Do/md/jd

[(nicedream)]

I know this doesn't really seem like the place for this, but there's no specific board for it and the readers here tend to be more knowledgable and mature than in the other areas.
I was wondering what sort of opportunities exist for someone that pursues a law degree following a medical degree. Medical malpractice law is an obvious one. Would it be possible to only defend physicians and not prosecute cases?
How lucrative is the field?
Does one usually obtain their medical license, or forego GME completely?
What other opportunities exist?
Have any of you considered the change?

Thanks in advance for any input.

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[f_w]

- specialty organizations, political lobbying, political action comittees
- administration, public health, goverment work
- medmal defense
- medmal plaintiff

 

[fedor]

I know this doesn't really seem like the place for this, but there's no specific board for it and the readers here tend to be more knowledgable and mature than in the other areas.
I was wondering what sort of opportunities exist for someone that pursues a law degree following a medical degree. Medical malpractice law is an obvious one. Would it be possible to only defend physicians and not prosecute cases?
How lucrative is the field?
Does one usually obtain their medical license, or forego GME completely?
What other opportunities exist?
Have any of you considered the change?

Thanks in advance for any input.

Medical malpractice defense attorneys are usually salaried employees of insurance companies. Few of these attorneys were at the top of their class at top law schools. Compensation tends to be nothing to brag about.

Medical malpractice attorneys for the plaintiffs are also rarely from the top of their class at the top schools. As much as these lawyers are looked down upon by doctors it is nowhere near how looked down upon they are by lawyers at the top firms. Compensation can be astronomical depending on how good you are. I worked on one political campaign where the candidate (malpractice lawyer, about 10 years in practice coming from a middle to lower tier law school) made $4 million the year before deciding to quit his practice and enter politics.

 

[edmadison]

Medical malpractice defense attorneys are usually salaried employees of insurance companies. Few of these attorneys were at the top of their class at top law schools. Compensation tends to be nothing to brag about.QUOTE]

Malpractice defense attorneys typically work in the litigation department of law firms. The insurance companies may have lawyers in their legal department who triage claim and make decisions early in the process. However, if a case is going toward court, law firms are employed. BTW, you make a very good living as an in house attorney for an insurance company. Also, the hours tend to be very good.

For the OP, you don't need a law degree to do med mal litigation, you need to be a good trial lawyer and be willing to hire people to teach you what you need to know. John Roberts was an exceptionally effective med mal attorney, from what I know, he has no medical background.

Ed.

 

[njbmd]

Hey there,
I am working on an executive JD at the moment. I plan to be the managing partner in my practice group. I am also very active in healthcare legislative reform. There are lots of things to do with a MD/DO + JD that do not necessarily involve malpractice especially if one has no interest in being a litigator. A JD like an MD/DO means options.

njbmd 🙂

 

[PublicHealth]

Where's ProZack?

 

[(nicedream)]

For the OP, you don't need a law degree to do med mal litigation, you need to be a good trial lawyer and be willing to hire people to teach you what you need to know. John Roberts was an exceptionally effective med mal attorney, from what I know, he has no medical background.

Ed.

You mean you don't need a medical degree? I realize that, but I am already in medical school and just considering law school now. I would finish medschool.

What about a medical license, I guess that wouldn't matter at all...so no GME.

 

[Orange Julius]

Hey there,
I am working on an executive JD at the moment. I plan to be the managing partner in my practice group. I am also very active in healthcare legislative reform. There are lots of things to do with a MD/DO + JD that do not necessarily involve malpractice especially if one has no interest in being a litigator. A JD like an MD/DO means options.

njbmd 🙂

Hey, njbmd. I thought you were a surgery resident. Don't know where I got that idea. Are you saying you are doing a JD while in residency? is that instead of research? Is that even possible?

How long does it take for an md to get a jd?

 

[lilycat]

Medical malpractice defense attorneys are usually salaried employees of insurance companies. Few of these attorneys were at the top of their class at top law schools. Compensation tends to be nothing to brag about.

Medical malpractice attorneys for the plaintiffs are also rarely from the top of their class at the top schools. As much as these lawyers are looked down upon by doctors it is nowhere near how looked down upon they are by lawyers at the top firms. Compensation can be astronomical depending on how good you are. I worked on one political campaign where the candidate (malpractice lawyer, about 10 years in practice coming from a middle to lower tier law school) made $4 million the year before deciding to quit his practice and enter politics.

