Do majority med students aim to just "pass" or shoot for A's?

[xzoticskillz]

Of course all medical students coming in as M1s have an expectation to earn the best grades they possibly can, but does motivation get lost once they are neck deep in their studies? Just curious if majority of med students are satisfied with just passing their blocks rather than getting that A or B? Would just passing be more practical when you consider all the stress/long hours it would take to earn grades higher than passing? I'm assuming it would really only matter if you're aiming for a competitive residency. Interested in hearing from thoughts/opinions from current med students.

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[MayoorBust]

Of course all medical students coming in as M1s have an expectation to earn the best grades they possibly can, but does motivation get lost once they are neck deep in their studies? Just curious if majority of med students are satisfied with just passing their blocks rather than getting that A or B? Would just passing be more practical when you consider all the stress/long hours it would take to earn grades higher than passing? I'm assuming it would really only matter if you're aiming for a competitive residency. Interested in hearing from thoughts/opinions from current med students.

I would assume that if you want to be the best doctor possible you shoot for the highest grade possible. However, I can see that some will believe that entrance into medical school is their crowing achievement and shoot for the bare minimum. These people are in the minority in your class. With that said P/F school no AOA for the win.

 

[swamprat]

Uhh actually it starts off that everyone is pretty gunnerish.. or at least wants to do really well. Then after the first or second round of exams and the shock of "omg im a medical student" wears off ppl start to realize that its not worth the extra effort and they want to have somewhat of a life and/or they just can't earn the top grades to get honors in a class so they just do what they can to succeed. No ones lazy and no ones not smart but the mentality coming in is def more of the pre-med im gunna be better than everyone else type and it fades off pretty quickly.

 

[Cole Trickle]

I'm pretty sure the majority doesn't shoot for A's. I.e. > 50% will not be shooting for an A.

 

[drizzt3117]

Most people just blow it off; it's not like learning medicine has any bearing on their future career anyways... 🙄

Of course all medical students coming in as M1s have an expectation to earn the best grades they possibly can, but does motivation get lost once they are neck deep in their studies? Just curious if majority of med students are satisfied with just passing their blocks rather than getting that A or B? Would just passing be more practical when you consider all the stress/long hours it would take to earn grades higher than passing? I'm assuming it would really only matter if you're aiming for a competitive residency. Interested in hearing from thoughts/opinions from current med students.

 

[McPoyle]

I think most people start off willing to do whatever it takes to get an A... But then at some point many realize they simply are not going to be straight A students anymore, and others realize that what it may cost them to make an A just isn't worth it.

For me it was important to realize that not everyone can receive the best grade in the class, some have to perform better than others.

Sometimes that was me, other times it wasn't. And sometimes I realized that doing things other than study was worth more.

 

[thomprya]

Not being condescending, but I feel you really can't understand until you are in the mix. Everyone comes in expecting to get A's I suspect, mainly since you need A's to get here. Unless you are naturally fantastic at retaining info then it becomes the question of how much time do you want to spend to get an A 60hrs/wk? 90? Most students settle for less simply because 90hrs a week of studying is truly an awful existence. Keep in mind that the C med student generally is working hard enough to be a straight A student at any undergrad heavy course load. A students are either fantastic at retaining facts or work like dogs every week (aka not posting on SDN like me ) usually both.

 

[GTP]

I gun for an A always. I know preclinical grades supposedly don't matter, but I have started looking at FA for Usmle and the mastery of all my first year classes is helping me move quickly through FA. It can't hurt to get an A. I've heard rumors about PDs asking people on interviews to explain their Bs and Cs or why their class rank is so low. I can't confirm the validity of these questions. I just know I don't want them to be directed towards me

 

[KnuxNole]

I went in wanting to pass, regardless of if I ever got an A, B, etc. So, if I did bad on a test, I would be upset that I don't know the material, not because "Wah I can't get an A". Same with getting a B on a test, I would not care that I didn't get an A, but be happy/blessed/relieved I did well. After all, med school is a large volume of stuff! Knowing the material and being happy regardless is ideal for me(probably not for some, but ymmv).

