DO in a MD field

[kcopphtho]

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I am a second year DO student interested in ophthalmology and getting ready for boards this summer. anyone know if USMLE and COMLEX are both required for most ophtho residencies? I would assume so because the majority of the spots in the country are in historically allopathic programs but i have heard a lot of similar historically allopathic fields are accepting DO students without USMLE. I would rather not spend $1000 on the exams if one wont be required for what I am trying to do. Any opinions/advice would be great thanks!

KCC

 

[kazuma]

I am a second year DO student interested in ophthalmology and getting ready for boards this summer. anyone know if USMLE and COMLEX are both required for most ophtho residencies? I would assume so because the majority of the spots in the country are in historically allopathic programs but i have heard a lot of similar historically allopathic fields are accepting DO students without USMLE. I would rather not spend $1000 on the exams if one wont be required for what I am trying to do. Any opinions/advice would be great thanks!

KCC

There is a recent thread that discusses this in detail. Bottome line, take USMLE 1/2 if you want to be looked at as a serious applicant in the allopathic world. $1000 is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme and a good score will open up doors. You can't afford to not take it if you applying to any reasonably competitive allopathic specialty.

 

[kcopphtho]

There is a recent thread that discusses this in detail. Bottome line, take USMLE 1/2 if you want to be looked at as a serious applicant in the allopathic world. $1000 is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme and a good score will open up doors. You can't afford to not take it if you applying to any reasonably competitive allopathic specialty.

that's what i was thinking i just wanted to get someone's opinion...can you post the link youre referring to?

 

[kazuma]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=881191

 

[JonnyG]

Your chances of getting an allopathic optho spot are pretty much ZERO. the field is almost completely closed to DOs. you should concentrate on boosting your chances at osteopathic programs by doing well on the comlex and doing audition rotations.

 

[DocEspana]

Your chances of getting an allopathic optho spot are pretty much ZERO. the field is almost completely closed to DOs. you should concentrate on boosting your chances at osteopathic programs by doing well on the comlex and doing audition rotations.

It's actually 1%. 13 DOs in allopathic ophtho in a field of 1266 residents.

 

[p1acebo]

It's actually 1%. 13 DOs in allopathic ophtho in a field of 1266 residents.

Lawlz.

 

[DocEspana]

Lawlz.

If he's gonna give odds and percentages, he better hope I don't have the exact figures in my big folder o facts the AMA gives me.

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

Screw that rubbish about having a 0% chance....if you want it....work hard...memorize the first aid for the USMLE like a jihadi memorizes the quran....know it inside out...ROCK the USMLE step1....use Doctors in Training as well as Pass program, get a score greater than 270 (aim for nothing below a 260)....and then tell me how much love you get from allopathic opthalmology programs.....if you want to make it a done deal, take a year off after medical school (in the form of a prelim year) and do solid opthalmo related research (shoot for research at Brigham and Women's or another high powered hospital by doing a prelim year there...publish!!)...DONE DEAL!!

Many of the posters here (who are MD students) will try to discourage you...because of the open competition...they have as much a shot as you do....they know it....that is why you get hate posts like ("you have a ZERO chance")

THINK!!
If there was no open competition, how did a dude from American University of the Antigua land a NEUROSURGERY spot at BROWN...??!?!?!?

He must have ROCK SOLID SCORES...and SOLID research....

Again, don't listen to the MD students (or the DO students who don't want to bust their behind and wanna make excuses) who discourage you from applying.....

http://uncleharvey.com/index.php/wiki/2011_Match_List_for_Neurological_Surgery/

SHOOT FOR THE STARS!!!
Let the haters say whatever they will!!

 

[kazuma]

Screw that rubbish about having a 0% chance....if you want it....work hard...memorize the first aid for the USMLE like a jihadi memorizes the quran....know it inside out...ROCK the USMLE step1....use Doctors in Training as well as Pass program, get a score greater than 270 (aim for nothing below a 260)....and then tell me how much love you get from allopathic opthalmology programs.....if you want to make it a done deal, take a year off after medical school (in the form of a prelim year) and do solid opthalmo related research (shoot for research at Brigham and Women's or another high powered hospital by doing a prelim year there...publish!!)...DONE DEAL!!