I'll just reiterate what edmadison said (knowing several attorneys who practice medmal, especially medmal defense). These attorneys who actually try the cases are either in the litigation department of large firms, or some smaller firms focus about 80% of their practice around medmal defense, and have contracts with the insurance companies where they are the primary firm that litigates these cases.

I'm not sure why the comment about placement in law school class or type of law school attended for medmal practice was considered relevant to this discussion, but I'm curious what your sources were for this statement or if you can back them up (assuming they are not purely anecdotal). For what it's worth, of the five attorneys I personally know in this field, two were law review at Top law schools (U. Chicago, Yale), one went to another Top law school but I don't know rank in class (UVa), and the other two were law review at mid-tier schools. Just to clarify, law review is sort of the equivalent of AOA in med school. None of them are hurting compensation-wise.

Also, there's always the example of John Edwards -- no medical background, JD from UNC with Honors, and made his entire fortune in medmal plaintiff cases.

 

[Orange Julius]

.

 

[blotto geltaco]

Also, there's always the example of John Edwards -- no medical background, JD from UNC with Honors, and made his entire fortune in medmal plaintiff cases.

Not true

He made his fortune from product liability, personal injury and MVC's as well.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Not true

He made his fortune from product liability, personal injury and MVC's as well.

VERY TRUE....That scumbag had verdicts and settlements of over $60M in medical malpractice. Seeing how lawyers get 1/3 his firm got $20M.. Not too shabby of a job screwing MDs.

From your link

Another specialty Edwards developed was in medical malpractice cases involving problems during births of babies. According to the New York Times, after Edwards won a $6.5M verdict for a baby born with cerbral-palsy, he filed at least 20 similar lawsuits against doctors and hospitals in deliveries gone wrong, winning verdicts and settlements of more than $60M.

BTW most of the CP cases are due to not C-sectioning someone fast enough. So as our rates of C sections have nearly tripled in 30 yrs somehow the ratio of CP babies is unchanged. He is suiing for mistakes OBs cant fix. SCUM!

From that SAME link ~35M in PERSONAL INJURY & PRODUCT LIABILITY CASES, (of course the site is only the highlights) and then 17M in MVC injuries. So $60M from MDs and 52M from his "other stuff"...

Be honest...

 

[blotto geltaco]

Take it easy big fella, I was simply pointing out an obvious inaccuracy. I'm a doctor too.

 

[f_w]

The reason why medmal defense attorneys make less than lets say general contract attorneys is the market. The liability insurers shop for 'block time'. They go to these larger law offices and buy a couple of thousand billable hours at a time. And because there is an oversupply of attorneys in this country, the big offices active in this market compete for the business and discount their rates accordingly.
If a regular attorney costs you $300 per hour in some markets (e.g. to negotiate your partnership contract), a medmal defense guy will go for $175 per hour.

Attorneys who want to work in criminal defense will work as assistant district attorney in some rural county for a pitance for a couple of years. Others will put up with the meager pay in the corporate medmal defense world in order to gain the experience in that particular field (it is sort of their residency). If you want to become a high-end ambulance chaser, it helps to gain some experience in the trenches first. The ones who stay with the medmal defense firms try to climb the corporate ranks. Once you supervise a couple of the worker-bees your rates go up as well.

Probably 98% of hours spend on medmal cases is NOT standing in the courtroom and re-enacting the cries of an oxygen starved baby. It is writing long briefs and filings, standing in line at the courthouse, sitting through incredibly painful depositions and so on. It is far less glamorous than TV would make us believe it is.

 

[fedor]

I'm not sure why the comment about placement in law school class or type of law school attended for medmal practice was considered relevant to this discussion, but I'm curious what your sources were for this statement or if you can back them up (assuming they are not purely anecdotal). For what it's worth, of the five attorneys I personally know in this field, two were law review at Top law schools (U. Chicago, Yale), one went to another Top law school but I don't know rank in class (UVa), and the other two were law review at mid-tier schools. Just to clarify, law review is sort of the equivalent of AOA in med school. None of them are hurting compensation-wise.

Also, there's always the example of John Edwards -- no medical background, JD from UNC with Honors, and made his entire fortune in medmal plaintiff cases.

Our disagreement stems from what we consider top-tier. Edwards graduated from UNC, which is currently ranked #27 according to US News & World Report, which hardly invalidates my claim that med-mal isn't the elite of the legal world. He made quite a bit of money despite not having the best pedigree when it comes to legal education -- which is quite common in the med-mal plaintiff attorney world.

