Do I take calc II?

[lolzilla]

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About four years ago during my undergrad in business I took "Business Calculus" (easy version of calculus) and got an A. Recently as a post-bacc student I took Calculus I and also got an A. Should I take Calculus II or have I met the math requirements for med school?

If I'm not required to take it, would it make me more competitive if I do anyway?

 

[mauberley]

About four years ago during my undergrad in business I took "Business Calculus" (easy version of calculus) and got an A. Recently as a post-bacc student I took Calculus I and also got an A. Should I take Calculus II or have I met the math requirements for med school?

If I'm not required to take it, would it make me more competitive if I do anyway?

You should be more than fine, but you should check the requirements for each individual school. I don't think calculus is more than a "recommended" course for any but a handful of top schools.

As far as your application's competitiveness, I would guess that it impacts your application very little.

 

[MD Odyssey]

Let me weigh in here on the merits of the actual subject material. Calculus II is typically considered the most difficult of the calculus sequence. It's the first course which introduces the concepts of sequences, infinite series, Taylor and MacLaurin series, and a few other topics which are huge in the field of analysis.

Personally, I tend to believe that more science education is better than less, so I wouldn't avoid a class just because it isn't on any of your school's list of requirements. Studying calculus will enrich your life, just like studying scores of other courses will. There is more to the world than just pre-medical studies - take some time to check it out. You'll be the better for it.

 

[TriagePreMed]

No, do not. I'm also tempted to do this and must remind myself that there's no point on gambling my GPA over a course that I don't need.

 

[liveoak]

absolutely not. calc 2 is worthless for application (diff/eq much more relevant), and by far the hardest math class of the regulars. (diff/eg, calc 3...etc..)

 

[UpwardTrend]

I agree with the above posters. Not worth the risk. Adcoms would probably rather see upper level Bio courses if you need more hours.

 

[Bluesun]

Taking more science/math classes than required is not a bad thing. Having said that, Calc II is traditionally a difficult class. I personally enjoyed it, but out of the three calculus classes, it is the most difficult and the majority of my classmates struggled to some degree or another.

If you're truly interested in it though, I say go for it, but don't take the class lightly. As MD Odyssey pointed out, it's your first exposure to infinite series and other very cool (albeit challenging) concepts. It also opens the door to Calc III (multivariable calculus) and differential equations, which are both truly fascinating. As an engineer, I use the knowledge I acquired from these classes more often than you probably think, especially when it comes to signal processing.

I think you can take linear algebra without calc II, but I could be wrong. That's another very cool subject, and arguably easier than calc II.

 

[MedWonk]

I love math, so my knee-jerk reaction would be to say yes; but really, you should check the requirements of each individual school. The majority of schools do not require calculus, but most do recommend taking at least a semester (which you have covered). More and more schools are also recommending taking a semester of statistics. So, depending on what schools you plan on applying to, you may or may not have to take additional math courses.

If, say, you apply to Harvard, you'll need the extra semester of calc (or a semester of calc-based physics). OTOH, your state school probably has no such requirement and just recommends you take at least a semester of calc.

Of the schools I plan to apply to, 5 require at least one semester of calc, and of those 5, only 2 want two semesters. This is far less than half the schools I plan on applying to. So, if you're not crazy about math like I am and you're not applying to any schools that require a second semester, then I would forgo the extra semester of calc and take some upper-level bio instead, or maybe stats, or use the extra time to so some research. Or maybe some hardcore MCAT prep if you're coming up on your test date.

 

[Autarkeia]

I agree with the others. Calculus is a very enriching experience start to finish, but unless math and physics are hobbies of yours, your time is probably better spent elsewhere.

Statistics is another matter. I personally can't stand it, but will be very useful to you and some schools require it on top of one semester of calc (UCLA comes to mind).

 

[LegendaryPunk]

Based on what I've learned from these forums, taking calc II / III will not give you any real advantage in regards to adcoms looking at your application. The typical adcom will care very little, if at all, that you took these extra courses; same with taking calc-physics over regular physics.

Whether or not it's worth the GPA gamble to take these extra courses for fun is up to you. I'm all for furthering ones education beyond the minimum requirements, but at the same time, don't forget you are essentially playing a game in regards to building your med school app. Pick your battles wisely.

 

[MD Odyssey]

I think you can take linear algebra without calc II, but I could be wrong. That's another very cool subject, and arguably easier than calc II.

Typically, linear algebra courses do not require infinite series or things like that. Calc I usually suffices.