Many of the posters here (who are MD students) will try to discourage you...because of the open competition...they have as much a shot as you do....they know it....that is why you get hate posts like ("you have a ZERO chance")

THINK!!
If there was no open competition, how did a dude from American University of the Antigua land a NEUROSURGERY spot at BROWN...??!?!?!?

He must have ROCK SOLID SCORES...and SOLID research....

Again, don't listen to the MD students (or the DO students who don't want to bust their behind and wanna make excuses) who discourage you from applying.....

http://uncleharvey.com/index.php/wiki/2011_Match_List_for_Neurological_Surgery/

SHOOT FOR THE STARS!!!
Let the haters say whatever they will!!

I don't think anyone is trying to be malignant, just realistic. Sure, working hard to attain a high score on the USMLE is never a bad thing, but it would be foolish not to have a backup plan such as the DO ophthalmology match. What happens if he ends up with 1, 2 or even zero allo interviews and hasn't schmoozed any DO programs? Having only 1-2 interviews doesn't leave someone with the greatest odds of matching.

 

[kcopphtho]

thank you for all of your responses...as far as statistics go i could care less. i know what i want and i am going to do all i can to get that. the % of DOs in a field gets washed out by sheer numbers anyway. I plan on taking both the COMLEX and USMLE this summer and I plan on applying to both DO and MD programs, theres just sooo many more MD programs than DO so its slim pickings. as far as it being 1%--->so you're telling me there's a chance?!?!? (and it's better than Lloyd's 1 in a million from Dumb and Dumber from the numbers quoted previously)

 

[bonsaipalmtree]

There's a really nice, motivational thread somewhere here about a DO who matched into ACGME urology. I want to say his/her handle is Proverbs. Maybe take a look at that, if only for some inspiration. It's an uphill battle for sure, but it's possible.

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

I don't think anyone is trying to be malignant, just realistic. Sure, working hard to attain a high score on the USMLE is never a bad thing, but it would be foolish not to have a backup plan such as the DO ophthalmology match. What happens if he ends up with 1, 2 or even zero allo interviews and hasn't schmoozed any DO programs? Having only 1-2 interviews doesn't leave someone with the greatest odds of matching.

If he can get a rock solid score (greater than 270) on step 1 and a similar score on step 2.....I think he will have more than 20 allo interviews........wouldn't be surprised if he ended up at an ivy league program with those scores....
My point is that it depends 90% on his scores....just as it does with US MD grads and foreign MD grads....open competition my dear.....may the best man win!!

 

[gmreed2]

a

 

[El Dooderino]

If he can get a rock solid score (greater than 270) on step 1 and a similar score on step 2.....I think he will have more than 20 allo interviews........wouldn't be surprised if he ended up at an ivy league program with those scores....
My point is that it depends 90% on his scores....just as it does with US MD grads and foreign MD grads....open competition my dear.....may the best man win!!

Oh premeds...

 

[rad0nc]

Oh premeds...

Lol. Here is an older thread about the subject. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=828876

My wife just matched ophtho so I know a little about the process. Basically an MD with a 230 will get 15 interviews. A DO with a 270 would be extremely lucky to get 5. The vast majority of programs screen you out based on the letters behind your name. If you are still a premed, it is MUCH easier to work hard now and get into an allopathic program than bust your butt trying to get a 270.

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

Oh premeds...

Lol. Here is an older thread about the subject. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=828876

My wife just matched ophtho so I know a little about the process. Basically an MD with a 230 will get 15 interviews. A DO with a 270 would be extremely lucky to get 5. The vast majority of programs screen you out based on the letters behind your name. If you are still a premed, it is MUCH easier to work hard now and get into an allopathic program than bust your butt trying to get a 270.

