Do med students and physicians dress inappropriately?

[whistler]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/21/health/21essa.html?em&ex=1164258000&en=f5a245febff51524&ei=5087

I kind of felt the same thing when I walk through the hospital, doctors come in jeans, and dress like they just woke up. How do inspire trust when your patient doesn't even like you before you utter a word?

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[signomi]

There was a med student from Tufts that worse low rise pants. Every time she sat down the world saw her ass crack. Just wait until she leaned forward in her chair! The whole view!
God we mocked her mercilessly when she left.

 

[Miami_med]

Ah, the joys of being a student at Miami .

 

[deleted109597]

They do on House. Isn't that realistic?

 

[toofache32]

There was a med student from Tufts that worse low rise pants. Every time she sat down the world saw her ass crack. Just wait until she leaned forward in her chair! The whole view!
God we mocked her mercilessly when she left.

God love her....

 

[dynx]

There was a med student from Tufts that worse low rise pants. Every time she sat down the world saw her ass crack. Just wait until she leaned forward in her chair! The whole view!
God we mocked her mercilessly when she left.

Okay, tell me if im right...

YOU are an OB/Gyn person and ugly...and bitter.
She (if there is a god in heaven) will be going into surgery and was hot...
Am I right? Im right aren't I?

 

[mig26x]

There was a med student from Tufts that worse low rise pants. Every time she sat down the world saw her ass crack. Just wait until she leaned forward in her chair! The whole view!
God we mocked her mercilessly when she left.

was she hot???

 

[MichiMO]

Okay, tell me if im right...

YOU are an OB/Gyn person and ugly...and bitter.
She (if there is a god in heaven) will be going into surgery and was hot...
Am I right? Im right aren't I?

Okay, you don't have to be ugly/bitter to not appreciate an ass crack being presented for your view...regardless of the sex of the crack

Second....OB/Gyn ugly and bitter are not a synonymous! Let me guess...you are a dumb ortho guy who runs around doing chest buts with your other manly men

In seriousness, I think it does bring down the respectability of the profession as a whole when people dress more like they are going to the night club than a day at the clinic. And women, I am sorry to say, I think we have more of a responsibility to dress professionally. I know when I see a fellow student in a mini skirt or showing too much skin, I feel that this is one of the reasons that I get treated differently than my male counterparts. You have got to look the part if you want to be taken seriously...right or wrong...and women have an uphill battle in this regard.

 

[Samoa]

part of the problem is that because men's clothes are more uniform, and frankly are more geared toward appropriate work attire, it's easier for them to find clothes. Right now it's very hard for women to find clothes that are appropriate in a medical setting but not frumpy.

 

[ekydrd]

part of the problem is that because men's clothes are more uniform, and frankly are more geared toward appropriate work attire, it's easier for them to find clothes. Right now it's very hard for women to find clothes that are appropriate in a medical setting but not frumpy.

Not that hard. A nice pair of dress pants or knee length skirt and button up shirt or nice pull over top is all it takes. Not too expensive, not frumpy if they fit correctly, and not hard to find. I recently added to my wardrobe by purchasing several pairs of nice JCPenney dress pants and a variety of tops that can be mixed and matched with different pants. Easy and not too pricey. I'm tall and it's very hard for me to find clothes that fit properly so I love Penney's. Avoiding fadish clothes is the hard part. Those do not look good on all people.

 

[dynx]

Okay, you don't have to be ugly/bitter to not appreciate an ass crack being presented for your view...regardless of the sex of the crack.

Second....OB/Gyn ugly and bitter are not a synonymous! Let me guess...you are a dumb ortho guy who runs around doing chest buts with your other manly men

In seriousness, I think it does bring down the respectability of the profession as a whole when people dress more like they are going to the night club than a day at the clinic. And women, I am sorry to say, I think we have more of a responsibility to dress professionally. I know when I see a fellow student in a mini skirt or showing too much skin, I feel that this is one of the reasons that I get treated differently than my male counterparts. You have got to look the part if you want to be taken seriously...right or wrong...and women have an uphill battle in this regard.