Much like you will occasionally see someone who graduated top in their medical school class at Hopkins or Harvard enter a family practice residency in a rural state, it's the exception and not the rule. The top students at Yale, Harvard, Stanford, etc., rarely enter med-mal. They have bigger fish to fry. How many of the top law firms like Skadden or Cravath even get involved in medical malpractice cases? None.

I stand by my comments despite your anecdotal evidence. If can post some statistics countering my claim, please do so.

 

[lilycat]

Our disagreement stems from what we consider top-tier. Edwards graduated from UNC, which is currently ranked #27 according to US News & World Report, which hardly invalidates my claim that med-mal isn't the elite of the legal world. He made quite a bit of money despite not having the best pedigree when it comes to legal education -- which is quite common in the med-mal plaintiff attorney world.

Much like you will occasionally see someone who graduated top in their medical school class at Hopkins or Harvard enter a family practice residency in a rural state, it's the exception and not the rule. The top students at Yale, Harvard, Stanford, etc., rarely enter med-mal. They have bigger fish to fry. How many of the top law firms like Skadden or Cravath even get involved in medical malpractice cases? None.

I stand by my comments despite your anecdotal evidence. If can post some statistics countering my claim, please do so.

You can stand by your comments; what I object to is the tone in which you made your comments -- essentially stating that as fact. Where do you get that information? Do you have a particular source? If so, what is that source? Is it anecdotal? If so, perhaps it would be more beneficial to state that. Edmadison (who is a JD) already pointed out the inaccuracy in what you stated were the work conditions of the majority of medmal defense lawyers. If you are going to attempt to speak with such certainty, perhaps YOU can post some statistics to back up your claims. I already stated that my original comments were purely anecdotal, which should help people in choosing how much stock they want to place in my information.

So, beyond anecdotess, most of these are not strictly medmal, but some of their health care law practices are fairly broad, it would be hard to imagine that medmal never comes into play. And some do specify medmal as well. Also, going back to the original question, there is a wide range of medical-legal practice:

Since you mentioned Skadden...
Skadden Health Care Fraud & Abuse .

Vinson & Elkins Healtcare Litigation

Fulbright & Jaworski liability and malpractice

Fulbright & Jaworski Health Care practice

Latham & Watkins

Kirkland & Ellis

Also, since you seem concerned with the "prestige" issue, all of these firms are on Vault.com's "Top 100 Most Prestigious Firms" list, 2006. More specifically, all of these firms are actually in the top 50 on that list, with the exception of V&E, which is #51. My impression, having friends who are now "baby lawyers" at some of these very firms, is that these "prestige" firms typically only recruit only the best of the best, concentrating on the "top ten" schools, or on the top grads from schools beyond the "top ten," but perhaps you may disagree.

 

[lilycat]

Take it easy big fella, I was simply pointing out an obvious inaccuracy. I'm a doctor too.

So sorry. Rather than saying "John Edwards made his entire fortune on medmal plaintiff cases," I should have said "John Edwards made the majority of his fortune on medmal plaintiff cases, although much of his notoriety as a personal injury attorny is due to swimming pool drain cases." Will you accept this correction?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

...
What other opportunities exist?

QUOTE]

Forensic psychiatry

 

[blotto geltaco]

So sorry. Rather than saying "John Edwards made his entire fortune on medmal plaintiff cases," I should have said "John Edwards made the majority of his fortune on medmal plaintiff cases, although much of his notoriety as a personal injury attorny is due to swimming pool drain cases." Will you accept this correction?

I will accept the fact that you made an inaccurate statement that I corrected. Cheers.

 

[lilycat]

I will accept the fact that you made an inaccurate statement that I corrected. Cheers.

Anything to keep you happy. And it did make quite a difference, since it was an "obvious inaccuracy," to more specifically quote you. Ah, sweet relief.

 

[medlaw06]

I know this doesn't really seem like the place for this, but there's no specific board for it and the readers here tend to be more knowledgable and mature than in the other areas.
I was wondering what sort of opportunities exist for someone that pursues a law degree following a medical degree. Medical malpractice law is an obvious one. Would it be possible to only defend physicians and not prosecute cases?
How lucrative is the field?
Does one usually obtain their medical license, or forego GME completely?
What other opportunities exist?
Have any of you considered the change?

