Do grades matter in a PhD program?

[shirleymanson]

1st year student in a PhD clinical psych program. I've heard multiple times from 2nd and 3rd years that "grades don't matter." Has anyone else heard this? I don't even know what that means. They don't matter as in they are not as important as in undergrad or don't matter in the grand scheme of internships? I can't imagine why they wouldn't matter. Does anyone have any insight into this statement? Thx

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[thewesternsky]

Basically, by the time you get to internship, there will be other indicators-- primarily your practica experiences, APPIC essays, and letters of reference (plus publications, arguably to a far lesser extent)-- which will all matter much more than grades. You don't want to fail anything or be put on academic probation, of course, but there's little sense in putting in hours and hours to achieve an A+ rather than an A. Your time is better spent elsewhere.

 

[Pragma]

At a lot of places, as long as you are getting Bs there is no problem.

Usually people say this to help you break the habit of overstudying for classes, because what is really important in a PhD program is to develop strong research skills and make progress on your thesis. But some people are so obsessed with getting As that they spend tons of time on coursework and get behind on the stuff that really matters.

It doesn't mean classes don't matter at all. But if you have to choose between studying to get an A on a social psychology exam and making progress on your thesis - make progress on your thesis and take the A- or B+ or whatever instead (Note: That is a real life example from my experience 😀).

Now, disclaimer - courses may matter if you have fellowships or other things where your GPA will be examined. Some jobs will look at your transcripts too. But I have never once been asked my graduate GPA. I'd imagine it only matters if it is lower than your program requires - then you're in trouble. Another word of advice - do well in classes taught by people that you might do work with or in classes that you ought to do well in. It would be pretty stupid to get a B in research methods if you want to be a researcher, for example...that could raise an eyebrow.

 

[shirleymanson]

I feel like I just had an "aha" moment...thanks for clarifying for me, guys!

 

[HomeworkHelper]

I would consider having a conversation with your advisor about the extent to which you will want to focus on grades. I had this conversation with my advisor my first year, and he told me "Shoot for B- and focus on your research." This really helped me feel a lot better about letting up on focusing on grades, especially since before I had always been a straight A kind of student. Also, then your advisor will know that lower grades are due to explicit efforts to spent more time on other domains (like research or clinical work) and not due to a lack of ability on your part. Also, you can ask if there is any reason to shoot for certain kinds of grades. A few years into my program, they added a few alternative options to our usual comprehensive exams that you could only choose if you had received certain grades in classes. While I missed out on this because I wasn't focusing on grades (as my advisor and I had agreed upon), for newer students coming in I'm sure a conversation about grade expectations would have helped them decide whether they wanted to shoot for slightly higher grades or not.

 

[psycguy85]

B's make PhDs.

 

[bmedclinic]

IMO grades dont matter all that much. Yeah, you have to make B's in your core classes... but honestly, if you get in you likely have the ability to do it. By the time you're applying for internship you will likely have enough "other" courses (practicum, etc) that go into your GPA as easy 1 hr courses that your GPA will be inflated. I'm a poor student in my personal opinion, and I have a high 3.8 something. To be honest, were it not for internship, I wouldnt have ever even checked my grades to see what they were (it was asked for APPIC).

I highly suspect that my low UG GPA effected my internship matching, at least at one site.. but that's a different story for a different time.

 

[HomeworkHelper]

By the time you're applying for internship you will likely have enough "other" courses (practicum, etc) that go into your GPA as easy 1 hr courses that your GPA will be inflated.

While I still agree that GPA does not matter, it's not universal that "other" courses related to practicum or research will inflate your GPA. In our program, everything that is not a typical course (such as practicum) is graded as pass/fail and does not affect your GPA.

 

[PsySeeker]

I highly suspect that my low UG GPA effected my internship matching, at least at one site.. but that's a different story for a different time.

How does your undergraduate GPA affect your internship matching? Is it heavily weighted in that process? (It hadn't occurred to me it was even a factor at that point).

 

[psychRA]

How does your undergraduate GPA affect your internship matching? Is it heavily weighted in that process? (It hadn't occurred to me it was even a factor at that point).

