Do medical schools consider where you went for undergrad?

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Ddoc33

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Hey guys! I've looked around for some opinions about this topic but haven't been able to find too many thoughts.

I will be graduating from an ivy league school this year, which is known to be very hard and to grade deflate. I was wondering if this has any impact during the application cycle. Do medical schools take into account the rigor of some schools versus others and the fact that some schools deflate grades more than others? For instance, all else being equal, would a 3.6 from my university be equated to say, a 3.8 from a state school in ADCOM's eyes? Or do they purely care about a higher number? I would have to imagine it matters at least a little but do correct me if I'm wrong. Any thoughts appreciated as I expect this will impact where I end up applying!
 
It wouldn't be fair to other applicants to assume that you would have gotten a 4.0 or even a 3.8 at another university.

Having said that, this differs based on which medical school you are talking about. Some, like UCSF, are extremely strict on looking at the GPA without the university. Others, like JHU, consider which undergrad you went to but they won't "adjust" your GPA they way you are trying to do by saying your GPA is "equal" to a 3.8 at some state schools.

In your situation, I would say that the higher your MCAT, the more forgiveness you'll probably get for your GPA.
 
Undergrad does matter. A long time ago, LizzyM posted that at least at her institution, they adjust your GPA based on which school you went to and they have a binder or something for doing that. She gave the example of how a sub-par GPA from Reed College/University gets boosted up because of how notoriously deflated the GPAs there are.
 
Undergrad rigor is definitely considered. Prestige often correlates well with rigor.

My school has >2/3 HYPSM/Cal Tech undergrads, and probably another 10-15% from Ivies/top 15s. That does not just happen organically.

Same thing happens in residency. Ortho at HSS does not just accidentially match 80%+ top tier MD school grads every class.

SDN hates to admit this for some reason though. That being said, I'd think anything sub 3.5 and prestige won't save you--adcoms know there are atleast 25-30% of every graduating class above that number, regardless of how hard your school is (yes...even @efle you WashU kids!).
 
Ddoc33 said:
Hey guys! I've looked around for some opinions about this topic but haven't been able to find too many thoughts.

I will be graduating from an ivy league school this year, which is known to be very hard and to grade deflate. I was wondering if this has any impact during the application cycle. Do medical schools take into account the rigor of some schools versus others and the fact that some schools deflate grades more than others? For instance, all else being equal, would a 3.6 from my university be equated to say, a 3.8 from a state school in ADCOM's eyes? Or do they purely care about a higher number? I would have to imagine it matters at least a little but do correct me if I'm wrong. Any thoughts appreciated as I expect this will impact where I end up applying!
Click to expand...

Op, just to add: I was basically exact situation as you. Entering application cycle coming from top 10 undergrad with a 3.6 GPA. Based on the MSAR, I would be <10th percentile for pretty much all of the top 40ish med schools. Ended up receiving more interview invites than I can afford to attend and matriculating in one of those schools.

Don't stress.
 
Although undergrad reputation/rigor is considered, don't assume that it will save you from a low gpa. Instead, think of it as an added bonus to an already stellar app.
 
Ddoc33 said:
Hey guys! I've looked around for some opinions about this topic but haven't been able to find too many thoughts.

I will be graduating from an ivy league school this year, which is known to be very hard and to grade deflate. I was wondering if this has any impact during the application cycle. Do medical schools take into account the rigor of some schools versus others and the fact that some schools deflate grades more than others? For instance, all else being equal, would a 3.6 from my university be equated to say, a 3.8 from a state school in ADCOM's eyes? Or do they purely care about a higher number? I would have to imagine it matters at least a little but do correct me if I'm wrong. Any thoughts appreciated as I expect this will impact where I end up applying!
Click to expand...
Particular UG schools are feeders for med schools. For us it's our state school, and because we get a fair number of Californians, the UCs.

For the bolded, no. Every now and then in our Adcom meetings, someone will say about a marginal candidate, "But he got a 3.3 from [name school]. That has to count for something". We think about this for a second, and then move on.

A 3.6 GPA can still get you into Harvard.
 
Goro said:
Particular UG schools are feeders for med schools. For us it's our state school, and because we get a fair number of Californians, the UCs.

For the bolded, no. Every now and then in our Adcom meetings, someone will say about a marginal candidate, "But he got a 3.3 from [name school]. That has to count for something". We think about this for a second, and then move on.

