Do medical schools descriminate based on race?

[dokein]

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I have said before why I don't believe the world of medicine is a strict meritocracy, and why it shouldn't be!

"...SOCIETY puts everyone and everything in categories. That's just how it is. A black patient from a disadvantaged area is probably going to feel much more comfortable with a black doctor with the same background than with a white doctor who had super-rich parents and went to ivy-league schools etc. Patients need to be able to relate and communicate with their doctors.

Which brings me to my next point, the world of medicine isn't a strict meritocracy. If you're a brilliant physicist who has done groundbreaking research, then you are more likely to win the Nobel prize over other physicists that haven't done ground-breaking research. But medicine is different. Medicine isn't just about the science - it's about the PEOPLE i.e. the patients. Otherwise, anyone with a 4.0 GPA and 37 MCAT without any EC's should get automatic admission, because he/she has proved that they are more than capable of handling medical school. But we find that that's often not the case - a person with lower stats but with much better EC's may have a better chance of getting into medical school.

That's the difference."

ECs are merit. You perform them, almost anyone can. It takes initiative and action. Race, otoh, is not.

 

[medactar]

When people realize racism shaped our nation and needs to be adjusted for, then this convo can be productive. It doesn't matter if the URM is wealthy or poor. It doesn't matter if he/she has had experiences of overt racism. They are still affected.

Until then... 😀

ETA: some people were asking in the beginning of the thread why black patients may prefer black doctors. This is why:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...98c6d6ec681e2dc2245fe832382&ie=/sdarticle.pdf

Basically the study says that white doctors hold negative views of black patients even when things like insurance status, socioeconomics and education are controlled.

Who wants to sign up for a doc who is going to look down on you?? Don't all raise your hands at once.

 

[amikeMD]

If the class size remains the same, that means 2 asians/whites that would otherwise get in would NOT get in.

Why exactly do you assume that those two spots will go to two asian or white people?

URM status only applies to US citizens/permanent residents. An international student with a 4.0/40 could easily get those spots.

 

[strummin]

Basically the study says that white doctors hold negative views of black patients even when things like insurance status, socioeconomics and education are controlled.

...and considering what we've seen in this thread from some White and Asian pre-meds, is it really surprising? I admit I was very ignorant of the history of slavery and institutional racism in this country until I took an African-American Humanities course. It really opened my eyes. And no, racism has not gone away. It is alive and strong. Studies show this again and again. It is just more covert these days.

 

[dokein]

Why exactly do you assume that those two spots will go to two asian or white people?

URM status only applies to US citizens/permanent residents. An international student with a 4.0/40 could easily get those spots.

Okay...? Wtf are you trying to argue?

Then in that case URM status discriminated against the international student and it's just as wrong. Wow, leap of logic there.

Statistically, any two spots regardless outside of Howard, etc. will go to a white/asian student so it's simplifying the example.

 

[yearn4ivy]

When people realize racism shaped our nation and needs to be adjusted for, then this convo can be productive. It doesn't matter if the URM is wealthy or poor. It doesn't matter if he/she has had experiences of overt racism. They are still affected.

Until then... 😀

ETA: some people were asking in the beginning of the thread why black patients may prefer black doctors. This is why:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...98c6d6ec681e2dc2245fe832382&ie=/sdarticle.pdf

Basically the study says that white doctors hold negative views of black patients even when things like insurance status, socioeconomics and education are controlled.

Who wants to sign up for a doc who is going to look down on you?? Don't all raise your hands at once.

This is exactly why more doctors who are URM are needed, yet some vigorously dispute this. Thankfully, the ADCOMS know more, otherwise certain minority populations will inevitably suffer from biased healthcare provision.

I posted something similar in a different thread (without the research article 🙂) : http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=682123&page=4


"Some posters on this thread seem to lack cultural sensitivity and awareness all together. It makes me wonder if these aspiring doctors will acquire the necessary cultural competency to effectively serve a diverse patient population (or is that something we all put in our PS, but never really mean it).

I had a white friend who MCAT was low (25) but had a good GPA. She still got into med school the year she applied. If she were black/lation/other URM, most people would scream URM privileges. I had an Asian friend from a disadvantaged background (she came to this country as a refugee), she go at 26 on the MCAT, has a good GPA, but thought her MCAT was not good enough...so she did not apply.

Some make it sound like URM students just have to check an imaginary URM block ...and viola...that's an automatic acceptance. Don't these students have to pursue a degree, take premed course requirements, volunteer, shadow, do leadership activities, study for the MCAT, write a personal statement ant most importantly, express their desire and committment to study medicine? Don't these students have to interview and interview well ?
But why consider the whole picture, when you can reduce the whole process to perceived generalizations about URM privileges?"

