DO/JD

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annushka

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Has anyone considered a DO/JD??? I'm getting more and more interested in law while in med school--and I'm wondering if anyone knows of any osteopathic schools offering joint programs (or maybe even is in one already).

Any input will be appreciated.

Thanks!
 
I too am interested in DO/JD. I am an MSIII and want to know if anyone has, or if anyone knows of someone who graduated from medical school and went directly to law school without doing a residency. I know that being a lawyer with a medical background can 1. give you an opportunity to significantly impact the current face of health care and 2. make a lot of $$$. Thank you.

Sixteenstones
 
I too have had some interest in pursuing this, however, I wouldn't look for a combined program. If you graduate with a medical degree, you will be a very competitive applicant to top law schools, why would you go to Rutgers law? The only way I would pursue this would be to go to a top 10 law program. Remember law school is not like medical school, any schmo can get into law school.
 
If you think that any schmoo can get into law school you are sadly mistaken. Having a medical degree is not going to make you more competitive unless you can also get good scores on the LSAT. And why worry about being competitive if anyone can get in? Also, the method of problem solving is completely different in law than in either medicine or science. Let me repeat that: completely different! There are no equations or lab tests to help you make the DX and you will face a level of intellectual abstraction unlike any you have previously encountered, so be ready and (as they drill into you early in law school) never take anything or anyone for granted. I agree with the poster that said that the combination of legal and medical degrees will put the person having them front and center for health care reform as well as any number of highly interesting issues requiring a knowledge of both. And the money will surely follow. There are currently less than 2000 people in the US with both law and medical degrees. How do I know all of this? I happen to have a law degree and have practiced law for quite some time, including now, while I am also an MS2 in medical school. I don't know of any DO programs that currently have a joint program, but you can create this for yourself. Also, I recommend that you get your medical degree and actually practice some before going to law school. Having some previous experience as a responsible pprofessional will help your application process. And remember this - there are no safety nets, no internships, residencies, etc. in law. When you pass the bar (which doesn't come in 3 steps) you need to be ready to sink or swim. Good Luck to All
 
I am also very interested in both DO and JD degrees. However, back in undergrad when I wanted to be an MD, I looked into the joint programs (there's a bunch of them) and there was a weird format. One school had you do the first two years of medical school, then two years of law school, then your clinical years while you finish the last year of law school. It was a 6 yr program - thus saving you a year. After seeing this format (not sure what it is for the DO/JD program but I can hypothesize that it's similar) - I realized that the vast amount of information that you are forced to learn in the first two years of medical school will probably be lost during the two years of law school -- and will somehow have to be recovered to finish off your clinical years. I have since decided to finish medical school and residency then do one of the night/extended law schools once I have a steady schedule and money to pay for school.

Just my $0.02 :hardy:
 
As a recent DO graduate, I have considered getting a JD. My brother is a JD, so I have a good insight into what really goes on in the life of a lawyer...

But we have a MD/JD here at our program, and I asked him. he was very frank with me. He told me it would be best to wait several years until after residency, then consider why you want to get your JD. If you just want to do med mal defense (or plaintiff), then you dont' even need an MD or a DO degree. You won't be paid much extra for it...

If however, you want to do risk management (which is something I am interested in), then strongly consider it...

Q, DO
 
Both of you raise excellent points. Forensic chick, I take it from your name that you might be interested in forensic pathology. Being a dual degree (law and medicine) holder in the medical examiner's office won't make you so much of an oddity as there are quite a few there that have them. It would also be an excellent choice for those interested in risk management from the health care perspective. And both of you are correct in your advice to practice your first profession for awhile before doing the second. It is a huge advantage in the application process to have already practiced as a professional with the primary responsibility for a client or patient. The confidentiality and fiduciary duties are very similar between attorneys and physicians. It should also help quite a bit from the financial end of things! I wish both of you well and maybe you will be crazy enough to join the exclusive club!
 
Muonwhiz,

You guessed correctly. I would like to have both the law background and the medical background to properly serve my patients and testify on their behalf. This will be my second year applying to medical school - and since I will be taking the LSAT in October, if I do not get in to med school this year then law school will be where I end up next fall (hopefully).

How do you plan to use your dual degrees?
 
I plan to use them both to kick some managed care butt (as they say in layman's terms)!
 