A 3.6 GPA can still get you into Harvard.
Click to expand...
Darn Goro, back at it again with the insider adcom advice.
 
Goro said:
Particular UG schools are feeders for med schools. For us it's our state school, and because we get a fair number of Californians, the UCs.

For the bolded, no. Every now and then in our Adcom meetings, someone will say about a marginal candidate, "But he got a 3.3 from [name school]. That has to count for something". We think about this for a second, and then move on.

A 3.6 GPA can still get you into Harvard.
Click to expand...


Lol

There's another issue. If SOMs are going to give hall-passes to ivy students with "lesser GPAs," then the next obvious question should be, "uh, my 3.6 GPA double major of physics and math afrom (known state school) should be worth more than a 3.8 easier major from (Ivy U).

Where would it stop?
 
PreMedMissteps said:
Lol

There's another issue. If SOMs are going to give hall-passes to ivy students with "lesser GPAs," then the next obvious question should be, "uh, my 3.6 GPA double major of physics and math afrom (known state school) should be worth more than a 3.8 easier major from (Ivy U).

Where would it stop?
Click to expand...
Sweet that would mean my 3.3 GPA Ph.D. in quantum physics from DeVry university should be worth more than an easy 3.5 engineering major from some random state school.
 
bears1992 said:
Sweet that would mean my 3.3 GPA Ph.D. in quantum physics from DeVry university should be worth more than an easy 3.5 engineering major from some random state school.
Click to expand...


Lol...a degree from DeVry isn't better than any other school's degree.

Seriously, though, the MCAT is supposed to be the equalizer.
 
PreMedMissteps said:
Lol

There's another issue. If SOMs are going to give hall-passes to ivy students with "lesser GPAs," then the next obvious question should be, "uh, my 3.6 GPA double major of physics and math afrom (known state school) should be worth more than a 3.8 easier major from (Ivy U).

Where would it stop?
Click to expand...

Also, there are tons of private schools and even state schools that are a lot more rigorous than a good chunk of the top ten. Don't want to side track this thread, so I'm not gunna say any names.
 
I think it's kind of bullsh*t to give more weight to a GPA just because it's from a more "well-regarded" institution. One of my friends from an Ivy that is known for deflation took a class at my state school over the summer (our summer terms are the same length as a regular semester) and said it was much harder than any of the prereqs he had taken at his institution. High GPAs show not only good work ethic, but also good judgement (in knowing what you can handle).
 
Goro said:
Particular UG schools are feeders for med schools. For us it's our state school, and because we get a fair number of Californians, the UCs.

For the bolded, no. Every now and then in our Adcom meetings, someone will say about a marginal candidate, "But he got a 3.3 from [name school]. That has to count for something". We think about this for a second, and then move on.

A 3.6 GPA can still get you into Harvard.
Click to expand...
What's the adcom perspective of students from UC Davis or even Merced? Those are typically students that would like to stay in California and the schools take in many local URMs. Do you guys normally feed from bigger UCs?

I'm asking because I'd imagine UCLA, UCB or even UCSD students to not apply to DO because of them being more selective of school's choice or degree choice (MD). I mean they did choose the best public CA schools after all.

PS, OT: What type of car do you drive?
 
Yeah it matters, but not to the degree most people think. My state school ranks the undergraduate schools in the state and bumps GPAs accordingly. However, if you don't go to HYSP or one of the schools in my state, it doesn't matter.
 
CommyO said:
What's the adcom perspective of students from UC Davis or even Merced? Those are typically students that would like to stay in California and the schools take in many local URMs. Do you guys normally feed from bigger UCs?

I'm asking because I'd imagine UCLA, UCB or even UCSD students to not apply to DO because of them being more selective of school's choice or degree choice (MD). I mean they did choose the best public CA schools after all.

PS, OT: What type of car do you drive?
Click to expand...


Well, you can't assume that all of the UCLA, UCB, and UCSD med school applicants have MD quality stats. Remember, the UCs heavily favor GPA over test scores for their undergrad admissions so their students aren't all a bunch of ivy-quality students.

And, since there are too many CA applicants and too few CA MD seats, why wouldnt a number of them apply to DO schools, too.
 
PreMedMissteps said:
Well, you can't assume that all of the UCLA, UCB, and UCSD med school applicants have MD quality stats. Remember, the UCs heavily favor GPA over test scores for their undergrad admissions so their students aren't all a bunch of ivy-quality students.