I stick to high-fives. Much more profesional. But she still hasn't told me if im right yet!

 

[Winged Scapula]

I think part of the problem is that young physicians and medical students may not have been taught (by their parents, past employers, older siblings, etc.) what is appropriate professional wear. Most of the men get it - I have had more trouble with female medical students understanding what is appropriate and what is not, in the hospital.

The comment above about is being hard to find things that aren't "frumpy" is a perfect example of this. Many young women define trousers which have a rise longer than 1.5 inches, or flat shoes, or blouses that cover their belly as frumpy. Not so. This is considered professional wear and appropriate for the medical culture. If patients and co-workers are distracted by your belly ring, cleavage, thighs, or butt crack, your words - no matter how intelligent you are, will be lost. If you must wear low rise trousers, multiple piercings or blue hair, then perhaps a job at Blockbuster is more your speed, IMHO.

Lest you think I am of the hair in a bun and eyeglass wearing type, I am far from it. I actually noticed that "appearance" is a category on our fellowship ranking score - and it doesn't only include "neat, clean and professional" but some fields (plastics, derm come to mind) where being a little more stylish is appropriate. I've been known to wear velvet blazers, dangly earrings. flowing hair and nice trousers to work - without being called "nerdy" or unprofessional.

But then this has been a pet peeve of mine - ever since I had to talk with some medical students about what is appropriate to wear on rounds.

 

[BeatrixKiddo]

It's this liberating of women that's the problem.

 

[deleted87716]

Avoiding fadish clothes is the hard part. Those do not look good on all people.

The trouble is, when someone thinks they actually look good in a midriff top and low-waisted pants in the first place (this combo tends to make most women look cylindrical), why should we expect them to automatically know how to dress professionally at work?

 

[EUA]

I'm a young, "trendy" woman with occasionally bright hair colors and a number of (hidden) tattoos but I still find the way the women are dressing unprofessional and inappropriate. I honestly do not know what these people are thinking, my favorite being open toed high heels in a pathology laboratory setting or long hair not tied back dangling in bloody specimens. It's not only kind of gross, but also an OSHA violation. Low-rise pants with thongs hanging out... come on, people. I don't even want to hear about it when women start complaining about not being taken seriously, or complain about remarks made by male patients or colleagues.

And I fully disagree that professional, unfrumpy clothes don't exist -- Old Navy has cute, cheap, yet professional clothes. If you have the cash, places like J. Crew and Banana Republic have gorgeous work clothes that don't have cleavage and bellies hanging out.

Above all, I really don't understand why anyone would want to get dressed up in heels or boobie tops in a hospital or clinic. It's WORK, not a bar.

 

[BeatrixKiddo]

I'm a young, "trendy" woman with occasionally bright hair colors and a number of (hidden) tattoos but I still find the way the women are dressing unprofessional and inappropriate. I honestly do not know what these people are thinking, my favorite being open toed high heels in a pathology laboratory setting or long hair not tied back dangling in bloody specimens. It's not only kind of gross, but also an OSHA violation. Low-rise pants with thongs hanging out... come on, people. I don't even want to hear about it when women start complaining about not being taken seriously, or complain about remarks made by male patients or colleagues.

And I fully disagree that professional, unfrumpy clothes don't exist -- Old Navy has cute, cheap, yet professional clothes. If you have the cash, places like J. Crew and Banana Republic have gorgeous work clothes that don't have cleavage and bellies hanging out.

Above all, I really don't understand why anyone would want to get dressed up in heels or boobie tops in a hospital or clinic. It's WORK, not a bar.

I know, seriously. What kind of self esteem issues must these girls have if they dress like that anyway. I think work is a great opportunity to give your eyes a rest from colored contacts, wear comfortable shoes, be professional and put your mind and ideas for people to see, and save the primping for parties and social occasions. I think girls who say "I do it for myself, not others" are just fooling themselves. If you want to do something for yourself, get a massage.