Here come the MD/DO students who want to discourage you either because they want to kill the competition or because they themselves couldn't make it....and there will be more........there will be a lot more.....but my dear, always remember my example.
If a guy from AUA (as an FMG) could match into Neurosurgery at Brown....you can def get allo opthalmo.
http://uncleharvey.com/index.php/wiki/2011_Match_List_for_Neurological_Surgery/

Please ignore these guys, use both DIT and Pass Program for USMLE Step 1, 2. Get solid opthalmo research (at least 1 but preferably more publications) and then tell me how much love allo opthalmo PD's are showing you.....

For the love of Osteopathic Medicine, ignore the haters!!!!

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

Is it a hard process?
Yes

Is it any harder for you than it is for MD's?

NO!!!!
CERTAINLY NO!!!!

Go to the following link to see what happens when you don't study as a US MD student coming in from Harvard Medical.....you end up in a family med program with predominantly carribbean graduates.

http://www.geisinger.edu/Residencies/fam/residents.html


I am referring to resident # 3 in the class of 2014

My point is that nothing is guaranteed....if you go to harvard medical school....bomb the boards....UNDOUBTEDLY...this is what will happen to you

Vice verca, if you go to a DO school....and do what I have advised....you will most likely end up in an Ivy program.

FOR THE LAST TIME.....GETTING INTO A RESIDENCY IS BASED ON OPEN COMPETITION!!!!

 

[El Dooderino]

Is it a hard process?
Yes

Is it any harder for you than it is for MD's?

NO!!!!
CERTAINLY NO!!!!

Go to the following link to see what happens when you don't study as a US MD student coming in from Harvard Medical.....you end up in a family med program with predominantly carribbean graduates.

http://www.geisinger.edu/Residencies/fam/residents.html


I am referring to resident # 3 in the class of 2014

My point is that nothing is guaranteed....if you go to harvard medical school....bomb the boards....UNDOUBTEDLY...this is what will happen to you

Vice verca, if you go to a DO school....and do what I have advised....you will most likely end up in an Ivy program.

FOR THE LAST TIME.....GETTING INTO A RESIDENCY IS BASED ON OPEN COMPETITION!!!!

I already see myself really enjoying this schtick

 

[DrBowtie]

Here come the MD/DO students who want to discourage you either because they want to kill the competition or because they themselves couldn't make it....and there will be more........there will be a lot more.....but my dear, always remember my example.
If a guy from AUA (as an FMG) could match into Neurosurgery at Brown....you can def get allo opthalmo.
http://uncleharvey.com/index.php/wiki/2011_Match_List_for_Neurological_Surgery/

Please ignore these guys, use both DIT and Pass Program for USMLE Step 1, 2. Get solid opthalmo research (at least 1 but preferably more publications) and then tell me how much love allo opthalmo PD's are showing you.....

For the love of Osteopathic Medicine, ignore the haters!!!!

Do you personally know this resident at Brown? His stats?
For all you know he could be the son of the program director or chairman.

Keep banking your own career on a single example.

 

[rad0nc]

For the love of Osteopathic Medicine, ignore the haters!!!!

I love how you call out medical students and then change your status to medical student. You haven't started med school yet, but stay classy

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

Do you personally know this resident at Brown? His stats?
For all you know he could be the son of the program director or chairman.

Keep banking your own career on a single example.

I love how you call out medical students and then change your status to medical student. You haven't started med school yet, but stay classy

lol
You guys talk as if I am throwing him to the wolves.
It's not like my advice is going to kill this guy....even if my advice fails him, he will be in a much much much better position with strong scores on both USMLE and COMLEX (step 1 and step 2).
Strong scores on just the COMLEX are awesome but limit the student's options to AOA residencies....

You never know what will happen until you try.

Also, don't forget how many people transfer to ACGME specialties after completing an ACGME PGY1 (prelim or categorical).

