Do good med students generally make good doctors?

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no, the really poor med students are the ones who make awesome doctors... 🙄
 
What do you mean by a good med student? Like good at the test taking or good at actually applying it in a clinical setting?
 
What do you mean by a good med student?
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Also, what do you mean by "good doctors?" I'm going to assume that you're talking about students who perform well on their tests making competent doctors. In general, the answer would be "yes" since most people who graduate med school become competent doctors. Are they more competent than the people they scored higher than in school? It's probably a wash.
 
A very convoluted question. For some patients , a "good doctor" means they connect well, are understanding & empathetic, don't make the patient feel rushed or unwanted, and have sufficient competence. For other patients, a "good doctor" is all about achieving the best outcome possible, and they don't care if the guy or gal is an arrogant ass. If you ask colleagues, its very field dependent. What are bunch of family practice docs will say it takes to be a "great" family practice physician is a very different skill set than what a bunch of surgeons will say it takes to be a "great" surgeon. Same with an academic setting, where publication is highly coveted, versus a community setting, where competency and efficiency are of higher importance.

Where does academics fit it? Probably somewhere, but its not as simple as "top of the class make the best docs". Success in academics can reflect desire and innate intelligence, which are beneficial factors for certain qualities of a "good doctor," but not for others.
 
Ive heard that:
top of the class - good teachers
middle - good clinicians
bottom - will make the most money

but who knows?
 
vasca said:
The med students that graduate with the ighest grades are usually mostly hooting for administrative job positions and don't want to be clinical doctors or only want to do lifestyle specialties.

Average students are usually the best clinical doctors. Usually there's things needed to be a good doctor that a multiple choice test can't grade. I'm personally really good at getting useful information for history charts in really short amounts of time. I'm also good at the few invasive procedures I know to do and suturing fast which are things you can't learn to be good at in a classroom setting.

Plus at my university (and probably the same with most mexican universities), people with really good grades cheat a lot.
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I would really appreciate it if you state that you are in mexico and your medical system is completely dfferent everytime you post.
 
vasca said:
The med students that graduate with the ighest grades are usually mostly hooting for administrative job positions and don't want to be clinical doctors or only want to do lifestyle specialties.

Average students are usually the best clinical doctors. Usually there's things needed to be a good doctor that a multiple choice test can't grade. I'm personally really good at getting useful information for history charts in really short amounts of time. I'm also good at the few invasive procedures I know to do and suturing fast which are things you can't learn to be good at in a classroom setting.

Plus at my university (and probably the same with most mexican universities), people with really good grades cheat a lot.
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Where the heck did you get that statement from??

And I'm saying that as an "average" student (at the moment), btw. That just seems completely baseless...

There is just no reason to think that students who get the highest grades somehow perform below average in a clinical setting. Wishful thinking on the part of average/below average students, anyone? 🙄

Also, I would think the scholastically "best" students would probably make the best diagnosticians for rare disorders or complex cases that require actual "thinking"... as opposed to some of the day-to-day common diagnoses that don't require much reasoning (and requires more in the way of experience).

So it totally depends on the specialty and what you mean by "best"... I WILL say that in terms of surgery, I think there's perhaps less of a correlation between the ability to score well on tests (i.e. good grades) and "performance". Since surgery is such a physical specialty, physical aptitude & dexterity really play into the specialty in a way that is typically NOT measured during med school courses...
 
I am basing this on a few assumptions...
Good Students does not mean good doctors.
The key difference is found in being a student versus a doctor.
Student job = read, have no life, read, have no life, take exams...
Doctors = have no life, practice medicine....

Personal experiences
I have gone to a dermatologist once and he was horrible. Completely disrespectful and does not understand patient privacy. And I bet he had top USMLE scores and blah and blah on his CV.

I have shadowed a cardiologist that was AMAZING. He was very upbeat and had a healing aura.

I work in a clinic in which the doctor is in family practice. She is now about 70 yr. old and her practice style is HORRIBLE. She is very brief, ignorant of how it feels like to be a patient at a younger age, and has an ego-trip (bet you didn't expect that one ?). I have had patients tell me how horrible she is because she did not listen and just wanted blah, blah test ordered.
 
Humbleness MD said:
I am basing this on a few assumptions...
Good Students does not mean good doctors.
The key difference is found in being a student versus a doctor.
Student job = read, have no life, read, have no life, take exams...
Doctors = have no life, practice medicine....

Personal experiences
I have gone to a dermatologist once and he was horrible. Completely disrespectful and does not understand patient privacy. And I bet he had top USMLE scores and blah and blah on his CV.

I have shadowed a cardiologist that was AMAZING. He was very upbeat and had a healing aura.