 

[Apollyon]

I remember a Mt. Sinai IM resident when I was prelim IM that had gone to Yale for med school and - invariably - looked like a vagrant when she came in. When she was on call, it was even worse - with the clothes and the unkempt hair, only the absence of the smell of urine differentiated her from the lower socioeconomic stratum of the patient clientele. She was also a little weird, which I think colored my perception of Yalies being weird. What's worse was that she was a PGY-3. Fortunately, her colleagues didn't maintain that standard.

When I went to Duke, it was a different story - I only saw one episode in 3 years of inappropriate dress, and that was a prelim IM woman who was exposing her cleavage (and, as a female nurse said, "it's not pretty cleavage"). Otherwise, it was very stylish people (I wasn't the only one wearing French cuffs), and the most common remark was, "Wow - I wish I could wear something like that" (meaning very stylish).

 

[Hurricane]

I think part of the problem is that young physicians and medical students may not have been taught (by their parents, past employers, older siblings, etc.) what is appropriate professional wear. Most of the men get it - I have had more trouble with female medical students understanding what is appropriate and what is not, in the hospital.

Really though, there's not much for the men to get. Pants, shirt with a collar, tie, shoes that are not sneakers. Men's pants and shirts are pretty much the same with minor differences in pleats or whatever. A guy has to try really really hard to mess that up and come off looking unprofessional.

Women's clothes OTOH are much more varied. Everyone pretty much agrees that suit = professional. But that's too formal - and impractical - for the everyday medical setting. So a woman needs to wear pants and a top and shoes that are not sneakers. Pants come in low rise, at the waist, at the hip, etc in slim cut, boot cut, flare leg, etc. Tops can be tailored, form fitting, loose fitting, collared, scoop neck, v-neck, etc. Don't even get me started on shoes. The permuations are endless. So women have to think more about what to wear, and there's much more room for error. And I agree with you that problems arise when women don't have a sense for what is and isn't professional. But it's not because they are stupider or more ignorant than the guys, because they really don't have to think about the issue that much.

As for me, I don't care if I look frumpy as long as my feet don't hurt.

 

[nocallaochicas]

I too think that females too often guilty of poor dress. Basic sciences --> wear whatever you want. Clnical --> dress appropriately and do not show much or anything between shirt and pants.

However, I hope things don't change because dress codes often limit the amount of time scrubs are allowed. I would much rather see women who dress for the bar get less respect by clinicians and patients than loose my precious scrubs.
ncc

 

[BeatrixKiddo]

Really though, there's not much for the men to get. Pants, shirt with a collar, tie, shoes that are not sneakers. Men's pants and shirts are pretty much the same with minor differences in pleats or whatever. A guy has to try really really hard to mess that up and come off looking unprofessional.

Women's clothes OTOH are much more varied. Everyone pretty much agrees that suit = professional. But that's too formal - and impractical - for the everyday medical setting. So a woman needs to wear pants and a top and shoes that are not sneakers. Pants come in low rise, at the waist, at the hip, etc in slim cut, boot cut, flare leg, etc. Tops can be tailored, form fitting, loose fitting, collared, scoop neck, v-neck, etc. Don't even get me started on shoes. The permuations are endless. So women have to think more about what to wear, and there's much more room for error. And I agree with you that problems arise when women don't have a sense for what is and isn't professional. But it's not because they are stupider or more ignorant than the guys, because they really don't have to think about the issue that much.

As for me, I don't care if I look frumpy as long as my feet don't hurt.

If a girl is really confused, she can also wear the basic things a guy would wear, slacks and a button up.

 

[Miami_med]

Honestly,

I think that there is a general misunderstanding about professional dress in my generation. The next generation is worse. I do recall one article I was reading about college interviews where a girl showed up to an Ivy League interview in a miniskirt with wet and unkempt hair. Most medical students (with some obvious exceptions) have never held real jobs and have had NO exposure whatsoever to a sense of fashion that extends beyond the crap that people throw on 10 minutes before class in college.

Women really have a lot of advantage with the flexibility in dress. Most men are stuck in tight necked shirts with ties "that are no longer mandatory." I think women can honestly get away with just about anything that starts below the knee and covers everything below the top of the cleavage. This of course comes with the added disclaimer that none of the clothing should be totally transparent. That may be a uniquely Miami thing though.