And, since there are too many CA applicants and too few CA MD seats, why wouldnt a number of them apply to DO schools, too.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if you're correct on GPA favoring of UCs. I knew a kid a while ago in high school who had 4.0+ but couldn't crack 1800+ SATs. He was indian and I think that probably played a part. I'm not sure where he's at now but pretty sure it's not UCLA, UCB, or UCSD; most likely Davis. I also have a relative who got rejected at those schools with a 4.8 weighted gpa but got into lower tier UCs (also Indian).

I agree with you on those students not being competitive for MDs. I'm just saying, the people who attend top UCs tend to be generous in their self-evaluations, from my experience; and I assume would be less likely to apply DO in general.
 
PreMedMissteps said:
Lol

There's another issue. If SOMs are going to give hall-passes to ivy students with "lesser GPAs," then the next obvious question should be, "uh, my 3.6 GPA double major of physics and math afrom (known state school) should be worth more than a 3.8 easier major from (Ivy U).

Where would it stop?
Click to expand...
The pre-med logic of "Schools have grade deflation and thus my 3.4 is = your 3.9" doesn't fly. The top schools have the pick of the litters. You know how we know this? Look at the median GPAs of the Top med schools, which are ~3.9.
 
question: what if someone got accepted to top schools (i.e got accepted to top 15 ug like washu) but couldnt afford to attend and instead chose a scholarship at a lower ranked school to not have any debt. would this have any impact/be taken into account if they applied to top private med schools and had the stats? asking for a friend


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
1forrest1 said:
question: what if someone got accepted to top schools (i.e got accepted to top 15 ug like washu) but couldnt afford to attend and instead chose a scholarship at a lower ranked school to not have any debt. would this have any impact/be taken into account if they applied to top private med schools and had the stats? asking for a friend


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Click to expand...


This often happens....Students choosing the free rides because their families can't pay their EFCs.

I doubt the med schools would really know about this because it's not likely going to be mentioned in the PS or secondaries without sounding strange, but a top student like this would likely be a super-star at their scholarship school and that is what will get him noticed.
 
Goro said:
The pre-med logic of "Schools have grade deflation and thus my 3.4 is = your 3.9" doesn't fly. The top schools have the pick of the litters. You know how we know this? Look at the median GPAs of the Top med schools, which are ~3.9.
Click to expand...
One can make the case that the top schools have a median of 3.9 because they choose 3.9s from top UGs and disregard 3.9s/4.0s from cesspool state schools. That's just one perspective and to make any conclusion, one has to thoroughly evaluate the record of matriculated students at top med schools.
 
The GPA of the average Princeton student accepted to med school is between 3.4 to 3.6. Just something to consider.
 
PreMedMissteps said:
Lol

There's another issue. If SOMs are going to give hall-passes to ivy students with "lesser GPAs," then the next obvious question should be, "uh, my 3.6 GPA double major of physics and math afrom (known state school) should be worth more than a 3.8 easier major from (Ivy U).

Where would it stop?
Click to expand...

It doesn't happen. Look at the median stats for top medical schools. GPAs are 3.9. So someone might say, "this guy got a 3.4 from Yale." Someone else will say "so what, this gal from Yale has a 3.8."

When it's a seller's market, one can ignore people with lower stats. Now, I assume that the SOMs you refer to are MD schools, correct?
 
PreMedMissteps said:
This often happens....Students choosing the free rides because their families can't pay their EFCs.

I doubt the med schools would really know about this because it's not likely going to be mentioned in the PS or secondaries without sounding strange, but a top student like this would likely be a super-star at their scholarship school and that is what will get him noticed.
Click to expand...

I wonder if Duke tries to take this into account by asking about high school and class rank. It might help them gauge how well you did in college compared to where you went to high school. I went to a massive public high school that is NOT considered a top school in the US. My college roommate went to Phillips Exeter. Guess which one of us was a lot better prepared for college and didn't have the absolutely crappy GPA?
 
osprey099 said:
Op, just to add: I was basically exact situation as you. Entering application cycle coming from top 10 undergrad with a 3.6 GPA. Based on the MSAR, I would be <10th percentile for pretty much all of the top 40ish med schools. Ended up receiving more interview invites than I can afford to attend and matriculating in one of those schools.