I work in a clinic in which the doctor is in family practice. She is now about 70 yr. old and her practice style is HORRIBLE. She is very brief, ignorant of how it feels like to be a patient at a younger age, and has an ego-trip (bet you didn't expect that one ?). I have had patients tell me how horrible she is because she did not listen and just wanted blah, blah test ordered.
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It's unclear what the OP meant by "good doctor". You interpret it to mean having a good bedside manner - what the heck is a healing aura, btw? - but most would take it to mean a competent clinician.
 
Read the title. I did say assumptions.
Based on certain assumptions....

And healing aura refers to being a human being who cares to actually listen to their patients. Not necessarily competent physician. You can be competent and get the correct dx but if you don't know how to be a people person then you are not a great physician which happens alot.
You will be surprised to know it does NOT truly take a compassionate human being to get into medicine. Good GPA and decent MCAT will get you in...
I don't know if this has happened to you before, but you know when you go into a doctors office and you can get the vibe of how the clinic is maintained by the secretarys and how everyone is interacting you can kinda tell if the health care is good or not.
 
What annoys me is that many people tend to think that the two are mutually exclusive. That an excellent student can't also have great bedside manner and good clinical judgment. It's almost as if mediocre med students like to make themselves feel better by saying "well I may have crappy grades (for whatever reason) but gosh darn it people will like me way better than those stupid gunners." Most of the folks who do really well (in my school at least) also happen to be cool people with great personalities with whom most of us get along well. Of course there's the occasional awkward wtf is wrong with you guy or girl, but I think that personality isn't just limited to high achievers.

/rant
 
Bill Gates didn't finish college and was never really a good student but look where he is now.
 
AggieSean said:
What annoys me is that many people tend to think that the two are mutually exclusive. That an excellent student can't also have great bedside manner and good clinical judgment. It's almost as if mediocre med students like to make themselves feel better by saying "well I may have crappy grades (for whatever reason) but gosh darn it people will like me way better than those stupid gunners." Most of the folks who do really well (in my school at least) also happen to be cool people with great personalities with whom most of us get along well. Of course there's the occasional awkward wtf is wrong with you guy or girl, but I think that personality isn't just limited to high achievers.

/rant
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Agreed.
 
There is no such thing as a good doctor. There is only the doctor that sux less. The goal in medicine is to just do the F job. Get the meat sorted, you won't get a clap on your shoulders for it. Even in academics, there is no real means to prove how able YOU are, as there is way too much BS and luck playing a role. Typically, single people with personality disorders embark on a journey to prove themselves in academics, and just turn out to be miserable. Forget about being a good doctor, and smile smugly knowing that the top of the class guys have gotten it all wrong, you can rake in $$$ by just passing exams. I met a top of the class dude in his 60s, and he wasn't doin nuffin impressive, just a regular high-up there. I can't tell one from the other. I have no idea if the surgeon on the other side of the table was hardly able to pass her math exams, or aced every exam in astrophysics as a pre-med. If the latter, again, just smile, cos SHE is the one wasting her talent. loool.
 
regularnihilist said:
there is no such thing as a good doctor. There is only the doctor that sux less. The goal in medicine is to just do the f job. Get the meat sorted, you won't get a clap on your shoulders for it. Even in academics, there is no real means to prove how able you are, as there is way too much bs and luck playing a role. Typically, single people with personality disorders embark on a journey to prove themselves in academics, and just turn out to be miserable. Forget about being a good doctor, and smile smugly knowing that the top of the class guys have gotten it all wrong, you can rake in $$$ by just passing exams. I met a top of the class dude in his 60s, and he wasn't doin nuffin impressive, just a regular high-up there. I can't tell one from the other. I have no idea if the surgeon on the other side of the table was hardly able to pass her math exams, or aced every exam in astrophysics as a pre-med. If the latter, again, just smile, cos she is the one wasting her talent. Loool.
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wtf?
 
RegularNihilist said:
There is no such thing as a good doctor. There is only the doctor that sux less. The goal in medicine is to just do the F job. Get the meat sorted, you won't get a clap on your shoulders for it. Even in academics, there is no real means to prove how able YOU are, as there is way too much BS and luck playing a role. Typically, single people with personality disorders embark on a journey to prove themselves in academics, and just turn out to be miserable. Forget about being a good doctor, and smile smugly knowing that the top of the class guys have gotten it all wrong, you can rake in $$$ by just passing exams. I met a top of the class dude in his 60s, and he wasn't doin nuffin impressive, just a regular high-up there. I can't tell one from the other. I have no idea if the surgeon on the other side of the table was hardly able to pass her math exams, or aced every exam in astrophysics as a pre-med. If the latter, again, just smile, cos SHE is the one wasting her talent. loool.
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I hope you get bitch-slapped for your ranting.
 
