DO gastro

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wjs010

wjs010

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I don't know how the fellowships will work with the new merger, but is it realistic for a DO to go into gastro? Im an incoming student and really like gastro physiology... Just an option for the future. Thanks.
 
Generally people really like gastro procedures/payments but physiology works too.

It is certainly realistic for DOs to match into GI. Just hope you like research.
 
Niviancer said:
Generally people really like gastro procedures/payments but physiology works too.

It is certainly realistic for DOs to match into GI. Just hope you like research.
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Never done true research but will be glad to if needed.. Anything to improve my chances. I actually do like the physiology. I like cardio too but I feel like it's too much ECG .. I probably do have a superficial interest with GI but it's there nevertheless. I'm glad to hear DOs can cut it! I heard the salary is good but not really because of reimbursements.

So any GI route is always 3 yr gen med/ 3 yrs of GI? Thanks a lot for the tip.
 
Yeah it is always 3+3 for GI. DOs have their own fellowships for GI as well (though most are in MI).

Research or some kind of publications are necessary for any of the competitive subspecialties
 
Def possible for DO's to get into ACGME GI. I am a DO about to start ACGME GI fellowship in so cal. Feel free to PM if you have any questions.
 
My GI doc is a DO. N=1 but whatever, it is possible to match GI as a DO. I'm assuming you are going to have to work you butt off (pun intended) just like if you were applying as an MD
 
I have another question for you guys. I have heard a lot of people saying they don't want to shoot for an IM sub and fail and be "stuck" doing general IM. So, do you only get one chance to apply for fellowship or can you switch to say, hospitalist, in the meantime and keep shooting for the fellowship? Thanks a lot for he responses
 
wjs010 said:
I have another question for you guys. I have heard a lot of people saying they don't want to shoot for an IM sub and fail and be "stuck" doing general IM. So, do you only get one chance to apply for fellowship or can you switch to say, hospitalist, in the meantime and keep shooting for the fellowship? Thanks a lot for he responses
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Technically speaking you can apply as many times as you have the money and intact ego to do so.

Practically speaking, you get 2 shots and then you should pack it in.
 
DrBowtie said:
I've seen a couple at various hospitals. Both did chief years at reputable IM places.
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Meaning a 4th year? Good god it takes forever doesn't it
 
DO M4, interested in GI. Assuming as a DO you can match at an ACGME university program with a GI fellowship, does the degree of DO discrimination that exists at the residency level still exist when applying to fellowships (not including the "elite" places)?

I think my chances of matching at a university program are strong given my USMLE score, research, publications, honors on clinical rotations, etc. but not matching into GI makes me nervous.
 
meliora27 said:
DO M4, interested in GI. Assuming as a DO you can match at an ACGME university program with a GI fellowship, does the degree of DO discrimination that exists at the residency level still exist when applying to fellowships (not including the "elite" places)?

I think my chances of matching at a university program are strong given my USMLE score, research, publications, honors on clinical rotations, etc. but not matching into GI makes me nervous.
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Keep up your track record and find those research mentors month 2 into your internship but don't forget to be a good medicine resident first. Don't wait 'until I get through intern year first' to start pressing ahead full steam with projects ..you shouldn't have a problem getting a fellowship.
 
meliora27 said:
DO M4, interested in GI. Assuming as a DO you can match at an ACGME university program with a GI fellowship, does the degree of DO discrimination that exists at the residency level still exist when applying to fellowships (not including the "elite" places)?

I think my chances of matching at a university program are strong given my USMLE score, research, publications, honors on clinical rotations, etc. but not matching into GI makes me nervous.
Click to expand...
Get into the strongest possible medicine residency and work very hard and everything will fall in place.
 
Leo Spaceman said:
Keep up your track record and find those research mentors month 2 into your internship but don't forget to be a good medicine resident first. Don't wait 'until I get through intern year first' to start pressing ahead full steam with projects ..you shouldn't have a problem getting a fellowship.
Click to expand...