Don't stress.
Click to expand...

Uuhhhh, a 3.6 is below the 10th percentile for top 40 schools? Since when? That only seems to be the case at Hopkins, Havard, NYU. Not all top 40 schools are like that.
Did you get accepted in the end?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Goro said:
But where are they going? JHU, or Penn State?
Click to expand...

I have no idea. I have a list of the schools where large numbers of students matriculate - I'll look it up. I believe around 100 to 150 total students - including non-trads - apply each year, so there have to be some top stats in the pile as well as some lower ones.

EDIT: Most matriculants in descending order (I imagine these are the top students applying, however):
Perelman—U Penn
Columbia
Rutgers-RWJ
Harvard
NYU
Cornell
Case Western
Yale
Stanford
UCSF
 
Last edited:
Goro said:
It doesn't happen. Look at the median stats for top medical schools. GPAs are 3.9. So someone might say, "this guy got a 3.4 from Yale." Someone else will say "so what, this gal from Yale has a 3.8."

When it's a seller's market, one can ignore people with lower stats. Now, I assume that the SOMs you refer to are MD schools, correct?
Click to expand...


Are you asking me?

I was agreeing with you.
 
CommyO said:
What's the adcom perspective of students from UC Davis or even Merced? Those are typically students that would like to stay in California and the schools take in many local URMs. Do you guys normally feed from bigger UCs?

I'm asking because I'd imagine UCLA, UCB or even UCSD students to not apply to DO because of them being more selective of school's choice or degree choice (MD). I mean they did choose the best public CA schools after all.

PS, OT: What type of car do you drive?
Click to expand...
At my school, we don't make distinctions between the UCs, All of their kids are good. I don't know offhand who among the CA schools is our biggest feeder. Well, our biggest feeders are our own state schools.

I drive a nice GMC product. But I'm planning on getting a '32 Ford highboy.
 
CommyO said:
One can make the case that the top schools have a median of 3.9 because they choose 3.9s from top UGs and disregard 3.9s/4.0s from cesspool state schools. That's just one perspective and to make any conclusion, one has to thoroughly evaluate the record of matriculated students at top med schools.
Click to expand...



Cesspool state schools? Really?

Moving on....you're forgetting that med schools want diversity and that's not just ethnic diversity. A top med seating only applicants from top 10-20 colleges wouldn't probably end up with a very diverse group.

There's a reason why Ivy colleges long moved away from the old way of their feeder prep schools sending them lists of who will be matriculating at their schools. The top meds don't want that situation either.
 
I think what it comes down to is experience with students from particular schools. I imagine if they have an applicant with a lower GPA who is from one school where the course work is known to be rigorous and the medical students often succeed, they might have a better chance than if the same student came from an unknown school with the same stats. So I doubt they are comparing students from different schools - it's more like they might give a little more benefit of the doubt to students who come from schools that have a track record of producing top-notch medical students.
 
1forrest1 said:
question: what if someone got accepted to top schools (i.e got accepted to top 15 ug like washu) but couldnt afford to attend and instead chose a scholarship at a lower ranked school to not have any debt. would this have any impact/be taken into account if they applied to top private med schools and had the stats? asking for a friend


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

PreMedMissteps said:
This often happens....Students choosing the free rides because their families can't pay their EFCs.

I doubt the med schools would really know about this because it's not likely going to be mentioned in the PS or secondaries without sounding strange, but a top student like this would likely be a super-star at their scholarship school and that is what will get him noticed.
Click to expand...

There's a place on the primary to explain how you paid for your undergrad, so in your friend's case, it would be like 100% scholarship instead of a mix of other loans, parental/applicant contribution, etc. I also know that some people list full rides under their "Honors and Awards" activity in the primary.
 
Goro said:
It doesn't happen. Look at the median stats for top medical schools. GPAs are 3.9. So someone might say, "this guy got a 3.4 from Yale." Someone else will say "so what, this gal from Yale has a 3.8."

When it's a seller's market, one can ignore people with lower stats. Now, I assume that the SOMs you refer to are MD schools, correct?
Click to expand...

I still think MCAT and school name compensate for low GPA and enough to sway even top schools to give them interviews and acceptances. Then again, upward trends matter more than overall GPA anyways.
 
Interestingly, in another thread, I've seen people said
"That hopkins is a huge grad deflator and engineering is also a grade deflator. Honestly that 2.4 is probably similar if not harder to acheive than a 3.5 at a state school.