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

I love how you call out medical students and then change your status to medical student. You haven't started med school yet, but stay classy

I may not have physically started medical school...but I have been accepted, and I have the First Aid for Step 1 2011, the DIT study guide, and access to the DIT lectures. I study 12 hours a day (just as DIT recommends) and will be finishing the DIT course 9 days from now. Then I will start Pass program.
I will have finished both DIT and Pass program before physically beginning medical school. Now you decide if I am a medical student or not. 🙂

 

[YiSheng]

I may not have physically started medical school...but I have been accepted, and I have the First Aid for Step 1 2011, the DIT study guide, and access to the DIT lectures. I study 12 hours a day (just as DIT recommends) and will be finishing the DIT course 9 days from now. Then I will start Pass program.
I will have finished both DIT and Pass program before physically beginning medical school. Now you decide if I am a medical student or not. 🙂

You are studying for Step 1 before you start med school?

 

[DocEspana]

I may not have physically started medical school...but I have been accepted, and I have the First Aid for Step 1 2011, the DIT study guide, and access to the DIT lectures. I study 12 hours a day (just as DIT recommends) and will be finishing the DIT course 9 days from now. Then I will start Pass program.
I will have finished both DIT and Pass program before physically beginning medical school. Now you decide if I am a medical student or not. 🙂

bull****

first aid maybe. some people are crazy and you use that the study before school.

doctors in training even with the first aid book in your hands he's way too fast paced and complicated for anyone to utilize unless they've actually been through 1 or 2 years of medical school. you realize that hours ago and quit. the fact that you didn't say that makes me very confident you're not using dit

edit:if you are telling the truth I apologize but now I think you're a robot not a human

 

[preDoGuy24]

I may not have physically started medical school...but I have been accepted, and I have the First Aid for Step 1 2011, the DIT study guide, and access to the DIT lectures. I study 12 hours a day (just as DIT recommends) and will be finishing the DIT course 9 days from now. Then I will start Pass program.
I will have finished both DIT and Pass program before physically beginning medical school. Now you decide if I am a medical student or not. 🙂

This is a big wotam (waste of time and money). Seriously though studying for a board you wont take for almost 3 years is dumb. Go get laid...a lot. Med school affords you all the opportunity to learn this Crap, and you will lose a lot of whatever you gain (if anything) by the time boards come around.

 

[kazuma]

Here come the MD/DO students who want to discourage you either because they want to kill the competition or because they themselves couldn't make it....and there will be more........there will be a lot more.....but my dear, always remember my example.
If a guy from AUA (as an FMG) could match into Neurosurgery at Brown....you can def get allo opthalmo.
http://uncleharvey.com/index.php/wiki/2011_Match_List_for_Neurological_Surgery/

Please ignore these guys, use both DIT and Pass Program for USMLE Step 1, 2. Get solid opthalmo research (at least 1 but preferably more publications) and then tell me how much love allo opthalmo PD's are showing you.....

For the love of Osteopathic Medicine, ignore the haters!!!!

Indeed wise premed, that's exactly what's going on. You see, I really wanted to be an eye doctor but I didn't have the stats, so I settled with Anesthesiology. If I can't be an eye doctor, then I'm going to do everything I can to prohibit current students from perusing their eye doctor dreams.🙄

I don't have a horse in this race. He's asking for advice and the majority of people here are giving him sound advice. There are outliers in every field, but it doesn't mean that the average joe D.O. with a high USMLE score can just walk into whatever ACGME specialty he chooses.

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

bull****

first aid maybe. some people are crazy and you use that the study before school.

doctors in training even with the first aid book in your hands he's way too fast paced and complicated for anyone to utilize unless they've actually been through 1 or 2 years of medical school. you realize that hours ago and quit. the fact that you didn't say that makes me very confident you're not using dit

edit:if you are telling the truth I apologize but now I think you're a robot not a human

Apology accepted
He isn't that fast...I had quite a bit of trouble with embryology (but there I utilized Temple University's Basic Human Embryology lectures)...other than that...its all just wrote memory......