ROBINHO said:
Get into the strongest possible medicine residency and work very hard and everything will fall in place.
Click to expand...

Spoken like 2 people who have no idea what they are talking about. Tell that to all of the MDs that did not match GI last year.
 
IM2GI said:
Spoken like 2 people who have no idea what they are talking about. Tell that to all of the MDs that did not match GI last year.
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Are u saying the strength of the residency program doesn't help?
For a medical student who wants to be competitive in any field ' his or her first foremost goal is to do well in in med school and get into a very strong residency program. I don't have to be a gi fellow to figure that out. As to whether it guarantees a 100 percent gi match in future is a moot point at this level of the op's training. And since u are the only person who knows how to get into gi why don't u spill out your grand plan to the op?
 
IM2GI said:
Spoken like 2 people who have no idea what they are talking about. Tell that to all of the MDs that did not match GI last year.
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Ditto.... Last year's match, 4% of GI, 5% of ID, 7.5% of PCCM, 5.5% Cards, 5.2% of hemeonc were DO matches. That's 19 DOs last year. If a DO is really good, goes to a decent Uni program, works their respective *@#$ off, builds contact, there's no reason to be pessimistic about matching into GI. My program has a VERY decent GI fellowship, and I know of at least 2 DOs matching through the 3 years I've been in residency. I don't see how your feigned pragmatism is helpful.
 
ROBINHO said:
Are u saying the strength of the residency program doesn't help?
For a medical student who wants to be competitive in any field ' his or her first foremost goal is to do well in in med school and get into a very strong residency program. I don't have to be a gi fellow to figure that out. As to whether it guarantees a 100 percent gi match in future is a moot point at this level of the op's training. And since u are the only person who knows how to get into gi why don't u spill out your grand plan to the op?
Click to expand...

Of course it does, but I could not tell you the "top 5" DO programs in the country, and I bet most GI PDs could not either.

Are there DOs that match GI? Of course, but you need to have a backup plan, and be OK with practicing gen med if it does not work out. Is this guy one of the best 20 DOs in the country, and have the connections to pull off a match? I don't know, but to say "things will work out" and he "shouldn't have a problem" is blind optimism.

More GI spots go to IMGs than go do DOs.

There are only 325 clinical GI spots in the country. Add in research tracks and you get to 433.

http://gi.org/fellows-in-training/gi-fellowship-match/#statistics

In comparison, there are 2,427 cardiology spots.

http://www.cardiosource.org/en/Prac...-and-Practice-Solutions/Workforce-Trends.aspx

I don't want to discourage anyone. The same generic advice holds true to any applicant, work hard, be a good resident, do productive research, and go to the best program you can. You also need to be prepared, and understand the reality of the challenge.
 
IM2GI said:
Of course it does, but I could not tell you the "top 5" DO programs in the country, and I bet most GI PDs could not either.

Are there DOs that match GI? Of course, but you need to have a backup plan, and be OK with practicing gen med if it does not work out. Is this guy one of the best 20 DOs in the country, and have the connections to pull off a match? I don't know, but to say "things will work out" and he "shouldn't have a problem" is blind optimism.

More GI spots go to IMGs than go do DOs.

There are only 325 clinical GI spots in the country. Add in research tracks and you get to 433.

http://gi.org/fellows-in-training/gi-fellowship-match/#statistics

In comparison, there are 2,427 cardiology spots.

http://www.cardiosource.org/en/Prac...-and-Practice-Solutions/Workforce-Trends.aspx

I don't want to discourage anyone. The same generic advice holds true to any applicant, work hard, be a good resident, do productive research, and go to the best program you can. You also need to be prepared, and understand the reality of the challenge.
Click to expand...

your post is based on assumption that he will go to a DO residency. I said he should go to the strongest residency possible and that includes allopathic residency. If he goes to a strong residency and he works his butt off he has a chance. That is a fact that everybody knows but might not come naturally to a med student ? It's fine u prefer to paint the pessimistic view to somebody who just entered medical school and needs some kind of motivation to achieve his or her goals but being condescending to other peoples views unless it makes u feel better in an Internet forum, is uncalled for !!!!
 