 

[Kevin Baker]

In the basic science classes our class average is about 1.5-2 standard deviations away from honors. So I assume most people don't shoot for the A.

 

[operaman]

Everyone came out strong at first, but people definitely relaxed a bit after a few exams. Based on the published medians for each exam, less than half our class was making an A each time. I'm not sure how many were gunning for A's, but that's how many acfually got them.

My advice would be to speak with the administration at your school to determine the advantages/disadvantages of going for the A every time. You may find your time could be better spent doing things besides memorizing minutiae. Ask specific questions about how ranking is done, how AOA is selected, etc., so you can plan your own time effectively. A purely p/f, unranked, no AOA school would be very different from a/b/c/d, ranked, AOA in terms of how to prioritize your time.

 

[Law2Doc]

Everyone came out strong at first, but people definitely relaxed a bit after a few exams...

for every person that relaxes, there are probably 1-2 that realize they need to step things up. Most people shoot for the stars and come up short. I'd say most of the people who say they are happy just passing really aren't and are just making themselves sound better. Sort of like award losers saying it was "an honor just to be nominated". The reality is that while the first two years grades really don't count for much, the material itself matters for Step 1, on the wards during rotations, and sometimes beyond. All med students know and believe this. And since most med students got mostly As in college, the reality that half the class is now below average leaves a lot of people crestfallen. Truth of the matter is that working hard keeps doors open, and until you start applying for the match, you really want those doors to stay open, regardless of what you ultimately choose. A lot of people even get to residency and start thinking about a change in specialties ( as you can see in the countless threads on the Gen Res board), so you never know when you need to have not closed doors. I see a ton of people on here each year who realize after a year of FM that maybe some more lifestyle field like anesthesiology has more appeal. So it pays to have stellar credentials in med school because that all comes back into play when you need to make a change. Sure, if you know you want FM and are correct, maybe it won't matter, but lots of people guess wrong.

 

[DocHawk117]

I agree that most students start off strong and attempt to gun. I am in a H/P/F curriculum, so it is a little different. My first semester my avgs were btwn 88-96% in all of my classes, and I only honored one class. Therefore, my 94 in genetics was basically the same as a 70. Second semester, I decided to try really hard in the beginning so I could enjoy myself during finals, and if I rocked a class, I'd shoot for honors, therefore adopting the P = MD mentality. I think a lot of my classmates adopted the same mentality, trying to honor one or two of their best classes, but being happy and accepting of a P. IMO, it's more about learning the big picture and dominating boards. Also, enjoying life outside of school.

 

[Law2Doc]

... A purely p/f, unranked, no AOA school would be very different from a/b/c/d, ranked, AOA in terms of how to prioritize your time.

not really, because acing med school has a high correlation with doing well on Step 1 and on the wards, which are the most important priorities for landing the residency of your dreams. Even in pass fail schools, the folks who know the material better are going to be better off.

 

[Cole Trickle]

not really, because acing med school has a high correlation with doing well on Step 1 and on the wards, which are the most important priorities for landing the residency of your dreams. Even in pass fail schools, the folks who know the material better are going to be better off.

Our school doesn't teach to the boards and students who've ignored our curriculum for boards studying have done pretty well. If your school doesn't teach to the boards, then some people won't be able to honoring and do really well on Step 1.

 

[Gunneria]

I think boards prep > honors 2nd year hence thumbs up for just passing....I feel we get tested differently and are responsible for different material for exams vs boards, etc..hence, P=MD + board prep is a better, more practical approach I believe of handling the volume of step 1 material effectively vs handling the full-in depth concepts required to ace/honor a 2nd year exam...personally, there is a tradeoff but im sure it varies school to school

 

[tiedyeddog]

for every person that relaxes, there are probably 1-2 that realize they need to step things up. Most people shoot for the stars and come up short. I'd say most of the people who say they are happy just passing really aren't and are just making themselves sound better.

uhhh, you didn't make many friends in medical school, did you?