I see DIT as Dr Jenkins doing this:
For example,
Here is an excerpt from my Day 2 Lecture 2 word file:

start of lecture

Q1. what are the functions of the lymph node?
Q2. Which region in the spleen houses the T cells?
....
Q95. Name the HLA B27 Seronegative arthropathies? Also name the treatment of choice?
Q96. Which TNF alpha inhibitor is functionally a receptor? Which is an antibody?
....
Q157. .Class switching to which Ig is enhanced by IL 5? .
Q156. Name the condition associated with eosinophilia which hints IL 5 involvement in eosinophil development and differentiation?
....
Q203. Is immunologic memory developed upon exposure to thymus independent antigens?
....
end of lecture

So, I pause every 2-3 mins and type out the questions whose answers he addressed....and type in the page on FA which has the answer.
Then I review 5-10 times the file for each lecture....and there you go...
That is how I study and NOT fall asleep...otherwise, you are right....it is VERY challenging to listen to 5-6 hours of DRY monotonous lecturing by Dr. Jenkins every day...lol

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

Indeed wise premed, that's exactly what's going on. You see, I really wanted to be an eye doctor but I didn't have the stats, so I settled with Anesthesiology. If I can't be an eye doctor, then I'm going to do everything I can to prohibit current students from perusing their eye doctor dreams.🙄

I don't have a horse in this race. He's asking for advice and the majority of people here are giving him sound advice. There are outliers in every field, but it doesn't mean that the average joe D.O. with a high USMLE score can just walk into whatever ACGME specialty he chooses.

I agree with you. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. And instead of competing, should hide under our beds every time we hear the words "USMLE Step 1 & 2" or "competitive ACGME specialty"

 

[kazuma]

I agree with you. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. And instead of competing, should hide under our beds every time we hear the words "USMLE Step 1 & 2" or "competitive ACGME specialty"

Sounds about right, I still hide under my bed. Taking the USMLE 1 & 2 still haunts me. Scary couple of day them were.


I don't ever remember telling him to not take the USMLE, in fact I think it's a great idea and I'm glad I took both steps. I'm cautioning him to not put all his eggs in one basket and to have a back up plan in case he only ends up with only a few allo interviews.

 

[FutureDoctorrrr]

Sounds about right, I still hide under my bed. Taking the USMLE 1 & 2 still haunts me. Scary couple of day them were.


I don't ever remember telling him to not take the USMLE, in fact I think it's a great idea and I'm glad I took both steps. I'm cautioning him to not put all his eggs in one basket and to have a back up plan in case he only ends up with only a few allo interviews.

I wasn't aware that there are programs that won't invite DO's just because they are DO's.....hmm...ok then I endorse this plan as well....I had always thought that it was an open competition, and that MD students landed prestigious residencies because they worked very hard...and that we as DO students could accomplish the same.
But, I stand corrected.

 

[Skinceutical]

I wasn't aware that there are programs that won't invite DO's just because they are DO's.....hmm...ok then I endorse this plan as well....I had always thought that it was an open competition, and that MD students landed prestigious residencies because they worked very hard...and that we as DO students could accomplish the same.
But, I stand corrected.

Not sure where this attitude is coming from.

Considering the fact that AOA programs don't allow MD students to even apply for positions, shouldn't you be grateful that ACGME programs in any specialty consider (and take) DOs?

 

[tkim]

Not sure where this attitude is coming from.

Considering the fact that AOA programs don't allow MD students to even apply for positions, shouldn't you be grateful that ACGME programs in any specialty consider (and take) DOs?

It's a symbiotic relationship. Otherwise, how will you get the ACGME FP program in east oshkosh to fill?

 

[Skinceutical]

It's a symbiotic relationship. Otherwise, how will you get the ACGME FP program in east oshkosh to fill?

The same way they did back in the 1960's...with IMGs who are willing to study their a**es off for the USMLEs and would trade their right arms for an FP spot at St. Outside Hospital in Bufu, Mississippi.