RegularNihilist said:
There is no such thing as a good doctor. There is only the doctor that sux less. The goal in medicine is to just do the F job. Get the meat sorted, you won't get a clap on your shoulders for it. Even in academics, there is no real means to prove how able YOU are, as there is way too much BS and luck playing a role. Typically, single people with personality disorders embark on a journey to prove themselves in academics, and just turn out to be miserable. Forget about being a good doctor, and smile smugly knowing that the top of the class guys have gotten it all wrong, you can rake in $$$ by just passing exams. I met a top of the class dude in his 60s, and he wasn't doin nuffin impressive, just a regular high-up there. I can't tell one from the other. I have no idea if the surgeon on the other side of the table was hardly able to pass her math exams, or aced every exam in astrophysics as a pre-med. If the latter, again, just smile, cos SHE is the one wasting her talent. loool.
Click to expand...

cookie-monster-wtf-is-this.jpg
 
most of the good med students AOA, that sort dont do very well clinically there are exceptions of course because they are lookingto make things difficult. The doctors with the most amount of common sense are the ones who are the best...
 
docONcall said:
Bill Gates didn't finish college and was never really a good student but look where he is now.
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That's not really true. He did manage to get into Harvard.

edit: Wiki says "Gates graduated from Lakeside School in 1973. He scored 1590 out of 1600 on the SAT[18] and subsequently enrolled at Harvard College in the fall of 1973.[19] Prior to the mid-1990s, an SAT score of 1590 corresponded roughly to an IQ of 170,[20] a figure that has been cited frequently by the press."
 
maceo said:
most of the good med students AOA, that sort dont do very well clinically there are exceptions of course because they are lookingto make things difficult. The doctors with the most amount of common sense are the ones who are the best...
Click to expand...

Common sense is not as common as people think it is.
 
maceo said:
most of the good med students AOA, that sort dont do very well clinically there are exceptions of course because they are lookingto make things difficult. The doctors with the most amount of common sense are the ones who are the best...
Click to expand...

Do you have any evidence to back this up? It's exactly these kind of sweeping generalizations that irk me. And I disagree that common sense = good doctor. You can have all the common sense in the world but if you're a jerk, a tool, or an idiot it won't matter.

Sorry for the semi-hijacking.
 
maceo said:
most of the good med students AOA, that sort dont do very well clinically there are exceptions of course because they are lookingto make things difficult. The doctors with the most amount of common sense are the ones who are the best...
Click to expand...

Oh I guess I better stop trying so hard in med school and honoring my courses huh?
😕😕😕😕😕
 
maceo said:
most of the good med students AOA, that sort dont do very well clinically there are exceptions of course because they are lookingto make things difficult. The doctors with the most amount of common sense are the ones who are the best...
Click to expand...

Right, and that's why residency directors try to weed out the good AOA students and only rank the ones with "common sense".
 
AggieSean said:
Do you have any evidence to back this up? It's exactly these kind of sweeping generalizations that irk me. And I disagree that common sense = good doctor. You can have all the common sense in the world but if you're a jerk, a tool, or an idiot it won't matter.

Sorry for the semi-hijacking.
Click to expand...

Look I work with jerkoffs doctors everyday. thats my evidence. Most of the jerkoffs are the ones who were AOA They are slow ass surgeons, they take too long to make a decision they are pompous and arrogant.. the mediiocre medical students are the surgeons who can work with two instruments and say lets get er done. and they do They dont fuss about stuff that doesnt matter
 
maceo said:
Look I work with jerkoffs doctors everyday. thats my evidence. Most of the jerkoffs are the ones who were AOA They are slow ass surgeons, they take too long to make a decision they are pompous and arrogant.. the mediiocre medical students are the surgeons who can work with two instruments and say lets get er done. and they do They dont fuss about stuff that doesnt matter
Click to expand...

Ya know... I think I'd rather have my surgeon take their time making decisions and "fuss" about stuff, rather than say "let's get'er done" :idea:

...Crazy as that might seem.
 
Look I work with jerkoffs doctors everyday. thats my evidence. Most of the jerkoffs are the ones who were AOA They are slow ass surgeons, they take too long to make a decision they are pompous and arrogant.. the mediiocre medical students are the surgeons who can work with two instruments and say lets get er done. and they do They dont fuss about stuff that doesnt matter
Click to expand...
I'd be curious to see a comparison of the averages morbidity and mortality for the jerkoffs vs. the get 'er done crowd.
 
if you're not arguing about $hit that doesn't matter gtfo this thread
 
now then, the literature is clear that if you are honoring coursewrok there is a 90% chance that you are autistic or gay or some other ghastly brain affliction
 
Sorry guys wrong window.

