If everything else checks out, yes it’s possible.
I posted all of this info when I matched 4 years ago and made a thread on matching gen Surg as a DO. I think the link is still floating around here somewhere
Found it, the advice still applies
I am a long-time lurker of SDN and recently matched DO into General Surgery. I’ve wanted to make an account and do this thread for a while and to do it in the same vein as
this thread on orthopedics and
this thread on EM. There are a lot of incorrect rumors and statements I’ve seen on Reddit and SDN over the years about DO's applying to surgery and I hope that my experience can help future DO surgery applicants. This will be slanted towards matching MD programs, but I will comment on the DO side of things as well.
I don’t post my stats and invites to brag. I do so that people can compare and see what is possible for a DO General Surgery applicant and hopefully go on to have their own successful cycles. I like to think of myself as a pretty successful medical student but I am not a superstar by any stretch of the imagination. I did however, spend years constructing what I believe to be a very well rounded and targeted General Surgery application (this is key, more on that later).
So here goes:
Stats:
USMLE Step 1: 240-245
USMLE Step 2: 250-255
Comlex 1: 570-600
Comlex 2: 670-700
Comlex PE: Heh
GPA ~3.3
Rank: ~50/100
Publications: 9 (all original research, no case reports)
Presentations: 4
Letters: One from local PD, one from Vice Chair of my local program, one from an adjunct faculty attending at the local program, and one from my research PI.
Applications:
Number auditions: 1 (thanks Big Rona)
Number of DO programs applied to: 16
Number of MD programs applied to: 111
Interviews:
Number of DO interviews: 10 (cancelled 4)
Number of MD interviews: 15 (cancelled 2)
Total interviews attended: 19
Ranks: 19
Matched #1
I know people will ask, so the MD places I was invited to interview at were:
University of Nebraska
University of Kansas
University of Missouri-Columbia
East Carolina/Vidant
Western Michigan
Beaumont Royal Oak
UTH San Antonio
UTMB
Southern Illinois U
Medical College of Georgia
Mount Carmel Health
St. Elizabeth Youngstown
HCA Arlington
HCA Kingwood
Menorah Medical Center in KC
MD Stuff:
1. So when all was said and done I felt like my application cycle was really similar to the app cycles of the average applicants from low tier MD schools and I 100% attribute this to having a
very well-rounded application. To put it simply, on paper my application looked like an MD app. I cannot stress enough how important I believe this to be for any DO applying surgery with aspirations of matching an MD program. The alternative is to absolutely murder boards. After you go on enough interviews you start to see the same people over and over, and I’ve come to find out the other DO’s I repeatedly saw on my interviews all had very high USMLE scores, far above mine. In another testament of the power of a well-rounded application, I know other DO GS applicants with
below average USMLE scores who got similar number of interviews as I did and also got university level invites. The trick was their apps were also very well rounded with great letters, some research output, and having both a Step 1 and Step 2.
2. if you have any desire at all to be considered for MD surgery you need to take USMLE. Both Step 1 and Step 2. There are even former DO programs now that will not interview COMLEX only applicants. With USMLE S1 going P/F it is even more crucial, as it will now be extremely easy for PDs to filter out anyone without a Pass. In their eyes the only reason a DO wouldn’t take Step is because you didn’t think you’d pass. End of story. I’m sure someone will have some outlier anecdote, but this is the reality at this point in time. It’s also important to have a Step 2 score before apps go out. Some applicants this year got very few invites at first, and then once they uploaded their Step 2 score they started coming in. Some PD’s will straight up ask you why you haven’t taken Step 2 yet, and if you plan on taking it.
2b. USMLE scores do matter, but they aren’t the end of the world. If you can put out an average USMLE score, or even 5-8 points below average, you are still very much in the hunt for a GS position if you are smart with your apps. To give some concrete numbers, I would suggest aiming for 230+ on Step 1 (until P/F), and 240+ on Step 2, but if you are in the bin below each of those numbers I wouldn’t give up hope, I would just have a plan in place in case you don’t match (or you can apply to a non-competitive back up).