Thanks in advance for any input.

het nicedreams....I am a DO/JD 4th year student and I LOVE IT!!!!!! I really think that the JD added a nice touch to my eventual medical practice....

in any case, there are alot of things that lawyers do that are NOT litigation related...there's an entire branch of law dealing with transactional stuff, tax exemptions, joint ventures and such....true...you can get an tax person to do that, but there are other things that are involved, such as the law behind the transaction stuff....if I decide to go into an ASC (Ambulatory Surgical Center), I can do things related to joint ventures w/ med schools to potentially decrease getting taxed (501c-3 for you MBA folks)....i can do expert witness (CHA-CHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and will get paid $$$ for that since I have a better understanding of where the line of questioning by the opposing counsel is leading towards and so I can phrase answers (IN THE ETHICAL REALM OF COURSE!!!!) to derail the oppositions argument....IT's ALL A BIG CHESS GAME!!!!...As someone mentioned earlier, I can go into politics and lobbying.....

however, in MY personal life, I plan on using it to protect me and my future colleagues against frivlous lawsuits since I have a better understanding of elements of negligence, the level of "guilt" needed to lose a case (beyond a reasonable doubt, etc.), and other things like proper documentation....and I plan on teaching others (whether it be future med students, residents, interns, etc.)....you can also do hospital administration when people like JHACO come over...corporate compliance stuff is also a possibility....

if you wanna sell your soul....plaintiff's atty is a possibility

just a few things....there are more options avalable, but I would have to think about it...

nonetheless....DEFINITELY WORTH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[(nicedream)]

het nicedreams....I am a DO/JD 4th year student and I LOVE IT!!!!!! I really think that the JD added a nice touch to my eventual medical practice....

in any case, there are alot of things that lawyers do that are NOT litigation related...there's an entire branch of law dealing with transactional stuff, tax exemptions, joint ventures and such....true...you can get an tax person to do that, but there are other things that are involved, such as the law behind the transaction stuff....if I decide to go into an ASC (Ambulatory Surgical Center), I can do things related to joint ventures w/ med schools to potentially decrease getting taxed (501c-3 for you MBA folks)....i can do expert witness (CHA-CHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and will get paid $$$ for that since I have a better understanding of where the line of questioning by the opposing counsel is leading towards and so I can phrase answers (IN THE ETHICAL REALM OF COURSE!!!!) to derail the oppositions argument....IT's ALL A BIG CHESS GAME!!!!...As someone mentioned earlier, I can go into politics and lobbying.....

however, in MY personal life, I plan on using it to protect me and my future colleagues against frivlous lawsuits since I have a better understanding of elements of negligence, the level of "guilt" needed to lose a case (beyond a reasonable doubt, etc.), and other things like proper documentation....and I plan on teaching others (whether it be future med students, residents, interns, etc.)....you can also do hospital administration when people like JHACO come over...corporate compliance stuff is also a possibility....

if you wanna sell your soul....plaintiff's atty is a possibility

just a few things....there are more options avalable, but I would have to think about it...

nonetheless....DEFINITELY WORTH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the info. Are you in a combined program?
In my case, I would be starting lawschool after medschool (currently a medstudent), so it would be a big commitment financially (more debt) and timewise (more school). I think it would also preclude me practicing medicine subsequently since I would be taking 3 yrs off from medicine and not doing GME. I suppose I could return, but I would be quite out of practice.

 

[medlaw06]

Thanks for the info. Are you in a combined program?
In my case, I would be starting lawschool after medschool (currently a medstudent), so it would be a big commitment financially (more debt) and timewise (more school). I think it would also preclude me practicing medicine subsequently since I would be taking 3 yrs off from medicine and not doing GME. I suppose I could return, but I would be quite out of practice.

hey nicedreams..yes, I am in a combined 6 year program in which I split it up 2-2-2 (2 years basic sciences, 2 years law school--typically 3, but due to it being a combined program, law school waived 12 credits and I took summer classes to bring it down to 2, and then [FINALLY!!!] 2 years clinical rotations....another 1 of my friends here started his law school AFTER finishing his 3rd year, so this way he can still be "close" to medicine....

I agree that if you decide to go to law school AFTER med school, it may hamper your chances for residency...HOWEVER, you can try to get your JD later on as well (AFTER residency) by doing a PT program...actually, there was a CT surgeon at my law school who was a PT law school student...it takes 4 years to get the JD if done PT...

Debt...well...we won't talk about that....OK...TIME TO DRINK TO NUMB THE PAIN!!! 😍