 
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The terms "good," "mediocre," "great" medical students are such subjective terms considering the majority of students do well in med school. How do you define those terms? Compared to the average of tests? Median? That would be very disconcerting considering the average/median of my class in every test and module are in the high 80s/low 90s.
 
I'm sure there are a few outliers who are terrible at taking exams but great at clinic, or great at exams but super awkward in the hospital (ok there are a lot of these) but I think the vast majority of good med students are that way because they have something inside them that makes them be rockstars, no matter what they do. And they'll always be like that, they will work really hard for boards just like they'll work hard on wards. Later on they'll always work hard and have high-expectations for their careers, which will lead to becoming competent physicians. work ethic, good habits, etc..
 
MilkmanAl said:
Also, what do you mean by "good doctors?" I'm going to assume that you're talking about students who perform well on their tests making competent doctors. In general, the answer would be "yes" since most people who graduate med school become competent doctors. Are they more competent than the people they scored higher than in school? It's probably a wash.
Click to expand...

In most cases, the measure of "good doctor" comes from patient perceptions. In such case, medical school grades have no real relevance, and so, no, I'd say there is no correlation between good med students and good doctors. There will be folks who patients perceive as good doctors in both the top and bottom of the class. Which is why there are folks perceived as good and bad in every specialty, regardless of how competitive.
 
J DUB said:
I think the ones that make good docs are the ones that can apply the knowledge that they learned in class to the clinical setting.

Treating patients is not all black and white like a multiple choice test!!
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So true!- [Ill say it like this-In medicine what's obvious is not always obvious..] 👍
 
KeyzerSoze said:
It's unclear what the OP meant by "good doctor". You interpret it to mean having a good bedside manner - what the heck is a healing aura, btw? - but most would take it to mean a competent clinician.
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Hint: In this medical arena the "most conscientious" know that the ultimate regardless of the percs and money is to be a "healer" [classical, complimentary, alternative, how ever you want to do it!!]:luck:
 
maceo said:
most of the good med students AOA, that sort dont do very well clinically there are exceptions of course because they are lookingto make things difficult. The doctors with the most amount of common sense are the ones who are the best...
Click to expand...

So true.. And as I got older I found out that common sense is NOT that common!👍
 
mjl1717 said:
Hint: In this medical arena the "most conscientious" know that the ultimate regardless of the percs and money is to be a "healer" [classical, complimentary, alternative, how ever you want to do it!!]:luck:
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but I'm completely unable to parse that statement. What are you trying to say?
 
It all depends on what you consider a good student and a good doctor. Your first 2 years of medical school are completely different than yur last 2 years so being "good" in either one of those phases does not necessarilly translate to being a "good doctor".

I don't think success as a medical student guarantees success as a phyisican. Now I do believe there are exceptions for the better and worse but med school students and practicing physicians are two different jobs.
 
A smart doc once advised us that you can only diagnose what you know, so the more you know, the more options you have to weed through in your DDx. Fortunately for those of us that don't know everything (or anything), most pts will have the same cookie cutter problems that can be dealt with based on experience that comes from seeing the same thing again and again throughout your training.

Most physicians are competent. Those that aren't probably have some psychosocial/moral background that is lacking, more so than lack of medical knowledge. No EBM for this though; just personal opinion.
 
KeyzerSoze said:
I'm sorry, but I'm completely unable to parse that statement. What are you trying to say?
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Ok, here are some examples..

1)a healer is a step or probably a few steps beyond a physician...
(the regular physician is small potatoes here)

2)A healer can make a blind man see..

3)A healer can make a crippled man walk normally..

4)A healer is beyond most human scope, so I wont say much more about this..

In my previous post I meant conventional medicine instead of classical medicine...

Also its the weekend. 😉
 
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I go to a DO school with a tiny class size, so we know exactly who the first and second year rockstars are. One kid in particular exemplifies most of the top 10 or so at my school (with a few exceptions):

1. Consistently nailed 90+ on some pretty ridiculous immuno, micro, path, and biochem/genetics exams taught by some pretty intense phd's or md/phd's at our school (people that had mostly only taught phd students in their past lives).
2. Homeboy lives about two miles away from school (with mom and dad)
3. Spends most every non-academic moment "gaming"
4. Cracked >250 on the USMLE
5. Is clueless on the wards. CLUELESS. Gets shredded on a daily basis by attendings that don't know "who" he is when presenting patients. He's the classic example of someone that works really hard over the course of the first two years, blows off simulated patients, rocks the boards, and then goes on a mental health break during the clinical years.

In his defense, I will say he has some schizoid personality features and a few ticks here and there that don't really help the situation. He's shooting for rads.

Based on my observations, the more average students tend to really step up their game during 3rd and 4th year. Given that they're average rather than poor students, and their basic sciences foundation is solid, they tend to shine at the end of the day.
 
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