3. apply broadly. If you place yourself in geographic constraints you need to decide if you really want to be a surgeon or not. Because if you limit your apps then your risk of not matching increases significantly. I personally would not recommend applying to anything less than 80 programs for any DO GS applicant. Unfortunately, the DO bias is still there in surgery, and it can be difficult to predict which programs will give you an interview. I got invites to place I hadn’t thought anything about other than when I clicked the box in ERAS, and I got ghosted by programs I thought I was a shoe-in for. This year some very good applicants were sweating bullets come rank list time because they got cocky and only applied to 40-50 programs, and only ended up having 5ish ranks. Trust me, you don’t want to be in that position.
4. only do aways at MD places if you are really wanting a specific program or trying to get a letter out of the month. In MD General Surgery away rotations are NOT used in the same way as DO auditions. Only 1/33 GS applicants match to a program where they did an away, and it is very common for people to rotate somewhere and then get ghosted for an interview. This obviously changes if you are really gunning for somewhere specific. Then have at it and go try and wow the crap out of them. Letters can be a good reason to do an away, as an academic MD letter can go a long way at other academic programs.
5. research is important to MD programs. You don’t need to have a lot of actual publications, but if you can get even 1-2 actual pubs and then a bunch of posters and stuff that will go a long way. Pretty much every MD applicant has some crappy research output on their app, so if you are the DO with nothing it’s going to hurt you. Even people with solid scores were hurt this year because that’s all they had going for them on their apps. This goes back to point 1, you need to look well rounded. Research really helps.
6. the straightforward reality is that the DO bias in MD Surgery programs is still very much alive. Even the best applicants will have a ceiling on how high they can climb on the MD ladder. Mayo took 2 DO’s this year, Case Western took their first ever, UC Irvine, LSU-S, MUSC, Missouri, and Hennepin County are some of the more notable DO GS matches this year. Notice that pretty much none of those are considered top tier. Mayo is the most elite on paper, but has some aspects of their program that aren’t for everyone and are one of the only top tier programs that has ever taken a DO, UW has had 1 or 2 match with them in the last few years. There are some DO’s at some true powerhouses, but they did not match there and found their way in through a prelim and other long and difficult avenues. UTSW, Utah, and Emory are 3 that come to mind fitting this mold. Do not expect to be them. The other academic matches I’ve seen have all been to places that have some sort of history of considering DO’s, most often fairly regularly. The point is that it is totally fine to apply to these top places, but you need to realistically expect to not travel past the mid-tier level, even if you are a superstar. That’s ok, there are some really great surgery programs out there that will give you a fair shake and treat you well.
DO Stuff:
1. The merger has been very beneficial to the DO surgery programs. Unfortunately, the AOA allowed some programs to exist that honestly were pretty terrible all around. Now that they at least have to meet ACGME minimums the quality has increased. Some of the better DO programs are now pretty similar to community MD programs. Some programs still have a long-ways to go and barely hit ACGME minimums and struggle both with quantity and variety of case load. For comparison most MD programs far surpass ACGME minimums.
2. Stats for DO programs are hit and miss. Some DO programs are very board heavy and want COMLEX 600+ or something really close to it. Others straight up don’t care about them at all and will rank you based solely on the audition. Auditions are still king, even for the programs that are board heavy, and you will be expected to rotate for the DO programs to really give you serious consideration. It was actually really irritating this year as most DO programs still only truly considered auditioners, and with COVID restrictions a lot of applicants were turned off by that since it showed some programs don’t give a crap about applicants at all. Stuff like that made me wonder how some programs actually treat their residents if that’s how they treat applicants during a pandemic. Oh, and research doesn’t really matter for DO programs. Sure, it will be nice to have something, but auditions and boards will be by far the most important aspect.
Speaking of boards, it is important to really recognize that some programs are technically “former DO” programs but aren’t really DO programs. A rule of thumb is that if a program is newer, is HCA, or is largely run by MDs then they most likely will not favor a DO applicant. Now I don’t know of any former AOA program that completely ignores DO’s, but some programs like Sky Ridge and Swedish in Denver now functionally require USMLE of DO applicants and already have MDs in them. They will interview and take applicants who haven’t rotated just as fast as someone who has.
In closing, the knowledge I gained from reading and learning of the experiences from those ahead of me was absolutely critical in preparing for my own application cycle. I would not have had the success I had without it. I hope I can pass that on and my experiences help future DO GS applicants, because, well, surgery is the best specialty. My DMs are always open.