 

[Law2Doc]

Our school doesn't teach to the boards and students who've ignored our curriculum for boards studying have done pretty well. If your school doesn't teach to the boards, then some people won't be able to honoring and do really well on Step 1.

It's not really a question of teaching to the boards, something few US allo med schools do, but many offshore schools do. The LCME requires every allo med school to more or less cover the same core curriculum, although formats differ. Most programs experience is still that there is a very high correlation between the folks who did well in med school, particularly the second year, higher yield, subjects, and Step 1. Sure there will always be individuals who buck this trend and are outliers, but trends are trends, and the existence of outliers doesn't change the general rule.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think boards prep > honors 2nd year hence thumbs up for just passing....I feel we get tested differently and are responsible for different material for exams vs boards, etc..hence, P=MD + board prep is a better, more practical approach I believe of handling the volume of step 1 material effectively vs handling the full-in depth concepts required to ace/honor a 2nd year exam...personally, there is a tradeoff but im sure it varies school to school

Perhaps, but doing well in med school is simply a very strong foundation to have before starting your board prep. You have a lot if real estate to cover to "catch up" to others starting points if you coasted.

 

[Law2Doc]

uhhh, you didn't make many friends in medical school, did you?

Many. But as a career changer who already had plenty of post-college years to "play" during my pre-med school life, I didn't really hang with the folks who didn't have their eye on the prize. And I certainly didn't ace med school, but always aimed high, gave it my best shot, kept every door open I could. At the end of the day you can't fault yourself for doing your best, but you certainly can, and should, if you close doors on yourself because you simply didn't feel like putting in the effort.

 

[illegallysmooth]

It's been my experience with friends that people who start struggling early on start aiming to pass. Others aim for A's or B's.

 

[Cole Trickle]

It's not really a question of teaching to the boards, something few US allo med schools do, but many offshore schools do. The LCME requires every allo med school to more or less cover the same core curriculum, although formats differ. Most programs experience is still that there is a very high correlation between the folks who did well in med school, particularly the second year, higher yield, subjects, and Step 1. Sure there will always be individuals who buck this trend and are outliers, but trends are trends, and the existence of outliers doesn't change the general rule.

Well, yeah there is a correlation. I know that top 10% at my school will do well on boards no matter what. They probably will be pacing with great scores before board prep begins. For those of us around the middle 1/3, that's not always the case and boards vs curriculum may come into play. Obviously the smartest in the class will do well on both boards/grades. Some schools have 4 tests during the entire 2nd year and some have 30 tests. That doesn't sound standardized or similar to me.

So the general rule is good test takers and memorizers will perform well in 2nd year and Step 1... Well, yeah.

 

[loveoforganic]

I study to learn all I can. That got me all passes first semester and all honors second semester. Whatever, I tried the best I could both semesters, I learned all I could both semesters, the grades matter for very little, and I don't stress myself with the numbers

 

[Oxer45]

Its kinda interesting that most hard working people in my class got into competitive residency at great places while the "take it easy" crowd had much harder time getting what they wanted. Doing well in class correlates with step 1 score cause step 1 tests understanding as well as memorization.

 

[Freddie Mercury]

acing med school has a high correlation with doing well on Step 1 and on the wards

Interesting... do you have any links regarding this correlation?

 

[KnuxNole]

Damn, maybe some schools are different, and have people who all want to gun at the beginning....

I only noticed maybe a few "gunners", but I don't think I ever once had the gunner mentality. The thing is, I KNEW med school was supposed to be insanely hard, so I was more focused on learning efficiently, studying more than I ever had in my life, and trying to have some balance in my life. The gunner mentality turns me off because it fosters people nitpicking over an 89 vs a 90 where I would be 🙄, take the 89 and run.