It probably varies a lot. Only one of the sites I applied to requested undergrad transcripts. I believe you do list your undergrad GPA on the APPI, but with the sheer volume of applicant information available to sites, taking the time to look at undergrad GPA seems like a poor use of reviewers' time.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

It probably varies a lot. Only one of the sites I applied to requested undergrad transcripts. I believe you do list your undergrad GPA on the APPI, but with the sheer volume of applicant information available to sites, taking the time to look at undergrad GPA seems like a poor use of reviewers' time.

I'm not sure if UG GPA is on the APPI, but there definitely are sites that request undergrad transcripts. I didn't apply to any of said sites, however, in large part for that reason (it was one of the factors I used near the end to whittle down my application list).

 

[bmedclinic]

How does your undergraduate GPA affect your internship matching? Is it heavily weighted in that process? (It hadn't occurred to me it was even a factor at that point).

I wouldnt have thought it'd matter.
But I'll tell you what I know. I went in to meet with the chief of MH at one VA I interviewed with. As I sat down, I saw my APPI on that person's desk, and my undergrad GPA was circled! (It was a 2.8, I had a lot of growing up to do my first two years of college, admittedly). Anyways, this person got their doctoral degree at my UG institution, and discussed this with me (I already knew that since I'd done my homework) and towards the end of our time together said something to the effect of "Well, I'm sure you'll match somewhere." Ok, well-- listen, I matched at my 8th place anyways, so clearly I did SOMETHING wrong when interviewing, even though prior feedback told me I was a good interviewer. But I highly suspect my UG GPA was involved since it was circled. Was kinda hoping they'd ask me about it so I had a chance to explain.

 

[bmedclinic]

I'm not sure if UG GPA is on the APPI, but there definitely are sites that request undergrad transcripts. I didn't apply to any of said sites, however, in large part for that reason (it was one of the factors I used near the end to whittle down my application list).

As that is clearly the weak link of my whole application, I'll confidently tell you-- it is on the APPI. If it werent, well.. yeah...

 

[bmedclinic]

While I still agree that GPA does not matter, it's not universal that "other" courses related to practicum or research will inflate your GPA. In our program, everything that is not a typical course (such as practicum) is graded as pass/fail and does not affect your GPA.

Truthfully, it probably should be that way. Good for your program. I think it's pretty dumb that my program counts practicum as an A that actually feeds into GPA.

 

[Pragma]

Truthfully, it probably should be that way. Good for your program. I think it's pretty dumb that my program counts practicum as an A that actually feeds into GPA.

Yeah that sounds pretty questionable to me.

My program did give use grades for dissertation credits - so I suppose that could be considered a similar thing. but never for any practicum, seminar, etc. Only actual courses with graded work.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Yeah that sounds pretty questionable to me.

My program did give use grades for dissertation credits - so I suppose that could be considered a similar thing. but never for any practicum, seminar, etc. Only actual courses with graded work.

Interestingly enough, I think my program was the opposite--we received pass/fail grades for research, dissertation/thesis hours, and the like, but practicums were letter grades. My thinking is that maybe the profs felt as though sometimes it would be warranted to give students a B if they were in need of some remediation but hadn't completely bumbled things clinically (and thereby warranting a failure).

Edit: That, or maybe there's some university-wide stipulation that a certain number or proportion of degree hours must be letter grades rather than pass/fail.

 

[bmedclinic]

On second thought.. I dont really know how we do it, to be fair. When was the last time I looked at my grades.. not sure. Pretty sure my program is pass/fail for research though and letter grades for externship/practicum type experiences.

 

[psychRA]

I'm not sure if UG GPA is on the APPI, but there definitely are sites that request undergrad transcripts. I didn't apply to any of said sites, however, in large part for that reason (it was one of the factors I used near the end to whittle down my application list).

It's on the APPI. Which makes it extra irritating when sites request UG transcripts, in my opinion.

 

[Pragma]

It's on the APPI. Which makes it extra irritating when sites request UG transcripts, in my opinion.

You know, everyone complains about that. At most places it is so easy to obtain your transcript these days. I remember in the past having to make a phone call and pay to have them mailed somewhere. Now you can often get them electronically.

If the "annoyed" part of it is because you didn't like your UG GPA, okay - but having a transcript sent is really not difficult.

 

[bmedclinic]

If the "annoyed" part of it is because you didn't like your UG GPA, okay - but having a transcript sent is really not difficult.