Also taking into account ops other achievements I would not be surprised with a score equivalent to 37+ or even 40+."

I feel shame on myself studying in a state school for GPA and working so hard for MCAT.
 
Lawper said:
I still think MCAT and school name compensate for low GPA and enough to sway even top schools to give them interviews and acceptances. Then again, upward trends matter more than overall GPA anyways.
Click to expand...
Median GPAs at med schools would suggest otherwise. What I'm saying is school name counts when you have high stats.
 
Goro said:
Median GPAs at med schools would suggest otherwise. What I'm saying is school name counts when you have high stats.
Click to expand...

Median GPAs are misleading though. They fail to take into account of grade trends, school name and the unstandardized/subjective process of getting those grades. That's why when constructing school lists, it's significantly better and more preferable to compare your MCAT score with school's median MCAT score +/- 2. It's also why low tiers yield protect applicants with high MCAT scores even with low GPA. And it's also why it's impossible to create school lists with just the GPA alone given its unstandardized nature.
 
Undergrad name matters to some med schools far more than others. See link in my signature to AAMC survey, where private med schools rated undergrad selectivity as highly important.

My experience is similar to md2020 about this effect being exaggerated at the top, with places like Hopkins and Penn being almost entirely grads of Ivy Leagues or similar schools from the rest of the country. However I think this isn't just a prestige thing, it's also that most people capable of scoring top couple percent on the MCAT also did very well in high school/on the SAT and ended up at a selective college. Cant say for certain how causative the alma mater is, and obvs there are exceptions (like taking merit $ to a state program happens all the time).

To answer OPs question, imho yes a 3.6 from a place like Cornell will be competitive for mid tier private schools, just like a 3.8 from U of State.
 
If you studied in a well-known private university, you might get more attentions from adcom in well-known private medical schools.
If you studied in a well-known senior high school, you might get more attentions from adcom in well-known private universities.
If you... junior high school, you might... senior high schools.
If you... elementary school, you might... junior high schools.
If you were born in a prestigious family, you might... elementary schools.

Well, who can tell me a reason to believe in the American Dream?
 
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enchantediris said:
There's a place on the primary to explain how you paid for your undergrad, so in your friend's case, it would be like 100% scholarship instead of a mix of other loans, parental/applicant contribution, etc. I also know that some people list full rides under their "Honors and Awards" activity in the primary.
Click to expand...


I realize that but that doesn't tell the whole story. For one thing, people mix up the terms scholarships and grants all the time. So, saying that a student received 80-100% scholarship to school X wouldn't necessarily tell the adcoms that most or all of that aid was merit based or need-based. And, it wouldn't tell the adcoms that the student had to choose that school because his family couldn't afford Columbia where he was also accepted, but without much or any aid.
 
DBC03 said:
Honestly, I sometimes believe that what someone ate for breakfast that day and whether the drive was pleasant on the way to work can have more of an impact on acceptance/rejection than many of the factors we are discussing.
Click to expand...

It's a seller's market after all! Admissions is supposed to be rational and objective but who knows what happens behind closed doors. An unfortunate reality where medical school chances are sharply affected by cognitive biases of adcom members and interviewers.
 
mwsapphire said:
Uuhhhh, a 3.6 is below the 10th percentile for top 40 schools? Since when? That only seems to be the case at Hopkins, Havard, NYU. Not all top 40 schools are like that.
Did you get accepted in the end?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

If I recall correctly, the MSAR back in 2013-2014 at most of the top 40 med schools (by USNews) had a 10th-90th GPA range of 3.65-3.99. I remember I was extremely worried and couldn't sleep for some nights because of that.

Currently filling out my residency applications.
 
It's a phenomenon on paper that schools don't discriminate on UG institutions. I bet at the very least, there is a unconscious bias from adcoms on UG schools. But the schools that do strongly unconsciously or consciously discriminate on UG are more than likely t20s or t10s so it doesn't even apply to most of the applicant pool anyways.

PS I go to a local state school so not sure what you're all perked up about @PreMedMissteps. I speak the truth. State schools might as well be party schools that accept anyone who gave half an effort in high school.

Besides, aren't you URM? You should be fine going to a state school (hell, even DeVry) unlike me who will have to do exceptional for even a second glance.
 
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