Can anyone give me a quick heads up on the job description of someone in risk management, salary, benefits, DO/JD involvement thereof?
thanks
 
I don't know about this specifically, but would surmise that both degrees would put the person in a good position to do risk management. Law school will provide the knowledge base to assess legal liability (i.e. risk) in all sorts of situations, not just med mal. I also think that such positions may (for the time being) be available in large organizations (corporations, managed care, pharmaceuticals, etc). The person would probably go in as head of the department with a Executive Vice President title and commensurate salary and perks. These would also depend on size and type of organization and region of the country where located. Salary and perks in a large organization would easily be six figures and probably multiples thereof.

However caveat! You'd better get those jobs while you can, because I intend an extinction level event for the managed care organizations!🙂
 
I got my law degree and my MBA before going to medical school. I'm only an MS II and it's funny, I already get phone calls from consulting firms and headhunters. I want to treat patients, but it's nice to know there is some flexibility with career options. It does seem to give you an entree to affect the overall "system" more than your average doc. . . one of the problems with healthcare now is that the business side, which makes many of the "global" decisions, does not communicate with the clinical side, which actually delivers the care. health care managers, as a rule, know little about clinical medicine, and clinicians (I am generalizing of course) know little of management theory, finance, or the regulatory environment in which health care systems must operate. So if you are interested in these matters, by all means go for it.
 
hey, RDGJD

did you have a hard time getting into med school with a jd? i've heard from other people with jd's that med school admissions people don't like jd's and sometimes hold that degree against us.
your story is really inspiring to me because i also want to actually work with patients and not do consulting if i do end up going to med school.

speaking of different thinking styles between law and sciences, i'm definitely having a hard time going from law school to taking physics this term. i'm so used to being abstract and not coming up with concrete answers that lab and calculations are a weird concept to me. also, i've discovered that i'm very anal about word usage in our problems. i imagine law school and med school studying styles would be very different. law school involves tons of reading and abstract thinking with very little memorization.

as far as getting into law school, the lsat is the most important factor--law schools don't really care about your longstanding desire to be a lawyer or anything like that. also, prestige is critical.
 
hi exlawgrrl,

I had less difficulty than I had anticipated. My background was sufficiently unusual, I guess, that it gave my interviewers and me something to talk about beyond the standard med school admissions stuff. As far as the sciences, one of my undergrad majors was biophysics, and I was actually a premed in college, but working my way through college as a paid paramedic totally burned me out, and I ended up taking a couple detours before coming full circle again.

it is so true that medical school is a much different experience than law school. Unlike law school, your medical school day is so regimented and full, and the volumes of info are so great, that it is physically as well as mentally exhausting sometimes. Law school was challenging for the abstraction, as you mentioned, and because of the lack of structure to everything...I mean you had class, your West casebooks, and your self-made outlines, and maybe a few Nutshell books, but the real challenge was framing all the info and giving it some semblance of structure come exam time.

But one thing I have noticed about medical school is that it rewards diligence and perserverance more than raw brilliance. If you are diligent, and stick with it every day, you will not only survive, you will thrive.

😎
 
I was wondering if you liked law school better than med school.

If not or if so, could you tell methe differences. I am considering both. I have a BSc in Biology (3.4) and a Master in health management systems(4.0). I am more systematic when I study and I like structure so I was thinking maybe of patent law for biotech and pharmaceuticals. Possibly getting in regulatory affairs and FDA issue.

Thank you,

Jim
 
for replying to my inquiry. it's nice to know that i'm not alone in considering this (and here i was, thinking my post would get lost somewhere on student doctor, along with other 0 response posts because no doctor in their right mind would consider law :laugh: )

it's interesting to see that there are a lot of JD's who are entering/currently in/considering to enter a med school... and most of you guys seem to think that med school is more difficult--am i getting you correctly?

thanks again,
-a.
 
well, i'm considering med school and do have a jd. since i've never been to med school, i don't know exactly what it's like, but my brother and several friends have gone, so i sort of have a clue. from what i gather, med school requires more work, and as rdgjd pointed out, you're more rewarded for hard work in med school than law school. the people who do the best in law school are not necessarily the people who work the hardest--some people study all the time and do poorly, while other slack and do well. i was fortunate to be one of those people that it clicked for, so i didn't have to study that much. also, there are no exams except finals in law school, and most courses don't require papers. consequently, you can get away with doing practically nothing for half of the semester. i'm sure if i go to med school, i'll study much more.

overall, whichever one is harder is relative. med school is undoubtedly more time-consuming, but law school can be really frustrating for lots of people because it just doesn't mesch with how they think. also, law itself is not a profession for people who want to slack. so, for those of you, looking for an easier life, law's probably not going to be it. of course, i didn't read about that here, but i came across someone on another board saying he/she was considering law school to avoid the time commitment of medical school.
 