IM2GI said:
Of course it does, but I could not tell you the "top 5" DO programs in the country, and I bet most GI PDs could not either.

Are there DOs that match GI? Of course, but you need to have a backup plan, and be OK with practicing gen med if it does not work out. Is this guy one of the best 20 DOs in the country, and have the connections to pull off a match? I don't know, but to say "things will work out" and he "shouldn't have a problem" is blind optimism.

More GI spots go to IMGs than go do DOs.

There are only 325 clinical GI spots in the country. Add in research tracks and you get to 433.

http://gi.org/fellows-in-training/gi-fellowship-match/#statistics

In comparison, there are 2,427 cardiology spots.

http://www.cardiosource.org/en/Prac...-and-Practice-Solutions/Workforce-Trends.aspx

I don't want to discourage anyone. The same generic advice holds true to any applicant, work hard, be a good resident, do productive research, and go to the best program you can. You also need to be prepared, and understand the reality of the challenge.
Click to expand...
If you seriously think there are >2400 cardiology spots yearly, I want some of what you're smoking. That would be almost half of internal medicine residents going on to cardiology. That 2,400 number is equal to the number of cardiology fellows total, counting all three years. You also understated the number of GI spots.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...gram-NRMP-Results-and-Data-SMS-2014-Final.pdf quite easily confirms in Table 1 there were, in 2014, 800 spots in cardiology and 461 spots in gastroenterology. DOs do only make up a reasonably small proportion of the applicant pool and reviewing the charting outcomes for the specialties matching service does show they match at a lower rate, but that data is on the older side. Don't overstate your case regardless.
 
Raryn said:
If you seriously think there are >2400 cardiology spots yearly, I want some of what you're smoking. That would be almost half of internal medicine residents going on to cardiology. That 2,400 number is equal to the number of cardiology fellows total, counting all three years. You also understated the number of GI spots.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...gram-NRMP-Results-and-Data-SMS-2014-Final.pdf quite easily confirms in Table 1 there were, in 2014, 800 spots in cardiology and 461 spots in gastroenterology. DOs do only make up a reasonably small proportion of the applicant pool and reviewing the charting outcomes for the specialties matching service does show they match at a lower rate, but that data is on the older side. Don't overstate your case regardless.
Click to expand...

Thanks, 800 was the number that I recalled, but the ACC site said 2400. Not sure where that number comes from.
 
Raryn said:
If you seriously think there are >2400 cardiology spots yearly, I want some of what you're smoking. That would be almost half of internal medicine residents going on to cardiology. That 2,400 number is equal to the number of cardiology fellows total, counting all three years. You also understated the number of GI spots.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...gram-NRMP-Results-and-Data-SMS-2014-Final.pdf quite easily confirms in Table 1 there were, in 2014, 800 spots in cardiology and 461 spots in gastroenterology. DOs do only make up a reasonably small proportion of the applicant pool and reviewing the charting outcomes for the specialties matching service does show they match at a lower rate, but that data is on the older side. Don't overstate your case regardless.
Click to expand...

IM2GI said:
Of course it does, but I could not tell you the "top 5" DO programs in the country, and I bet most GI PDs could not either.

Are there DOs that match GI? Of course, but you need to have a backup plan, and be OK with practicing gen med if it does not work out. Is this guy one of the best 20 DOs in the country, and have the connections to pull off a match? I don't know, but to say "things will work out" and he "shouldn't have a problem" is blind optimism.

More GI spots go to IMGs than go do DOs.