That's it for me. I love my UG and am glad I went there... But at this point in my life, my largest strike against me is my immaturity at 19 (not in general, only as it relates to coursework completely irrelevant to my abilities now).

 

[psychRA]

You know, everyone complains about that. At most places it is so easy to obtain your transcript these days. I remember in the past having to make a phone call and pay to have them mailed somewhere. Now you can often get them electronically.

If the "annoyed" part of it is because you didn't like your UG GPA, okay - but having a transcript sent is really not difficult.

I was not a psych major in undergrad. To make up for this, I took night classes while working full time. In order to cover the prereqs in the evenings within a reasonable period of time (1-2 years), I took classes through multiple universities in the city where I lived, because no one institution offered the all of the courses I needed.

To get my transcripts, I had to submit written requests to several different universities. Since I moved several time zones away for grad school, I sent those requests via snail mail, and then had to stalk a couple of those Registrar's offices by phone to make sure that they actually followed up. And I paid for each copy of each transcript. Was it the end of the world? No, it really wasn't. However, I found it annoying to have to go through that process at the internship level, when I had already completed 5 years of graduate school and established solid clinical training and research productivity.

It sounds like it was "really not difficult" for you to get your UG transcripts, but I'm not attempting to speak on your behalf, and I don't think that you should be speaking on mine. Speculating about my GPA was also unnecessary.

 

[Pragma]

I was not a psych major in undergrad. To make up for this, I took night classes while working full time. In order to cover the prereqs in the evenings within a reasonable period of time (1-2 years), I took classes through multiple universities in the city where I lived, because no one institution offered the all of the courses I needed.

To get my transcripts, I had to submit written requests to several different universities. Since I moved several time zones away for grad school, I sent those requests via snail mail, and then had to stalk a couple of those Registrar's offices by phone to make sure that they actually followed up. And I paid for each copy of each transcript. Was it the end of the world? No, it really wasn't. However, I found it annoying to have to go through that process at the internship level, when I had already completed 5 years of graduate school and established solid clinical training and research productivity.

It sounds like it was "really not difficult" for you to get your UG transcripts, but I'm not attempting to speak on your behalf, and I don't think that you should be speaking on mine. Speculating on my GPA was also unnecessary.

It is just my opinion. I'm not speaking on anyone's behalf - nor do I see how you would possibly come to that conclusion. I went to multiple institutions for UG as well. I didn't speculate about any one person's GPA - it was a comment trying to acknowledge perhaps another reason that people might not want to get their transcipts aside from the process of actually requesting them.

Personally, I found the entire AAPI annoying. I guess I just don't see what is so especially annoying about getting UG transcripts. I'd personally much rather do that than count hours that people fudge on and mean nothing.

I also am a person with a low tolerance for complaining, period. So i'm sorry that you don't like it that I don't like it when people complain about UG transcripts - but I don't like it. 😀

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'm in the multi-UG institution boat as well. I actually had to physically drive to 2 or 3 different campuses to be sure that everything was received and sent out on time. After two rounds of that for grad school, I developed an intense aversive reaction to the mentioning of UG transcripts. Thus, when it came to internship, while I briefly entertained a couple places that required transcripts, I ultimately decided that while it was fine for some sites to ask for them, it was also fine for me to simply not apply to said sites. It subsequently also helped me whittle down my list from around 20 to 16-ish, which I'd been having trouble doing.

 

[Pragma]

I'm in the multi-UG institution boat as well. I actually had to physically drive to 2 or 3 different campuses to be sure that everything was received and sent out on time. After two rounds of that for grad school, I developed an intense aversive reaction to the mentioning of UG transcripts. Thus, when it came to internship, while I briefly entertained a couple places that required transcripts, I ultimately decided that while it was fine for some sites to ask for them, it was also fine for me to simply not apply to said sites. It subsequently also helped me whittle down my list from around 20 to 16-ish, which I'd been having trouble doing.

Did they really require you to physically go there? Wow. I guess that would be more than annoying - just the cost of travel alone. That's just archaic.

I made two phone calls. I had to do it far in advance to be sure I got them in time, but that is no different than graduate transcripts either.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Did they really require you to physically go there? Wow. I guess that would be more than annoying - just the cost of travel alone. That's just archaic.

I made two phone calls. I had to do it far in advance to be sure I got them in time, but that is no different than graduate transcripts either.