I'm not trying to start an DO vs IMG pissing contest, nor am I "anti-DO." But I found the sense of entitlement in the OP to be somewhat obnoxious. DOs can apply, unopposed, to any competitive specialty via the AOA match. I don't see how anyone can whine about ACGME programs showing a preference for US-trained MDs as well.

 

[DocEspana]

I wasn't aware that there are programs that won't invite DO's just because they are DO's.....hmm...ok then I endorse this plan as well....I had always thought that it was an open competition, and that MD students landed prestigious residencies because they worked very hard...and that we as DO students could accomplish the same.
But, I stand corrected.

Think of it this way. It is an open competition. Truly. But scores and gpa aren't the only bars used to screen. Some high end programs use name brand value of your school. Come from a no name school and you're filtered at the door, just like everyone else. For some programas that's an absolute rule, for some programs truly unique applicants can still make it to the interview round. Either way there is no name brand DO school except for maybe MSU. maybe.

There are a few no name md schools. I imagine they have the same problem, but its just less recognized and/or more accepted.

 

[DO Anes]

Either way there is no name brand DO school except for maybe MSU. maybe.

There are a few no name md schools. I imagine they have the same problem, but its just less recognized and/or more accepted.

School name reputation does count, at least somewhat. So, just as a student from Yale tends to be looked on better than one from Eastern Virginia, one from an older DO school (e.g. PCOM, KCUMB, etc.) is seen as better than one from a newer school (LECOM, etc.) The branch campuses are also less desirable than the home campus (PCOM-GA vs. PA). Of course, it will not fix a broken USMLE, but you get the idea.

 

[DocEspana]

School name reputation does count, at least somewhat. So, just as a student from Yale tends to be looked on better than one from Eastern Virginia, one from an older DO school (e.g. PCOM, KCUMB, etc.) is seen as better than one from a newer school (LECOM, etc.) The branch campuses are also less desirable than the home campus (PCOM-GA vs. PA). Of course, it will not fix a broken USMLE, but you get the idea.

agreed, I just wish to expand to say that in these places that "dont take DOs" a simpler way to look at it (likely the *right* way to look at it) is that even the best DO school has the name brand value of a low end MD school. Thats not terrible, but it lets you place the impact of name value and, as you suggested, a good school may give your scores a slight boost as there is levels within even DO schools.

 

[mishaS]

thank you for all of your responses...as far as statistics go i could care less. i know what i want and i am going to do all i can to get that. the % of DOs in a field gets washed out by sheer numbers anyway. I plan on taking both the COMLEX and USMLE this summer and I plan on applying to both DO and MD programs, theres just sooo many more MD programs than DO so its slim pickings. as far as it being 1%--->so you're telling me there's a chance?!?!? (and it's better than Lloyd's 1 in a million from Dumb and Dumber from the numbers quoted previously)

If you want real advice on getting a residency, this is what the residents told us at the Ophthalmology interest meeting in regards to getting a residency: shadow ophthalmologists, do ophthalmology rotations, and do research under well known ophthalmologists. It's all obvious right? They basically said that they want to take in people who are a good fit, and nothing tells them this better than getting good letters of rec from well respected people, who's opinions matter, saying that you're a great candidate to join their ranks. The odds are against you as is, if you don't go the extra mile in doing these things I hope you're smart enough to get that stellar board score otherwise required of you.

 

[El Dooderino]

agreed, I just wish to expand to say that in these places that "dont take DOs" a simpler way to look at it (likely the *right* way to look at it) is that even the best DO school has the name brand value of a low end MD school. Thats not terrible, but it lets you place the impact of name value and, as you suggested, a good school may give your scores a slight boost as there is levels within even DO schools.