As far as difficulty goes, it's probably a bit more difficult than a second semester calculus course, since your professor will most likely assume you have learned to write proofs. Linear algebra is a completely different side of mathematics and many students struggle with it because, since they first learned to count, math has been about calculating things. Linear algebra, particularly if it's taught from the perspective of a mathematician, will place little emphasis upon calculations and more emphasis upon proofs, theorems, and lemmas.

 

[MD Odyssey]

I agree with the others. Calculus is a very enriching experience start to finish, but unless math and physics are hobbies of yours, your time is probably better spent elsewhere.

Statistics is another matter. I personally can't stand it, but will be very useful to you and some schools require it on top of one semester of calc (UCLA comes to mind).

A good, rigorous statistics course will definitely require the material covered in an second semester calculus course. Since most physicians have no idea how to use statistics, the OP might consider this, particularly if he / she has an interest in research someday.

 

[lolzilla]

You guys make some great points, I should probably pass on calc II.

With regard to statistics my school offers "biostatistics" which is geared toward premeds, I'll look into that.

 

[MD Odyssey]

You guys make some great points, I should probably pass on calc II.

With regard to statistics my school offers "biostatistics" which is geared toward premeds, I'll look into that.

Biostatistics is typically a really weak course because most premeds have very little background in mathematics. If you've taken elementary calculus, you should really look into a formal, rigorous statistics course. You will likely be bored out of your skull in biostatistics.

 

[Autarkeia]

A good, rigorous statistics course will definitely require the material covered in an second semester calculus course. Since most physicians have no idea how to use statistics, the OP might consider this, particularly if he / she has an interest in research someday.

Really? Please explain. (I tutored someone in business stats, so my exposure is pretty limited. And it has been ten years since my calc courses, but doesn't first semester cover summation, differentiation and integration?)

 

[MD Odyssey]

Really? Please explain. (I tutored someone in business stats, so my exposure is pretty limited. And it has been ten years since my calc courses, but doesn't first semester cover summation, differentiation and integration?)

Sadly, first-semester calculus no longer covers most of the topics that it used to because most students entering the course do not have the necessary preparation. Courses proceed at a much slower rate now than they did 15-20 years ago. A typical first-semester course covers functions, limits, continuity, basic differentiation, and usually a short introduction to integration. In particular, integration is only covered at a rudimentary level, leaving the more in-depth approach for later courses.

The reason that I say a second-semester course is needed for a good statistics course is because of the reliance upon integration. Granted, my perspective on what constitutes a "rigorous" mathematics course is probably different than most people. I suspect most people on these forums will cite statistics as more important and recommend the OP take stats instead of calculus.

 

[Nate9862]

I'm a bit of a math nerd, and I always say to take more math than you need. Why not take Calc II? It's really not that bad, actually. I'm 3/4 of the way through Calc II and it's a breeze, you just need to study, like anything else. Plus, it makes you sharper overall and REALLY solidifies your algebra skills. Once you can form a 6-7th order taylor/maclaurin polynomial without a calculator your algebra skills have progressed signifcantly. Honestly, the only time I loose points is algebra mistakes because the concepts - I don't think - are that hard. Although I must say, my professor is outstanding so that helps quite a bit.

 

[MD Odyssey]

I'm a bit of a math nerd, and I always say to take more math than you need. Why not take Calc II? It's really not that bad, actually. I'm 3/4 of the way through Calc II and it's a breeze, you just need to study, like anything else. Plus, it makes you sharper overall and REALLY solidifies your algebra skills. Once you can form a 6-7th order taylor/maclaurin polynomial without a calculator your algebra skills have progressed signifcantly. Honestly, the only time I loose points is algebra mistakes because the concepts - I don't think - are that hard. Although I must say, my professor is outstanding so that helps quite a bit.

This is correct. There is a significant "widening" of your horizons that occurs during the calculus sequence.

To be completely frank, I have a hard time accepting anyone as a scientist that isn't well-grounded in basic mathematics and science. And a full calculus sequence is the bare minimum for a basic mathematical background. If you've never studied the full-sequence of the calculus, you have no business considering yourself to be a scientist.

Let's face it. Without a rigorous exposure to differential and integral calculus, you remain trapped in the past, 450 years ago. This alone ought to make it clear - are you really comfortable with a mathematical sophistication that is almost a half a millenia old?

 

[mauberley]

This is correct. There is a significant "widening" of your horizons that occurs during the calculus sequence.

To be completely frank, I have a hard time accepting anyone as a scientist that isn't well-grounded in basic mathematics and science. And a full calculus sequence is the bare minimum for a basic mathematical background. If you've never studied the full-sequence of the calculus, you have no business considering yourself to be a scientist.

Let's face it. Without a rigorous exposure to differential and integral calculus, you remain trapped in the past, 450 years ago. This alone ought to make it clear - are you really comfortable with a mathematical sophistication that is almost a half a millenia old?