I want to say at least one of the places required me to physically show up (as I lived in state, although about an hour away), while the others might have just strongly suggested it. I honestly didn't even check if I could've requested them online for internship, although yeah, I would've been shocked had that one institution in particular still required that I go there in person despite then having lived 3 states away.

 

[Pragma]

I want to say at least one of the places required me to physically show up (as I lived in state, although about an hour away), while the others might have just strongly suggested it. I honestly didn't even check if I could've requested them online for internship, although yeah, I would've been shocked had that one institution in particular still required that I go there in person despite then having lived 3 states away.

I mean, we do have a postal service...if they haven't heard of the internet, they should at least know how to mail a sealed letter...

Side note - at my graduate institution, you can get formal transcripts electronically within the hour. They email it to you or whoever you want to receive it. Even at 3 AM.

 

[psychRA]

It is just my opinion. I'm not speaking on anyone's behalf - nor do I see how you would possibly come to that conclusion.

How is "Having a transcript sent is really not difficult" not speaking for others? You were making a broad statement about how simple the process is (according to you). You then speculated that "if the "annoyed" part of it is because you didn't like your UG GPA, okay," which seemed like a direct response to my comment, especially since you chose to quote my post. Do you not see why I took offense?

Not trying to derail the thread. This just rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[Pragma]

How is "Having a transcript sent is really not difficult" not speaking for others? You were making a broad statement about how simple the process is (according to you). You then speculated that "if the "annoyed" part of it is because you didn't like your UG GPA, okay," which seemed like a direct response to my comment, especially since you chose to quote my post. Do you not see why I took offense?

Not trying to derail the thread. This just rubbed me the wrong way.

Some people take offense really easily.

Honestly, I saw your comment and replied about the general issue.

Sorry if it rubbed you the wrong way. I don't see how saying "having a transcript sent is really not difficult" somehow means that I was "speaking for you." There was zero intention of insulting you personally. I actually had to go back and check the initial post to see if it was even you I responded to. I just was commenting about transcripts broadly. I actually added in the statement about GPA after I had already posted, because I assumed someone would mention that if you weren't happy with your grades then the process would be frustrating. I was trying to limit my critiques about complaints chiefly to the process of calling or going online to request your transcripts.

I guess I'll amend my statement though to say that if your undergraduate institution requires your physical presence in order to obtain a transcript, then I can see how that would be incredibly frustrating.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I mean, we do have a postal service...if they haven't heard of the internet, they should at least know how to mail a sealed letter...

Side note - at my graduate institution, you can get formal transcripts electronically within the hour. They email it to you or whoever you want to receive it. Even at 3 AM.

Yeah, nowadays that seems to be how most places are (my grad institution is the same). My experiences above were umpteen years ago during my first go at applying to graduate programs, though. The internet was of course still around, but programs didn't have nearly the same level of support for it then as they do now.

As for the postal service, I'm thinking that they might have implied that forms tend to get lost very frequently when mailed, and thus they strongly recommended requesting in person. Only being an hour away, I figured that was my best bet.

 

[PsySeeker]

If one has an exceptionally good UG GPA would this actually help you to match? That would be nice lol

 

[cara susanna]

I doubt it, since most people admitted into clinical psych programs have stellar GPAs.

 

[LPPSYD]

I'm not sure if UG GPA is on the APPI, but there definitely are sites that request undergrad transcripts. I didn't apply to any of said sites, however, in large part for that reason (it was one of the factors I used near the end to whittle down my application list).

I checked the APPIC guidelines because this thread had me a little confused and I knew I remembered reading this somewhere (from appic.org):

"Undergraduate transcripts are no longer allowed as a supplemental upload but programs may request a copy AFTER the match for appointment reasons. Some universities will not separate the undergraduate transcripts from the graduate transcripts and these are permissible."

I'm guessing sites were allowed to request those at some point but they were not during the 2012-2013 application period. Although it's just occurring to me now that since they asked for our undergrad GPAs they might as well have the transcript to see what's accounting for one that's on the low side.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I checked the APPIC guidelines because this thread had me a little confused and I knew I remembered reading this somewhere (from appic.org):

"Undergraduate transcripts are no longer allowed as a supplemental upload but programs may request a copy AFTER the match for appointment reasons. Some universities will not separate the undergraduate transcripts from the graduate transcripts and these are permissible."