Getting A's are critical in undergrad, but med school is catered towards learning the material, since this is a professional school. You can argue getting A's in pre-clinicals are essential too...but eh idk. Not even 20% would get an "A" in a professional school, and every single person in med school wants to be a resident, and every year, tons of residents are produced with only Ps/Cs or few A's/H. Less than 20% gets an A in undergrad, but not every undergrad student intends to continue further education beyond college. I dunno if this paragraph is making sense as I type....but what I am trying to say is that I dont think people are gonna go crazy if they don't get an A/H in a med school class compared to college. And not everyone freaked out about not getting an A in college too(although having a low GPA DOES concern pre-meds due to the competitiveness of med school)

 

[illegallysmooth]

Interesting... do you have any links regarding this correlation?

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=common+sense&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

 

[KnuxNole]

lol it isn't always a causation 😛

I can perfectly understand someone who got all A's and barely passed Step 1 without batting an eye.

Same with someone who only got Cs or Passes and pulls out a 250.

 

[Gunneria]

I agree earlier...however, I'm making the reasonable assumption that correlation is BIASED by the top 10% AOA who probably are the photographic, above the top higher echelon people who blow every exam in sight....

As for the rest of us, there is a higher return on investment if you focus on board prep and just passing...practically speaking, I'd rather have more passes at First Aid, pathoma, Gunner training, and QBanks-UWorld, Kaplan, Rx than honor a class while having all the board relevant stuff fall out of the other ear. Trust me when I say this and I think it was an assumption I made that: med schools teach you more than you need for the boards = simply false. They teach you a lot, some that overlaps with First Aid and review books, and some which you don't need to know for the boards. That leaves you with stuff you didn't pick up from review books that force you to "self-learn" on the side. Hence, my whole gameplan has changed of just focusing purely on boards and just passing.

Now the ultimate goal should be to integrate board prep with courses but boards still come first and there's no need to be hard on yourself if you get those detailed board-irrelevant Qs WRONG and just pass while crushing the Qbanks...however, like I previously said, it VARIES by school based on the nature they test and prepare you

 

[Work]

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[KnuxNole]

I try not to say "grades don't matter" because then people would think I sleep all day 😛

Whatever phrase captures: "I care to learn about the material so I won't be a bad doc and kick ass on boards, but the mark I get won't bother me" I would use. But, I've gotten by so far with "Oh yeah, I think I did ok on that test...let's get drinks already!" and not disclosing numerical grades with peeps.

 

[pipe dream]

I would assume that if you want to be the best doctor possible you shoot for the highest grade possible. However, I can see that some will believe that entrance into medical school is their crowing achievement and shoot for the bare minimum. These people are in the minority in your class. With that said P/F school no AOA for the win.

Dude, are you even in mef school? How do you know what makes up the minority of the class? OP, doxycycline's post is right on the money. The minority is the group strving for A's. The rest of us want to learn amd do well on boards and have somewhat of a life in the meantime.

 

[Cole Trickle]

At my school, I feel like if I work on a qbank during 2nd year, it may decrease my chances at honors. So what's better, working through a qbank or two or going for honors?

 

[Wordead]

I was always gunning for an A, mostly because I'm competitive by nature and I did under average on the first set of exams and became incensed that my idiot classmates were doing better than me.

Would not really recommend this path, though. Just learn your **** and forget about the small details that you need for the A.

 

[Abider]

Many. But as a career changer who already had plenty of post-college years to "play" during my pre-med school life, I didn't really hang with the folks who didn't have their eye on the prize. And I certainly didn't ace med school, but always aimed high, gave it my best shot, kept every door open I could. At the end of the day you can't fault yourself for doing your best, but you certainly can, and should, if you close doors on yourself because you simply didn't feel like putting in the effort.