I like to describe law school, especially the first year experience, with this analogy: imagine being in a general bio or chem course, but there are no textbooks and no didactic lectures per se. you have reading to do and you have classes to attend, but all you read are articles from, say, Nature or the Journal of Molecular Biology and all the professor does is call on you to discuss the articles in class. in other words, you are learning directly from the primary literature, with no standard textbook and little background or context given. Then imagine that in the course, there is only one, long, essay-style exam at the end of the term that is 100% of your grade. and as that exam approaches, you realize that you have read all these articles and listened to the prof ream you and your classmates on them, but you have little idea what it is you actually were supposed to LEARN from them. Figuring out what that is, and then packaging it in a way that is accessible to you, is one of the chief challenges of law school, and it is what trips many people up, especially those who are more used to (or comfortable with) structure. In law school you learn from actual appellate cases, which were written to decide issues of law, not to teach law students.

As far as whether to go to medical school or law school...all I can offer is my own feelings on the matter. Personally I think the only reason anyone should go to medical school is to learn to treat patients. Medicine is akin to the priesthood in a sense, in that it is more a way of life than just a career. Your life ceases to be your own in many ways, and dealing with fatigue, loss, the demands of your patients, and doing so at a moment's notice 24/7, requires a commitment that transcends the practical. If you don't "feel in your gut" the calling to be a doctor, I think it will be nigh impossible to endure the challenges of both medical training and medical practice. It's kind of like marriage in that sense...don't do it unless the thought of not doing it is appalling to contemplate. But again, that is just my take on it.
 
Originally posted by RDGJD
Medicine is akin to the priesthood in a sense, in that it is more a way of life than just a career. Your life ceases to be your own in many ways, and dealing with fatigue, loss, the demands of your patients, and doing so at a moment's notice 24/7, requires a commitment that transcends the practical. If you don't "feel in your gut" the calling to be a doctor, I think it will be nigh impossible to endure the challenges of both medical training and medical practice. It's kind of like marriage in that sense...don't do it unless the thought of not doing it is appalling to contemplate. But again, that is just my take on it.

Wow, that is one of the best things I've heard on SDN for a while... I would cross-post this to some of the threads here--especially the ones discussing which specialty gives you the most dough and the least amount of work--but I'm afraid there's too many of them.

That is an amazingly correct statement, something which we unfortunately begin to forget as the exams pile up and we get progressively less sleep 🙂
 
NSU has a dual DO/JD. As well as DO/MBA and DO/MPH. Incidentally, the school pays your tuition to get the MPH = "free" degree. For the price of an extra class each semester, you, too, could have an MPH!🙂
 
Does anyone else think that the movie "The Devil's Advocate" (Keanu Reeves, Al Pacino) was the coolest?!
 
Heed--
I'm a little bit uneducated on this, but what would a DO/MPH do? i know it stands for master's in public health...does that mean you go to work for CDC or something like that?
 
Annushka-

You could certainly use an MPH degree to help you get into the CDC. I view it the same way an MBA is viewed in business: not essential but very beneficial. From what I understand, having an MPH would help open doors into hospital administration. Having that educational foundation would assist an admnistrator in networking with the community, setting up programs, etc. I'm not an authority on it, so maybe some others could add some info.

The DO/MPH program at NSU is pretty good, especially when you consider the monetary cost is $0.🙂
 
What does an MPH do? It puts three more letters after your name.
 
I am a J.D. (and a PA) thinking about returning to D.O. school.
I practice medical malpractice defense, and patent law (prosecution).

I think it is helpful to have exposure to medicine if you are going to practice certain areas of law. The first big "fork in the road" is determining whether or not you will be a litigator or nonlitigator. The next determination is what type of litigation (e.g. personal injury, med mal, etc.)

Generally speaking all cases involve proving "liability" and "damages." Because all personal injury cases will involve some physical injury, medical knowledge is helpful in defending against (or proving) damages.

Of course medical knowledge is especially useful in defending/bringing medical malpractice cases because both liability (departure from the standard of care) and damages (resultant injury) are at issue.