 

[erichaj]

I think part of the problem is that young physicians and medical students may not have been taught (by their parents, past employers, older siblings, etc.) what is appropriate professional wear. Most of the men get it - I have had more trouble with female medical students understanding what is appropriate and what is not, in the hospital.

The comment above about is being hard to find things that aren't "frumpy" is a perfect example of this. Many young women define trousers which have a rise longer than 1.5 inches, or flat shoes, or blouses that cover their belly as frumpy. Not so. This is considered professional wear and appropriate for the medical culture. If patients and co-workers are distracted by your belly ring, cleavage, thighs, or butt crack, your words - no matter how intelligent you are, will be lost. If you must wear low rise trousers, multiple piercings or blue hair, then perhaps a job at Blockbuster is more your speed, IMHO.

Lest you think I am of the hair in a bun and eyeglass wearing type, I am far from it. I actually noticed that "appearance" is a category on our fellowship ranking score - and it doesn't only include "neat, clean and professional" but some fields (plastics, derm come to mind) where being a little more stylish is appropriate. I've been known to wear velvet blazers, dangly earrings. flowing hair and nice trousers to work - without being called "nerdy" or unprofessional.

But then this has been a pet peeve of mine - ever since I had to talk with some medical students about what is appropriate to wear on rounds.

Do you show your butt crack? Is it nice?

 

[beyond all hope]

I am between both worlds.

In the real world I am a man who wears an earring, and dresses anything from conservative to punk to eurotrash. I like to think I'm fashionable but it's unlikely. I often sport stubble, a beard or a van ****.

When I'm an attending in the ED for a academic tertiary care center in an affluent suburb. I wear scrub tops, cargo pants and a white coat. I take the earring out. I try to be clean-shaven.

It's not for the administrators or for my boss. It's for the patients. Patients really want a doctor who looks like a doctor. They are at their most vulnerable and they want to have complete trust in you. That's why I do it.

 

[erichaj]

That is it.

I'm going to be a rebel again.

I will start by showing up to clinic without wearing any underwear. AND I will take the penis ring out too.

 

[angel80]

One thing that really bothers me is when women wear skirts above the knee, without any pantyhose, and open toes shoes in the hospital. Now I hate pantyhose, and am the last person you will ever see wearing them when I wear a skirt/dress outside of the work setting. I don't think it's professional to have bare legs though.

I am between both worlds.

In the real world I am a man who wears an earring, and dresses anything from conservative to punk to eurotrash. I like to think I'm fashionable but it's unlikely. I often sport stubble, a beard or a van ****.

When I'm an attending in the ED for a academic tertiary care center in an affluent suburb. I wear scrub tops, cargo pants and a white coat. I take the earring out. I try to be clean-shaven.

It's not for the administrators or for my boss. It's for the patients. Patients really want a doctor who looks like a doctor. They are at their most vulnerable and they want to have complete trust in you. That's why I do it.

 

[Leukocyte]

...women can honestly get away with just about anything that starts below the knee and covers everything below the top of the cleavage.....

But not from someone who has a foot fetish!

 

[toofache32]

...If patients and co-workers are distracted by your belly ring, cleavage, thighs, or butt crack, your words - no matter how intelligent you are, will be lost...

Oooooh I wish I could be distracted. I should get out more....

...I think girls who say "I do it for myself, not others" are just fooling themselves...

Exactly. Girls don't dress up for guys as much as they dress up for other girls.

 

[efex101]

This by no means is exclusive to warmer weather areas. There are plenty of nice clothes for women that can still be professional. I have seen my share of belly bearing, cleavage hanging out, thong exposure to last me for a lifetime. I see this every day. I do not understand how some women can show up so disheveled that you wonder are they the patient? I think part of the problem is the consultants/attendings. In this PC world NOBODY has taken the time to maybe point this out? either in person or via eval? I mean for crying out loud they will write down on eval "student needs to read more" but God forbid they write down "student looks unprofessional and needs to work on XYX"

 

[8744]

How about those goddamn slackers who run around the hospital in....and if you have a heart condition stop reading this post....who run around the hospital in scrubs, sometimes only covering the infernal things with their white coats.