The trouble with assessments such as these is that they pertain to no one but the self. I've always had my eyes on the prize--me. As do you. I feel comfortable working hard but keeping myself together in a relaxed and composed manner. If I caved to the notion of working to impress everyone but me, I wouldn't be much of a me after all.

If being you means something differrent who am I say what's wrong with that. Keep doors open, why not. Why not a crack in the door to your own peace of mind, though. The trouble with saying something as common sense as that in the fever pitch competitiveness of medical school academics is that it makes you a Big Lebowski cartoon symbol.

But hey man....if I guessed wrong on the revelation that Derm is life-changingly wonderful. Then I lose. Oh well. I'll place my bets and enjoy the ride. But nothing is ever as simple as "taking it easy" in the med school game.

Work hard, of course, who doesn't. But I aim to always know where they stop and I begin. And in medicine the They is endless. So it makes for a particularly dull analogy to suggest that it's team slacker vs team AOA. Because it is mistrustful to a notion of balance and human fulfillment and professional work ethic. As if these are diametrically opposed.


I'll take the pass, but with an earnestness to learning as much as I can that I can make relevance to in the course of my work. I've never understood the persistent notion that teaching to the boards is some second rate Caribbean notion while the approach of sampling everything in medical science like an 18th century gentleman planter, is the blue blood badge of American excellence.

As a resident, how much do you remember about Anitschkow cells. I suspect I won't remember much either...in 2 weeks time or so. So where does that Paper chase lead on the way to getting the praise of others.

 

[greg1184]

The most frustrating thing I enountered in medical school is when I did really well (92) in a certain medical school exam, and then I see the distribution and find that it is actually the average for the class. When that happened, I decided not to burden myself with what everybody else is doing and did the best I can do. The curve is one big cluster**** with ~3-4pts (or 2-3 questions on an exam) separating each quartile. At the level of med school we are in the top of the students who were in college. So some of the stars in college are bound to end up in the wrong side of the curve.

 

[Abider]

The most frustrating thing I enountered in medical school is when I did really well (92) in a certain medical school exam, and then I see the distribution and find that it is actually the average for the class. When that happened, I decided not to burden myself with what everybody else is doing and did the best I can do. The curve is one big cluster**** with ~3-4pts (or 2-3 questions on an exam) separating each quartile. At the level of med school we are in the top of the students who were in college. So some of the stars in college are bound to end up in the wrong side of the curve.

Right, me too.

Sitting on the top end of a medical class is no f'n joke. Steep man.

So it's not like I would tell my buddy who is going for ortho to cool out, but while I'm going to the gym on the eve of a test to dissipate stress he's sweatin bullets in a hot seat I certainly don't envy much less elevate the primacy of.

 

[Law2Doc]

The trouble with assessments such as these is that they pertain to no one but the self. I've always had my eyes on the prize--me....

you may find yourself taking a very different view down the road.. if your prize is really you it should not just be you of the present, but also the you of the future. You don't want to be the guy pining "if only..." ten years from now. Don't be short sighted -- the squirrel that doesn't store acorns only to starve in the longer than expected winter.


It's really easy to create arguments to justify what "feels good" now, but you often regret things later. So pretty much any argument one makes about it not being worth it, or I only want to do enough to get into X specialty, or that I'll do better on Step 1 if I just read first aid/study qbank rather than try to do well in med school, is just spin. There are a million excuses to justify not trying. A few years from now you might regret making them. The only way you don't have regrets is if you know you put your best foot forward (regardless of the outcome).

 

[Law2Doc]

At my school, I feel like if I work on a qbank during 2nd year, it may decrease my chances at honors. So what's better, working through a qbank or two or going for honors?

Most schools give enough time between the end of second year and when you have to take Step 1 to get through the entire qbank. You certainly could do a few qbank questions a day during second year without cutting into second year studies too significantly. So its not really an either or. Do both.