Depends on one's objectives. I would say that the rigorous exposure you suggest is not necessary for clinical practice. The question of whether it's necessary in order for one to be a scientist I would also debate, but it's irrelevant for the OP.

 

[liveoak]

you don't need anything close to calc 2 for medicine.

ti-89 ftw.

 

[LupaCupcake]

look at your schools requirements

some of the ones I am looking at recommend one calc, one requires a full year of calc😡 ..

it all depends.

I would say if you don't have biochem, take that. That is going to help you more than another calc on the application.

 

[LupaCupcake]

This is correct. There is a significant "widening" of your horizons that occurs during the calculus sequence.

To be completely frank, I have a hard time accepting anyone as a scientist that isn't well-grounded in basic mathematics and science. And a full calculus sequence is the bare minimum for a basic mathematical background. If you've never studied the full-sequence of the calculus, you have no business considering yourself to be a scientist.

Let's face it. Without a rigorous exposure to differential and integral calculus, you remain trapped in the past, 450 years ago. This alone ought to make it clear - are you really comfortable with a mathematical sophistication that is almost a half a millenia old?

Sooooo any current docs that only took calc 1 prior to med school are just not real scientists in your opinion?

 

[Nate9862]

This is correct. There is a significant "widening" of your horizons that occurs during the calculus sequence.

To be completely frank, I have a hard time accepting anyone as a scientist that isn't well-grounded in basic mathematics and science. And a full calculus sequence is the bare minimum for a basic mathematical background. If you've never studied the full-sequence of the calculus, you have no business considering yourself to be a scientist.

Let's face it. Without a rigorous exposure to differential and integral calculus, you remain trapped in the past, 450 years ago. This alone ought to make it clear - are you really comfortable with a mathematical sophistication that is almost a half a millenia old?

I agree with everything said. How do you think those cool equations that solve all of your physics and chemistry problems were derived? Well, differential and integral calculus. In fact, I find it MUCH easier to understand the derivation of equations like kinematics, etc., rather than rout-memorize them in long form and try to apply them.

When I first looked at the prerequisites for becoming a medical doctor, I was utterly shocked at the low math requirement. Oddly, a biochemist with a 4 year degree has more math exposure than a medical doctor... One is qualified to work in a lab, the other is qualified to judge what happens in the lab... strange I think.. I'm not saying every doctor should go through diff equations, but I think a good fundamental understanding of the minimum math sequence should be necessary. Let's face it, there's a lot of garbage in that sequence that people don't just recall on a whim; i.e. test for infinite series, or exotic integrals and integration techniques... but it still provides an understand of the world that I think is relevant.

 

[Nate9862]

Now obviously not EVERY biochemist has more math exposure than a medical doctor, but typical MDs going a pre-med route stop at Calc I, for the most part.

 

[MD Odyssey]

Now obviously not EVERY biochemist has more math exposure than a medical doctor, but typical MDs going a pre-med route stop at Calc I, for the most part.

Understand, I believe that mathematics lies at the basis of all the sciences. A "scientist" without a background in mathematics is little more than an amateur in my book, regardless of the number of letters that lie behind their name. True, a knowledge of calculus and higher order mathematics may be irrelevant to clinical practice, but there is much to being a physician / scientist than that.

That said - premeds are programmed to consider GPA first and education second. I suppose it just depends upon your priorities.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Understand, I believe that mathematics lies at the basis of all the sciences. A "scientist" without a background in mathematics is little more than an amateur in my book, regardless of the number of letters that lie behind their name. True, a knowledge of calculus and higher order mathematics may be irrelevant to clinical practice, but there is much to being a physician / scientist than that.

That said - premeds are programmed to consider GPA first and education second. I suppose it just depends upon your priorities.

Science is a broad field. I wouldn't require the same math from a biologist as for a physicist, yet they are both scientists. Medical schools ask for the math that they feel is necessary to be physician. And either way, do you really expect to remember half the stuff you learn in calculus 20 years down the road?

 

[Bluesun]

I have to side with MD Odyssey here. I can't see someone working as a scientist without a solid understanding of the basic-ish math behind it. I'm not sure that I qualify as a scientist, but I couldn't do my job without a solid understanding of integration (Fourier / Laplace transforms, gamma distribution, etc) -- understanding the overarching concepts if nothing else.

I don't really think this could be argued against. In the realm of research science and applied science, calculus (not just differentiation) is a prerequisite for quite a lot.

 

[LegendaryPunk]

For purposes of my upcoming question: take the average physician, and forget about the labels and letters after their name; don't worry about if they are a "real" scientitst or not, just think about what their job is.