Anyone interested in this field can feel free to email me.


I am a J.D. (and a PA) thinking about returning to D.O. school.
I practice medical malpractice defense, and patent law (prosecution).

I think it is helpful to have exposure to medicine if you are going to practice certain areas of law. The first big "fork in the road" is determining whether or not you will be a litigator or nonlitigator. The next determination is what type of litigation (e.g. personal injury, med mal, etc.)

Generally speaking all cases involve proving "liability" and "damages." Because all personal injury cases will involve some physical injury, medical knowledge is helpful in defending against (or proving) damages.

Of course medical knowledge is especially useful in defending/bringing medical malpractice cases because both liability (departure from the standard of care) and damages (resultant injury) are at issue.

Anyone interested in this field can feel free to email me.
 
Hi Muonwhiz, RDGJD, Exlawgrl, anushka,

I would have PM's all of you but I'm hoping that all of you will reply. I have a dilemma that I desperately need info on. Firstly, I've wanted to be a doctor since 18; however, because my parents pushed me towards the field I sort of rebelled. Thus, I decided to double major in Econ and science. After a year, I quickly realized I hated econ and had a real passion for the study of disease, learning about treatments, and marvelled at how the body worked. Although I prmiarly liked bio I was fortunate to choose electicves that intrested me. Much of my elective course work was in arts courses such philosophy, english and pysch, ancient civilizations. Anyhow, to make a long story short, in my 3rd year I applied to medical school but I was rejected; however, I wasn't disapointed b/c I knew I didn't work har enough to get in. In fact, I was so scared of the MCAT that I decided not to take it. As a result, I only applied to schools that did not require MCAT's (I'm a Canadian and I applied to Canadian schools only). Thus, I spent the next two years of school busting my ass. I did not take a break and spent six semesters straight in school. The hardwork paid of as my GPA was a 3.80, 3.85 in my last two years. However during my last year I considered an alternative to med school. I became very interested in the ethics of science and the field of bioethics. For instance, I was very interested in the ethics of stem cell research. I guess, for the first time in my life my eyes opened as I began to consider many perspectives towards an issue. Anyhow, during my last year I contacted several law schools to explore if any oppourtunities existed between science and the law. My research showed me that many science undergrads go on to a succesful career in law in the fields of patent law, IP law, and health law. Thus, I was excited b/c I thought I'd have the opportunity to maintain my interets in science and use it for a useful purpose in law school.

Sorry for the story but I would really like the opinion of some of you MD/JD's....anyhow, I was accepted to several law schools; however, as the date to begin law school came closer I spent many sleepless night. I was very anxious about going, and I feared that I was making a horrible mistake. I don't know if it was fear of the uknown or something in my gut but I just didn't feel that going to law school was okay. The reason was b/c I still desired to become a doctor. Some of my friends who have gone on to foriegn medical school would tell storied about their clinical experinces and I just kept telling my self "I should be there. Wow that sounds so darn exciting".

Anyhow, I decided to defer my law school admission untill Sept 2004. I took this year off to study for the MCAT, and I already applied to the schools that don't require an MCAT.

Finally, I need your advice on the following. I've only really wanted to practice medicine in Canada. I have no desire to practice in the U.S. or anywhere else. Canada is my home, my friends, family, and potential mate all live here. As i'm sure you are all aware going the foriegn route to become a doctor is very tough. It's very tough to obtain a residency in the U.S. but much more difficult to get a residency in Canada. Infact, the general principle is for any student who studies medicine outside of Canada they have a very slim chance of practing in Canada.

I know I want to be a doctor but I don't think I'm willing to give up my home to practice medicine. Thus, would it be foolish to attend law school next year?

My rational is that maybe I should give law a shot. If I didn't like it I could always reapply to medical school, or consider the foreign route. I guess my problem I don't seem very passionate about law because I don't have alot of exposure in it.

For all of you JD students? Were you passionate about the law before u attended law school? What sorts of activites did u engage in to test your motivaton for law school? Is their anything that I can do to get a better feel for what lawyers with a science background do.

I've talked to patent lawyers but it's next to impossible to shadow one b/c of confidentiality. Would attending law school classes help?

Thanks....I hope I didn't offend anyone...just need some advice from people who are in 2 backgrounds that i'm interested in. To me it seems, that both medicine and law seem more that just a regular job.
 
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