely if you spend 4 years training in a location that makes you miserable.

If you give me someone who cares and tries hard, building a meaningful and successful academic career is easy. No matter where you end up, the only thing that will matter to your organization is the quality of your work. Nobody will really care what program you came from.

 

[Drägerman]

To add a few more points. I think Nebraska is a strong program with a good amount of money for resident support (nothing compared to Mayo) and Omaha is a solid town. Minneapolis is definitely a much larger city with the associated pros and cons. What about city size interests you? Cultural demographics? Dating? Things to do? Airport? Have you lived in the Midwest?

Mayo has seemingly endless money for residents and staff to attend conferences which you might see as a benefit for your future career aspirations. Significant case complexity. Anecdotally, I have heard the residents are working more than they used to. Rochester also probably isn’t as bad as you think and mayo is pouring tons of money into it to make it more appealing (but also don’t know your background and why you would prefer an urban area)

The anes department at Minnesota had a rough 2000s-10s but has improved. One downside of the University of Minnesota is that they regularly rotate at many hospitals (5?) so you may not see your classmates as much as the other programs. Some may find this more isolating. Nebraska is more or less in one place and you can see a lot of your classmates more frequently.

Can’t go wrong with any of them.

N=1

 

[kidthor]

It seems like you want to rank Minnesota first. You’re probably underestimating its prestige and overestimating the impact of prestige on future jobs. It’s a solid, connected university program that’s well regarded and would serve you well in academics.

I work in academics now and for faculty recruitment we care way more about your academic output and potential than whether Mayo is fancier than UMN.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

Different perspective from me.

Go to Mayo. It’s worth the name recognition. If you’re smart then the training will take you far anywhere, but people do make assumptions based on names, and certain ones do jump off the page more.

Particularly if you have a specific region or competitive region in mind, sometimes places will “make room” for people with the pedigree they want. Seen it happen numerous times

 

[Katheudontas parateroumen]

Are you interested in fellowship? I’d say that is more important nowadays when it comes to getting a big academic job. Other than that, just staying on staff with wherever you train at. So with that said, you could go with your gut and do your residency and then do fellowship for a year somewhere “more prestigious”as an option. Anesthesia fellowships are generally non competitive other than maybe cardiac and pain.

I think all three programs would give you great training. I have personally worked with many people from Mayo and honestly think they are great. Very academic, professional and clinically broad and strong (maybe it’s just self selection anyways). UM I’m sure will give you everything that you need in a broad education at a major hospital/medical school. Nebraska is a sleeper in how good of program it is. Very good critical care there I hear too if you’re interested (I’m icu/anesthesia).

Good luck! Sometimes the match has a way of just taking you where you were meant to be.

 

[UnemployedYeti21]

To add a few more points. I think Nebraska is a strong program with a good amount of money for resident support (nothing compared to Mayo) and Omaha is a solid town. Minneapolis is definitely a much larger city with the associated pros and cons. What about city size interests you? Cultural demographics? Dating? Things to do? Airport? Have you lived in the Midwest?

Mayo has seemingly endless money for residents and staff to attend conferences which you might see as a benefit for your future career aspirations. Significant case complexity. Anecdotally, I have heard the residents are working more than they used to. Rochester also probably isn’t as bad as you think and mayo is pouring tons of money into it to make it more appealing (but also don’t know your background and why you would prefer an urban area)

The anes department at Minnesota had a rough 2000s-10s but has improved. One downside of the University of Minnesota is that they regularly rotate at many hospitals (5?) so you may not see your classmates as much as the other programs. Some may find this more isolating. Nebraska is more or less in one place and you can see a lot of your classmates more frequently.

Can’t go wrong with any of them.

N=1

I think all of the points you listed are reasons for why I am interested in city size/life. I grew up in the Midwest, but went to school in bigger cities and have come to appreciate diversity and more options for things to do.

I appreciate the points about UMinnesota and UNebraska. If the programs are pretty equal in terms of clinical training, then it sounds like I can't go wrong with prioritizing location.

 

[UnemployedYeti21]

Different perspective from me.

Go to Mayo. It’s worth the name recognition. If you’re smart then the training will take you far anywhere, but people do make assumptions based on names, and certain ones do jump off the page more.

Particularly if you have a specific region or competitive region in mind, sometimes places will “make room” for people with the pedigree they want. Seen it happen numerous times

I think this is one of the bigger hangups for me: questioning how important the name recognition is.

I am also considering moving to either the West or East coast one day -- but am wondering, would Mayo really provide a significant advantage over the other programs in terms of connections/getting a job?

 

[UnemployedYeti21]

Are you interested in fellowship? I’d say that is more important nowadays when it comes to getting a big academic job. Other than that, just staying on staff with wherever you train at. So with that said, you could go with your gut and do your residency and then do fellowship for a year somewhere “more prestigious”as an option. Anesthesia fellowships are generally non competitive other than maybe cardiac and pain.

I think all three programs would give you great training. I have personally worked with many people from Mayo and honestly think they are great. Very academic, professional and clinically broad and strong (maybe it’s just self selection anyways). UM I’m sure will give you everything that you need in a broad education at a major hospital/medical school. Nebraska is a sleeper in how good of program it is. Very good critical care there I hear too if you’re interested (I’m icu/anesthesia).

Good luck! Sometimes the match has a way of just taking you where you were meant to be.

Yes! I am very interested in critical care fellowship so maybe I should go with my gut and prioritize location

 

[ToKingdomCome]

I would do Mayo. It’s 4 years for a lifetime of training. Yes the location stinks but you’ll be working most of the time. If you have to be in a big city than do Minnesota or Nebraska. Both are basically the same.

 

[PainInTheAnes]

Yes! I am very interested in critical care fellowship so maybe I should go with my gut and prioritize location

There are no prestigious anesthesia critical care fellowships just so you know. Most top programs do not fill and it’s not for lack of trying.

That residency credential signals your training and your general competency in many cases. In a field like anesthesia where it’s hard to differentiate skill, the credential counts a lot more than in say ortho or neurosurgery

 

[Drwine]

With all of the big money being offered to new grads presently, a fellowship is yours for the asking and academic jobs are easy to get. Go where you will be happy. Your work ethic and passion will shape your career more than where you wet to school or trained.

 

[Katheudontas parateroumen]

Yes, Mayo will open more doors than others. How much more is to be debated but the name Mayo will always be mentioned at the table. That’s just how it goes. It doesn’t mean you won’t get a good job afterward. Obviously the market is very good right now. It’s not hard to find and get a good job. I don’t believe name recognition is any type of tie breaker either. It’s just that if you come from those name brand places it’ll be mentioned and mentioned often.

Once again, name still matters for fellowship. Although critical care isn’t any prestigious place, the usual suspects still apply. Mayo, Stanford, IVYs.