I know its probably easier for you to see it this way, but it's absolutely not true. "Low end" MD schools have a huge boost over any DO school, match lists have been posted that demonstrate this. Honestly id bet the majority of ACGME PD's have no idea what the good DO schools are. To them a DO is a DO

 

[rad0nc]

I know its probably easier for you to see it this way, but it's absolutely not true. "Low end" MD schools have a huge boost over any DO school, match lists have been posted that demonstrate this. Honestly id bet the majority of ACGME PD's have no idea what the good DO schools are. To them a DO is a DO

This is true, but I think that most of it has to do with how the ERAS software lets the program directors screen applicants. The vast majority of programs in competitive specialties simply screen out everyone who isn't an American MD with one click of the mouse. I know it doesn't seem fair, but it makes sense from their point of view when they have thousands of applications to go through. They also screen by board score, but if you don't have an allopathic degree you won't even get to that cut for most programs.

 

[DocEspana]

I know its probably easier for you to see it this way, but it's absolutely not true. "Low end" MD schools have a huge boost over any DO school, match lists have been posted that demonstrate this. Honestly id bet the majority of ACGME PD's have no idea what the good DO schools are. To them a DO is a DO

I think you misunderstood me. I literally define the best DO school as MSU. Which does have match lists equal to a low end MD school. You can see this because they have a mid-level MD school also taught there and you can make a legit argument that the COM has a better match list than the allopathic school. Its debateable, but the allopathic school there isnt a "low end" school either. If a school is screening their admissions its one thing, but that hospital is also gonna screen out the low end MD schools as well when it sees what the school is. Its *much* easier to treat it the way i said it, and likely more accurate.

When I say low, I'm not talking about most MD schools... but there are a few junky (comparatively, obv theyd be above almost any DO school by my own admission) out there.

I'm basically agreeing with you, I was just trying to get people into a better mindset since, honestly. this whole DO/MD argument happening above me boils down to any DO is at or below low end MD schools for name brand value. and it represents everything much more tangibly.

 

[Dissected]

I think you misunderstood me. I literally define the best DO school as MSU. Which does have match lists equal to a low end MD school.

I'm not overly impressed with their match list. It doesn't really stand out from other established DO schools to me.

 

[DocEspana]

I'm not overly impressed with their match list. It doesn't really stand out from other established DO schools to me.

now compare it to MSU CHM. That was my point. not that MSU is anything special, but that it is the best school to use to define a strong name brand DO school: its established and has an in-house allopathic school. Control for variables when comparing them.

 

[TwoFists]

If you want to apply to MD ophthalmology you must take USMLE step 1, you will not be considered without it. If you get less than 220 your chances of getting in are virtually zero unless your uncle is a PD or you have Nobel Prize quality ophthalmology research. 220-230 is slim but DOs have done it, you probably won't interview anywhere you didn't rotate, 230-240 you may get some interviews where you didn't rotate, 240+ ideal but the odds are still against you.

You may be able to avoid taking step 2 as many md applicants wait till after application season to take step 2. However if you do poorly at step 1, a great step 2 is your only lifeline.

Remember: board scores do not get you in to any program; they merely make it so that the program looks at the rest of your application. There are plenty of students that get 250's 260's and think they can walk into any speciality they wish and end up scrambling into IM. DOs that have gotten in to MD program have strong letters from writers familiar to PD, have rotated at the program and got along well with attendings and residents, did excellent grand rounds presentations, have research, have gone above and beyond in showing their desire and commitment to ophthalmology .

Historically 2-3 DO get into the MD world each year out of ~450 open positions. FMGs place about 15 per year, but these aren't your typical Caribbean students, many come from good schools in Europe, many are already ophthalmologists in high regards working in other countries. I would guess that there are 30-40 DO applicants each year for MD ophthalmology.

On the opposite side, most of the DO programs only interview people who have rotated at their program, you can't rotate everywhere, and being a "good fit" can often have more to do with luck than just being a nice person. This year I was told that there were ~70 applicants to DO ophthalmology.

Let's say you interview at 5 DO programs, (I never meet anyone who had more) you are competing for 5-6 positions. If you interview at 2-4 md programs you would be competing for 5-15 positions but the evaluation is stacked against you. Bottom line is it is hard either way.