There are only 325 clinical GI spots in the country. Add in research tracks and you get to 433.

http://gi.org/fellows-in-training/gi-fellowship-match/#statistics

In comparison, there are 2,427 cardiology spots.

http://www.cardiosource.org/en/Prac...-and-Practice-Solutions/Workforce-Trends.aspx

I don't want to discourage anyone. The same generic advice holds true to any applicant, work hard, be a good resident, do productive research, and go to the best program you can. You also need to be prepared, and understand the reality of the challenge.
Click to expand...

Le sigh, ze cat's whiskers! Cards = 800 spots/year, GI = 461 spots/year and yet the % of these spots going to DO grads are not that far off... 5.5% v/s 4% . http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...gram-NRMP-Results-and-Data-SMS-2014-Final.pdf Table 1, Page 6
Also see page 8 of the report, 80% of DOs applying for fellowship matched. This is almost the same as US MDs and way higher than US IMGs and non US IMGs. I have no vested interest in the op matching, I'm a US IMG applying to a different specialty, but I've seen enough to know that success is 75% if not 99% perspiration.
 
Leo Spaceman said:
Le sigh, ze cat's whiskers! Cards = 800 spots/year, GI = 461 spots/year and yet the % of these spots going to DO grads are not that far off... 5.5% v/s 4% . http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...gram-NRMP-Results-and-Data-SMS-2014-Final.pdf Table 1, Page 6
Also see page 8 of the report, 80% of DOs applying for fellowship matched. This is almost the same as US MDs and way higher than US IMGs and non US IMGs. I have no vested interest in the op matching, I'm a US IMG applying to a different specialty, but I've seen enough to know that success is 75% if not 99% perspiration.
Click to expand...

Way to quote the same exact document and the same exact numbers I did.

If only there were a different document that broke down the applicants to each specialty by US MD/DO/IMG/FMG and their success rates, rather than just extrapolating based on a proportion of applicants to all fellowships, most of which are radically different. It may be a few years old, but it's still the gold standard for data. For GI, please see page 50 (internal page numbering)/page 55 (PDF)
 
Raryn said:
Way to quote the same exact document and the same exact numbers I did.

If only there were a different document that broke down the applicants to each specialty by US MD/DO/IMG/FMG and their success rates, rather than just extrapolating based on a proportion of applicants to all fellowships, most of which are radically different. It may be a few years old, but it's still the gold standard for data. For GI, please see page 50 (internal page numbering)/page 55 (PDF)
Click to expand...
Apologies your highness for not noticing the details of YOUR post...
 
Do many DO students applying for GI fellowship take USMLE step 3? I'm a 4th year DO student planning on GI fellowship and I just want to make sure I do everything I can to have a strong application when it comes time to apply for fellowship.
 
no you do not have to take USMLE step 3
 
Do you need to do an AOA IM residency in order to apply for AOA gas fellowships?
 
So there's no way to do an ACGMe IM and then apply to both AOA and ACGME GI?
 
It is possible.. Ive seen it done
 
wjs010 said:
So there's no way to do an ACGMe IM and then apply to both AOA and ACGME GI?
Click to expand...

Yes there is...at my DO school I worked with DO GI and cards fellows who had gone to ACGME IM programs.
 
AlteredScale said:
@nycscope do have any opinions of the difficulty of DO's entering GI fellowship?
Click to expand...

Thanks for tagging me to this post.

First and foremost, I had the pleasure of working with some outstanding doctors in my residency class who were DO. I am glad that the mainstream perception of DO is that it is becoming a much more known entity to the layperson whose notion of what a doctor "should" be is colored by television shows titled "Doctor ABC, MD."

Although the landscape may be changing as more and more PDs are from the "younger" crowd (read that as late 30s-late 40s), Medicine is still an Old Boys' Club in many respects. With that comes the mindset of MD being a more "consistent" product than DO...mind you, I think it's nonsense...there are studs and duds in both degree camps.