Talk about unprofessional. How dare they wear PJs to work.

 

[deleted87716]

How about those...slackers who run around the hospital in...scrubs... How dare they wear PJs to work.

I know most people love their scrubs, but honestly...they really did make me feel like I had pajamas on. When I took overnight call, I usually compromised by wearing a scrub top over a t-shirt and khakis (the infamous "ER" look...the show, not the department). That way, I was at least splatter-proof from the waist up (bed height).

 

[Samoa]

Actually, professional appearance is an area where I've never gotten less than a 5/5. I worked for a number of years before medical school, so I do know how to dress. And I like to dress in trendy but professional clothes, and pretty much always have done so at work.

Because of that, I feel pretty justified in saying that it is currently much harder than it used to be to find clothes that are both trendy and appropriate to wear in a hospital setting.

Most of the people disagreeing with me began working AFTER this became an issue, and so don't really have a good standard for comparison. So I stand by my statement.

 

[Whodathunkit]

And since we are on the topic of appropriate dress. I've always heard differing opinions on the tie vs no-tie. What say you? I don't mind wearing ties, although they are rather constrictive. And every time I buy a new one(because invariably it becomes "dirty"), I think...great, I just spent money on a new fomite. Yea Fomites! This should be a tax write off.

Besides, if patients expect us to dress a certain way is there a possibility that we should expect the same from them. If you know you're going to the hospital for an exam could you possibly take a shower, or wash your feet, or at least put on some clean underwear. Didn't people grow up telling you to always wear clean undies when you leave the house? How about we do a NY Times article about that?

 

[BeatrixKiddo]

And since we are on the topic of appropriate dress. I've always heard differing opinions on the tie vs no-tie. What say you? I don't mind wearing ties, although they are rather constrictive. And every time I buy a new one(because invariably it becomes "dirty"), I think...great, I just spent money on a new fomite. Yea Fomites! This should be a tax write off.

Besides, if patients expect us to dress a certain way is there a possibility that we should expect the same from them. If you know you're going to the hospital for an exam could you possibly take a shower, or wash your feet, or at least put on some clean underwear. Didn't people grow up telling you to always wear clean undies when you leave the house? How about we do a NY Times article about that?

I think getting your white jacket dry cleaned is a tax write off, I know doctors who do that.

Anyway, yeah, patients dress bad too, they should wear their Sunday best for appointments. Not.

Well, when I worked in a physicians office, the physician did ask one of the patients to dress better next time because it was some fat lady with like a bikini top. Her excuse was they were going to the beach later but the physician said "you're not there now so please dress appropriately next time". I don't think she was offended, people know what they should wear but they'll push the limits unless someone let's them know that they notice.

 

[Hard24Get]

I know most people love their scrubs, but honestly...they really did make me feel like I had pajamas on. When I took overnight call, I usually compromised by wearing a scrub top over a t-shirt and khakis (the infamous "ER" look...the show, not the department). That way, I was at least splatter-proof from the waist up (bed height).

I wear my scrubs with my white coat proudly, because I will have my professional overcoat but ALWAYS be ready to get down and dirty for the sake of someone's health (and my own education). I shant wear anything else. Besides, if the job doesn't require scrubs, then it's probably not the speciatly for me.

That being said, I dress up for non-invasive rotations and think the sweater and scrubs crowd if carrying it too far.

 

[Whodathunkit]

Anyway, yeah, patients dress bad too, they should wear their Sunday best for appointments. Not.

I'm not asking for Sunday's best...just clean.

 

[Whodathunkit]

I wear my scrubs with my white coat proudly, because I will have my professional overcoat but ALWAYS be ready to get down and dirty for the sake of someone's health (and my own education). I shant wear anything else. Besides, if the job doesn't require scrubs, then it's probably not the speciatly for me.