Would that physician be able to do their job significantly better if they had a strong background in higher mathematics?

I'm asking this is hopes of a serious response, as from my (uninformed) point of view, I don't see how. Obviously this is somewhat subjective, based on what one considers a physician's job to be and what it takes to do that job well.

 

[Bluesun]

For purposes of my upcoming question: take the average physician, and forget about the labels and letters after their name; don't worry about if they are a "real" scientitst or not, just think about what their job is.

Would that physician be able to do their job significantly better if they had a strong background in higher mathematics?

I'm asking this is hopes of a serious response, as from my (uninformed) point of view, I don't see how. Obviously this is somewhat subjective, based on what one considers a physician's job to be and what it takes to do that job well.

I would not think so, no -- not for a practicing physician. If you were to do research as a physician, though, the answer would be different.

I'd like to use this opportunity to clarify that I'm not trying to stick to some ideal of what a "real" scientist is or is not, but it's hard to do science without applied mathematics.

 

[mauberley]

Would that physician be able to do their job significantly better if they had a strong background in higher mathematics?

I don't think they would.

 

[n3xa]

Shells and washers can bite me.

But calc III was legit. <3

 

[TriagePreMed]

I don't think they would.

"Patient is having a seizure" "Quick! What's the second derivative of his seizures? "

 

[liveoak]

I'm not sure that I qualify as a scientist, but I couldn't do my job without a solid understanding of integration (Fourier / Laplace transforms, gamma distribution, etc) -- understanding the overarching concepts if nothing else.

I will die a happy man if i never have to see that crap again. 😍

 

[MD Odyssey]

I don't think they would.

Perhaps. But a rigorous background in logic probably wouldn't hurt your practice as a physician either. Plus, there is something to be said for having a certain degree of intellectual curiosity I think.

 

[DrOMG]

"Patient is having a seizure" "Quick! What's the second derivative of his seizures? "

 

[Nasrudin]

Perhaps. But a rigorous background in logic probably wouldn't hurt your practice as a physician either. Plus, there is something to be said for having a certain degree of intellectual curiosity I think.

I have all kinds of intense curiosities. The makings a left hook or rear naked choke. The intracies of a joke that kills. The addiction curing powers of psyllocibin. The fall of the American empire. Apocalyptic science fiction. Sufi literature.

Not one of them is calculus. I get weary of the consistent non-evidenced idea. That we are or should be scientists. Or mathematicians.

Cool for you if you are. It takes all kinds. If we don't share "intellectual" curiosities. All the better for all of us.

 

[mauberley]

Perhaps. But a rigorous background in logic probably wouldn't hurt your practice as a physician either. Plus, there is something to be said for having a certain degree of intellectual curiosity I think.

I have all kinds of intense curiosities. The makings a left hook or rear naked choke. The intracies of a joke that kills. The addiction curing powers of psyllocibin. The fall of the American empire. Apocalyptic science fiction. Sufi literature.

Not one of them is calculus. I get weary of the consistent non-evidenced idea. That we are or should be scientists. Or mathematicians.

Cool for you if you are. It takes all kinds. If we don't share "intellectual" curiosities. All the better for all of us.

^ What Nas said. Logic and intellectual curiosity can be manifested in ways other than mathematical aptitude/pursuits. I dare say this is a form of "diversity" encouraged by medical schools.

 

[k488k488]

About four years ago during my undergrad in business I took "Business Calculus" (easy version of calculus) and got an A. Recently as a post-bacc student I took Calculus I and also got an A. Should I take Calculus II or have I met the math requirements for med school?

If I'm not required to take it, would it make me more competitive if I do anyway?

Grades are everything. It's been about 15 years since I applied to med school, and in my time, Calculus wasn't necessary, even though I have up to Linear Algebra. The most important thing -- grades. If Calculus is an "easy A", then do it and enjoy.

 

[Bluesun]

I have all kinds of intense curiosities. The makings a left hook or rear naked choke. The intracies of a joke that kills. The addiction curing powers of psyllocibin. [...]

Nasrudin, I think you just became one of the coolest people on SDN. 👍

 

[Bernoull]

Lots of good advice already given.

If you truly love math/calculus and want to take it for the fun of it, I would look into calc 3, it's more fun/interesting and easier, if u don't want to take gpa risks... (i found calc 2 is the hardest in the series, even more than ODEs)

Depending on what specialty u're interested in, I can see utility in higher math/physics... i.e. radiology/rad onc. etc.. Granted, one DOesN'T NEED higher math/physics or be a clinician in such fields, however one's appreciation/understanding of the fundamental principles involved will definitely benefit from such background.