I'm guessing sites were allowed to request those at some point but they were not during the 2012-2013 application period. Although it's just occurring to me now that since they asked for our undergrad GPAs they might as well have the transcript to see what's accounting for one that's on the low side.

Yes, they were definitely allowed to request these as supplemental materials during my application cycle. Interesting to hear that it changed last year.

 

[thewesternsky]

Although it's just occurring to me now that since they asked for our undergrad GPAs they might as well have the transcript to see what's accounting for one that's on the low side.

I agree... I'm kind of glad that one of my grad institutions is the same as my undergrad, because at least now they will have my transcript and they won't just see my 3.4 GPA. They'll also see (if they bother to look) that it's driven by some Cs in my first and second year in math and physics courses, and that I always excelled in psych and biology classes.

I'm actually baffled that UG GPA matters at all, since for people who went to Ph.D. programs there's likely very little meaningful range in it. I'm guessing the little range that exists mostly reflects what people did in their first two years in UG (ages 18-19, mostly!).

 

[cara susanna]

Oh good, I'm glad that it changed. My UG GPA is fine but I don't want to have to pay more money for transcripts.

 

[WisNeuro]

For the most part, grades matter somewhat in grad school, but mostly only if you are consistently getting the minimum passing, or are actually failing things. We do look at grad GPA in internship and postdoc selection, although other things are given much more weight. Essentially, make sure to have some A's in with those B's. Also, if you are getting lower grades in clinical practicums, that also may raise an eyebrow when applying for clinical internships or postdocs.

 

[bmedclinic]

I'm actually baffled that UG GPA matters at all, since for people who went to Ph.D. programs there's likely very little meaningful range in it. I'm guessing the little range that exists mostly reflects what people did in their first two years in UG (ages 18-19, mostly!).

Ditto.
Some of us had a really hard time when we started college (I was 17 then) making it to that 8 AM Chemistry class in the snow. At 17, the motivation just wasnt there yet-- that was a lot of the growing up I did at 19.. Why is undergrad GPA even on there? Seems completely irrelevant.

 

[Pragma]

I'm actually baffled that UG GPA matters at all, since for people who went to Ph.D. programs there's likely very little meaningful range in it. I'm guessing the little range that exists mostly reflects what people did in their first two years in UG (ages 18-19, mostly!).

Ditto.
Some of us had a really hard time when we started college (I was 17 then) making it to that 8 AM Chemistry class in the snow. At 17, the motivation just wasnt there yet-- that was a lot of the growing up I did at 19.. Why is undergrad GPA even on there? Seems completely irrelevant.

Personally, I think UG GPA is almost completely meaningless. At many institutions, grade inflation is ridiculous so anything that isn't a really high GPA is suspect. But then there are legitimate reasons that people can get a lower GPA too - but sadly you are stuck qualifying your reasons for why as so many students have really high GPAs.

 

[paramour]

B's make PhDs.

This is the mantra of one of our profs: "B=PhD." Granted, I think he used it just to get people off his back when he gave them a B. 👍

The only time they ever frowned is if you received an overall course grade of a C. I think you were out after 2.

 

[paramour]

Ditto.
Some of us had a really hard time when we started college (I was 17 then) making it to that 8 AM Chemistry class in the snow. At 17, the motivation just wasnt there yet-- that was a lot of the growing up I did at 19.. Why is undergrad GPA even on there? Seems completely irrelevant.

Mine was a 7:00 AM bio class. Who the hell holds class at 7AM (and what ******* student decides "yeah, I can make that, no problem!")?

 

[Pragma]

Mine was a 7:00 AM bio class. Who the hell holds class at 7AM (and what ******* student decides "yeah, I can make that, no problem!")?

Just had a flashback to being 17 and having 7AM advanced calculus during my first semester. 😉

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Just had a flashback to being 17 and having 7AM advanced calculus during my first semester. 😉

Ditto to that, although that was my second semester. First semester was only "regular" calc, followed closely by gen chem. Ahh, good times.

 

[serotonin]

I had to submit undergrad transcripts as part of some of my post doc apps!

I had a pretty bad undergrad GPA, too. These are grades I received 15 years ago!!! But I don't think they figured in too much to things.