 

[tkim]

The same way they did back in the 1960's...with IMGs who are willing to study their a**es off for the USMLEs and would trade their right arms for an FP spot at St. Outside Hospital in Bufu, Mississippi.

I'm not trying to start an DO vs IMG pissing contest, nor am I "anti-DO." But I found the sense of entitlement in the OP to be somewhat obnoxious. DOs can apply, unopposed, to any competitive specialty via the AOA match. I don't see how anyone can whine about ACGME programs showing a preference for US-trained MDs as well.

The OP of this thread doesn't sound entitled at all. The poster *you* quoted just sounded naive. But whatever.

 

[kcopphtho]

The same way they did back in the 1960's...with IMGs who are willing to study their a**es off for the USMLEs and would trade their right arms for an FP spot at St. Outside Hospital in Bufu, Mississippi.

I'm not trying to start an DO vs IMG pissing contest, nor am I "anti-DO." But I found the sense of entitlement in the OP to be somewhat obnoxious. DOs can apply, unopposed, to any competitive specialty via the AOA match. I don't see how anyone can whine about ACGME programs showing a preference for US-trained MDs as well.

I dont consider asking if USMLE (ontop of COMLEX) is required for certain residencies as being obnoxious/entitled. I am only simply asking if there are other people that have been in my shoes before and how they did it. There are tons more spots available in allopathic residencies compared to osteopathic. Honestly, I'm all for open competition and I don't see why there isn't a general license to practice medicine (DO or MD) and then a certificate/license to practice OMM but thats not the way it is whatsoever, and until it is we will have to take both exams.

 

[Phelanpi]

I dont consider asking if USMLE (ontop of COMLEX) is required for certain residencies as being obnoxious/entitled. I am only simply asking if there are other people that have been in my shoes before and how they did it. There are tons more spots available in allopathic residencies compared to osteopathic. Honestly, I'm all for open competition and I don't see why there isn't a general license to practice medicine (DO or MD) and then a certificate/license to practice OMM but thats not the way it is whatsoever, and until it is we will have to take both exams.

I am currently a OMS IV that is attempting to match into a D.O Ophthalmology program, i feel i have a pretty good shot but will be able to tell you more on Feb. 13th. I have taken both the USMLE and COMLEX, If your asking how competitive matching into ophtho (MD or DO) is, the answer is VERY HARD! , on average D.O Ophtho programs held 20-30 interviews for 1 residency spot (thats less than 5% chance if your looking at pure mathematical chances). You will be going against the top 10% in terms of GPA, Life experience, AND previous ophthalmology experience. Most D.O ophtho programs are linked to MD programs. The best advice that i can give is to rotate at as many of the programs as possible, this usually will guarantee you at least an interview which is 80% of the battle, after that, The best advice is to be yourself and to work your butt off at something that will set you apart from the rest of the applicant field, no matter what it is, whether its research, volunteering, etc. Hope that i was able to give you some clarity on at least the D.O programs. Also, there are a few D.O friendly ophtho residencies out there, Geinsinger, Drexel, Tulane, WVU, UMDNJ, Penn state

 

[Skinceutical]

I dont consider asking if USMLE (ontop of COMLEX) is required for certain residencies as being obnoxious/entitled. I am only simply asking if there are other people that have been in my shoes before and how they did it. There are tons more spots available in allopathic residencies compared to osteopathic. Honestly, I'm all for open competition and I don't see why there isn't a general license to practice medicine (DO or MD) and then a certificate/license to practice OMM but thats not the way it is whatsoever, and until it is we will have to take both exams.

I was referring to "FutureDoctorrrr" (whose post I quoted in my initial response to this thread), and not to you.

 

[kcopphtho]

My mistake. I misinterpreted OP as referring to myself

 

[tkim]

My mistake. I misinterpreted OP as referring to myself

Same as me: OP = 'original poster'. Ja?