That being said, I dress up for non-invasive rotations and think the sweater and scrubs crowd if carrying it too far.

I know of a fair amount of surgery programs(General, Ortho, and Neurosurgery) that let their residents wear scrubs freely...but when it's time for CLINIC they must wear a shirt and tie. I actually find that admirable anc consider it very professional. You don't need to wear scrubs to clinic. I've found the ENT guys to sometimes be the most well dressed of the surgical specialties.

 

[toofache32]

I know of a fair amount of surgery programs(General, Ortho, and Neurosurgery) that let their residents wear scrubs freely...but when it's time for CLINIC they must wear a shirt and tie. I actually find that admirable anc consider it very professional. You don't need to wear scrubs to clinic. I've found the ENT guys to sometimes be the most well dressed of the surgical specialties.

I don't have a problem with ties, I just have a problem changing clothes several times a day. That's a huge pet peeve of mine.

 

[Surgeon24]

Lest you think I am of the hair in a bun and eyeglass wearing type, I am far from it.

Stop being so indirect and tell us you're hot already.

 

[tiredmom]

One thing that really bothers me is when women wear skirts above the knee, without any pantyhose, and open toes shoes in the hospital. Now I hate pantyhose, and am the last person you will ever see wearing them when I wear a skirt/dress outside of the work setting. I don't think it's professional to have bare legs though.

I'll disagree on the bare legs. I do wear skirts (knee length or below) to both clinic and hospital. There is NO way you could get me in pantyhose for either site. It's too darn hot and uncomfortable, plus it would just look funny with the styles of skirts I wear. You don't see pantyhose here in Texas unless its on an elderly lady or somebody trying to rob the gas station. Open toes are out for me at the hospital, but sometimes I will at clinic if it's not a messy clinic.

 

[Apollyon]

I usually compromised by wearing a scrub top over a t-shirt and khakis (the infamous "ER" look...the show, not the department).

Oh, I've posted many a time that that is indeed the real-world "uniform" - for guys not in scrubs, much more than half the time you'll find the scrub top +/- t-shirt, with khakis.

 

[signomi]

YOU are an OB/Gyn person and ugly...and bitter.
She (if there is a god in heaven) will be going into surgery and was hot...
Am I right? Im right aren't I?

I'm a hospitalist doing a fellowship in palliative care and quite cute actually. My specialty is in my profile...or were you too busy looking at ass cracks?
The ass cracker was overweight and average looking. And apparently not intelligent enough to buy pants that fit.

 

[f_w]

Oh, I've posted many a time that that is indeed the real-world "uniform" - for guys not in scrubs, much more than half the time you'll find the scrub top +/- t-shirt, with khakis.

Depending on your field, it is known as the 'radiology mullet' or 'ER mullet'.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Do you show your butt crack? Is it nice?

Not professionally!

As for the second query, I'll keep that my secret.

 

[deleted87716]

Depending on your field, it is known as the 'radiology mullet' or 'ER mullet'.

So, would that be, "Business on top, party on the bottom?"

 

[dynx]

I'm a hospitalist doing a fellowship in palliative care and quite cute actually. My specialty is in my profile...or were you too busy looking at ass cracks?
The ass cracker was overweight and average looking. And apparently not intelligent enough to buy pants that fit.

Damn! so I was wrong for once. I wasn't to busy, but it would have been cheating to look it up before hand.

BOOOO to overweight ass crack.

 

[dynx]

Not professionally!

As for the second query, I'll keep that my secret.

Damn it if I dont have just the smallest inclination to think that you're hot. I've apparently been wrong once before though.

 

[dynx]

Not professionally!

As for the second query, I'll keep that my secret.

repost...post thanksgiving/to much wine with the family inability to post.

 

[erichaj]

Damn it if I dont have just the smallest inclination to think that you're hot. I've apparently been wrong once before though.

Her real name is kimberly fox.

 

[Leukocyte]

Deleted.

 

[Doc Ivy]

I'm not asking for Sunday's best...just clean.

Sunday best doesn't even mean anything anymore. Have you seen what people wear to church these days