I would think of it as akin to US foreign grad in perception by many programs out there, and all it really comes down to is product branding. Lots of people want a Fender guitar because they know what they are getting...fewer will take a chance on a custom guitar. That custom can either blow you away because of the craftsmanship and playability, or it can be a total dud and a money pit.

I think it takes the right DO candidate at the right program with the right PD to have a successful DO match...and that means that many DO candidates' races are just a bit further than many of their MD counterparts. I think it will remain this way until testing becomes standardized to both fields...I know DO's CAN take the Steps, but there are a good number who choose not to, which ends up hurting them in the end because they can't be "directly" compared to more standardized, palatable MD candidates.
 
nycscope said:
Thanks for tagging me to this post.

First and foremost, I had the pleasure of working with some outstanding doctors in my residency class who were DO. I am glad that the mainstream perception of DO is that it is becoming a much more known entity to the layperson whose notion of what a doctor "should" be is colored by television shows titled "Doctor ABC, MD."

Although the landscape may be changing as more and more PDs are from the "younger" crowd (read that as late 30s-late 40s), Medicine is still an Old Boys' Club in many respects. With that comes the mindset of MD being a more "consistent" product than DO...mind you, I think it's nonsense...there are studs and duds in both degree camps.

I would think of it as akin to US foreign grad in perception by many programs out there, and all it really comes down to is product branding. Lots of people want a Fender guitar because they know what they are getting...fewer will take a chance on a custom guitar. That custom can either blow you away because of the craftsmanship and playability, or it can be a total dud and a money pit.

I think it takes the right DO candidate at the right program with the right PD to have a successful DO match...and that means that many DO candidates' races are just a bit further than many of their MD counterparts. I think it will remain this way until testing becomes standardized to both fields...I know DO's CAN take the Steps, but there are a good number who choose not to, which ends up hurting them in the end because they can't be "directly" compared to more standardized, palatable MD candidates.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for this awesome explanation. I'm really digging the guitar analogy, I was just practicing for a set this coming Thursday.

Was wondering if it'd be alright to PM you some of my specific questions in regards to the process?
 
Oops. I meant that a DO from my ACGME IM program graduated and went to a DO GI fellowship
 
nycscope said:
Stats over the last few years show roughly 20 DOs a year doing GI of the available 450ish spots.
Click to expand...

Do you also know how many DO students, as well as total students applied for these 450 spots? Thank You in advance.
 
Question. I'm the OP, and I'm still interested in GI. I still dont have much exposure though. I am interested in 3 things: Derm, GI, and hospitalist. For DO Derm, I am forced to go to an AOA approved internship to apply to derm. So, lets say I pick a "dual-accredited" program as intern year. If I end up not applying or failing to match into Derm, is it possible to get into a decent university ACGME IM program (to give myself a decent shot in case I would like to do a fellowship)? I hope this makes sense, maybe I can simplify it: 1. I'm at an AOA/ACGME program as an intern because I have to be. 2. I didn't get in/don't want to keep pursuing Derm. 3. Now I'm still an intern but need to get into a decent IM program for the 2nd year of residency. Technically I wouldn't be a "categorical" IM applicant fresh out of 4th year, so would it be possible to get that ACGME program still for a decent shot at fellowship?

yea i know, I'm in a massive pickle
 
MADD!!! said:
Do you also know how many DO students, as well as total students applied for these 450 spots? Thank You in advance.
Click to expand...

Students? You mean residents right?

I believe I asked @nycscope this once but I don't believe the numbers are stratified (in the way of applicants vs. matched) between MD and DO beyond just saying how many matched. It would def be an important state to have now for sure.
 
@MADD!!! @AlteredScale
2011 data from the 2013 Charting Outcomes report reconstructed from page 53
MD 251 of 320 78%
DO 16 of 48 33%
US-IMG 26 of 81 32%
IMG 68 of 197 35%

If you look at Step 1 Scores
US MD under 210 still has a 50% chance of matching, which is as good as an IMG with a 230-240+. No DO numbers but they are likely similar to the IMG #s
 
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