 

[Cole Trickle]

Most schools give enough time between the end of second year and when you have to take Step 1 to get through the entire qbank. You certainly could do a few qbank questions a day during second year without cutting into second year studies too significantly. So its not really an either or. Do both.

I would not have admitted/realized this until a year of med school, but I may not be smart enough to do both.

 

[Abider]

you may find yourself taking a very different view down the road.. if your prize is really you it should not just be you of the present, but also the you of the future. You don't want to be the guy pining "if only..." ten years from now. Don't be short sighted -- the squirrel that doesn't store acorns only to starve in the longer than expected winter.


It's really easy to create arguments to justify what "feels good" now, but you often regret things later. So pretty much any argument one makes about it not being worth it, or I only want to do enough to get into X specialty, or that I'll do better on Step 1 if I just read first aid/study qbank rather than try to do well in med school, is just spin. There are a million excuses to justify not trying. A few years from now you might regret making them. The only way you don't have regrets is if you know you put your best foot forward (regardless of the outcome).

There is only you for you and I for I past present and future. Naked in, naked out. I don't see what else to prize. But one's peace of mind.

I am doing my best. And when duty calls I give of myself most heartily. But when I hit the wards in a couple of months, it will be duty that causes me to give my best and not the pursuit of esteem in the eyes of my superiors.

Because that is the pathos which you ignore.

Alright north-going zax. South-going zax has to study like a maniac. I'll revisit this question after I get my step score. Perhaps you'll be right. Perhaps not.

 

[operaman]

This is all such a personalized thing that it's hard to generalize. Overall, I think that most people would agree that the first chunk of study time is the biggest ROI in terms of points her hour, and past a certain point all of us see fewer and fewer points per additional hour invested. The decisions to be made then are very different depending on your own abilities and where your time/efforts land you. I think there's a case to be made for some situations wherein you might devote some of those less-lucrative study hours to other endeavors that would enhance future prospects (research, leadership roles, etc.).

 

[Dr Love]

The most frustrating thing I enountered in medical school is when I did really well (92) in a certain medical school exam, and then I see the distribution and find that it is actually the average for the class. When that happened, I decided not to burden myself with what everybody else is doing and did the best I can do. The curve is one big cluster**** with ~3-4pts (or 2-3 questions on an exam) separating each quartile. At the level of med school we are in the top of the students who were in college. So some of the stars in college are bound to end up in the wrong side of the curve.

Exactly. The reality is that med school exams are not designed to accurately separate someone in the top 10% from someone in the top 30%. They are designed to make sure all but the poorest students pass.

To answer OP's question, my school is P/F, but I can't imagine caring about grades regardless.

 

[FSU2013]

A wise man once said "If you aint first, you're last."

 

[grotto]

I think what you will find is that you will find somewhat of an equilibrium with school work, where hours and hours of extra work lead to increasingly diminishing returns in grades. I am an 88% to 92% kind of student - I never get grades below 88% and I never get grades above 92% (this is based on the class average curve - it might be a real 84-88 if the A cutoff is 86). The amount of work I need to do to get above a 92 is exponentially more than the amount of work than I need to do to stay in my area of equilibrium - I chose not to do that work based on family demands and having a fun time on the weekends (I would rarely study on weekends unless there was a big test coming up).

The first few exams you will overstudy and probably do okay, or you might do great, or you might do poorly - but you will eventually learn what your equilibrium is. There are some students whose equilibrium is up in the high 90's, there are some in the low 80's, and there are a very few who are constantly in danger of not passing.

I wouldn't worry about not learning medicine - you will have medicine shoved up your a__ whether you like it or not. The national exams ensure that you learn what is required to get through medical school. There are people who love to tell you how much they study and how they suffer like Prometheus for medicine... whatever. There are also people who love to tell you how little they study...they're probably lying. Study how much you feel you need to study, because you only need to answer to yourself for now.