 

[nabeel76]

I would have to disagree with you, as a member of a refugee family from Afghanistan, ..QUOTE]

There is a disadvantaged portion of your application; your immigration issues are irrelevant to URM status. A person born in North Korea who nearly loses his or her life and defects to South Korea and then swims across the ocean here to sell used underwear for .01 cents while studying for the MCAT under broken lampposts would have an incredible disadvantaged story, but would not be considered URM.

Although noted, the person you were responding to did not specifically address URM either.

Yeah I know, Afghans/Iranians are considered white as a race and therefore I do not qualify for URM status.

I was just responding to the poster that was stating that a wealthy white applicant can have as many disadvantages as other disadvantaged applicants due to the possibility of emotional and psychological factors such as the one he described.

 

[dokein]

Yeah I know, Afghans/Iranians are considered white as a race and therefore I do not qualify for URM status.

I was just responding to the poster that was stating that a wealthy white applicant can have as many disadvantages as other disadvantaged applicants due to the possibility of emotional and psychological factors such as the one he described.

Sorry then, misunderstood your post.

 

[amikeMD]

Okay...? Wtf are you trying to argue?

Then in that case URM status discriminated against the international student and it's just as wrong. Wow, leap of logic there.

Statistically, any two spots regardless outside of Howard, etc. will go to a white/asian student so it's simplifying the example.

Nothing, I just trying to disrupt people's argument, so this thread can get closed. Your post was just the last post on the page.

But to continue, how exactly would URM policy discriminate against international students? Most policies in any schools around the world have a strong preference to their own citizens. So, I would say it is hard to argue that URM status is discriminatory to international students.

 

[dokein]

Nothing, I just trying to disrupt people's argument, so this thread can get closed. Your post was just the last post on the page.

But to continue, how exactly would URM policy discriminate against international students? Most policies in any schools around the world have a strong preference to their own citizens. So, I would say it is hard to argue that URM status is discriminatory to international students.

Okay then, if it is highly unlikely that those two spots are filled by international students, then it most likely discriminates against whites/asians/other non-URM people.

You're just trolling here.

 

[amikeMD]

You're just trolling here.

Sort of, but I would say the original poster was a troll of a sort. He/she could have easily have used the search function and found the information he/she was looking for.

This thread was pretty unnecessary. I mean there is another thread also on the front page that we are both posting in on the same issue.

 

[dokein]

Sort of, but I would say the original poster was a troll of a sort. He/she could have easily have used the search function and found the information he/she was looking for.

This thread was pretty unnecessary. I mean there is another thread also on the front page that we are both posting in on the same issue.

That's reasonable, but I would argue the other thread is tarnished by the OP's rant. Therefore it is compromised and well worth it to start a second thread.

Haha, jk I'm not going to start any argument there.

 

[amikeMD]

That's reasonable, but I would argue the other thread is tarnished by the OP's rant. Therefore it is compromised and well worth it to start a second thread.

Haha, jk I'm not going to start any argument there.

No, actually you bring up a good point. I could see how someone could have clicked on the thread, and left after looking at the length of the OP's post.

 

[MiSfiT2013]

You would think one thread would be enough to discuss this topic but of course not. Now we have 2 threads with basically the same debate. Smh.

 

[stevesavi]

I'm not saying that all Asians and whites should be accepted, and that is a straw man argument.

So let's say there is no URM criteria and 13 spots are given to URMs. With the addition of the critiera, 15 URMs are be admitted.

If the class size remains the same, that means 2 asians/whites that would otherwise get in would NOT get in.

That's not to say that at any point in the process you said; **** this guy is so white you'd have to slap him to get any color in his cheeks, let's not admit him. But it does mean that at some point in the process you said, guy/gal A's URM connections would be good for the racial and ethnic diversity of our class, which means later on when you're choosing between guys/gals B-Z, there's one less spot.

This point was a long time coming. Of course no one says "he's asian, too bad for him, if only he were hispanic."
But there are kids who are non-URM that aren't getting interviews (leading to acceptances) that would with the same stats if the only thing that changed about there application was their skin color. In a case like this some will say "He didn't get in because his grades were low, his mcat was low, he didnt volunteer enough etc., not because he was white"
and its true that he could have gotten in if some of those things were different, but he would also have gotten in somewhere if he were a URM and all else equal, and in that respect he didnt get in because he was white (since there is a urm/not-urm partition).
ps-this is hypothetical i am accepted class of 2014 as well

 

[medactar]

I always wonder why Asians never say "waaah, a white person stole my spot"

Just wondering out loud 😛

 

[dokein]

I always wonder why Asians never say "waaah, a white person stole my spot"

Just wondering out loud 😛

Sorry but, you're clearly not reading correctly. This has been addressed at least half a dozen times in this thread.

 

[medactar]

Sorry but, you're clearly not reading correctly. This has been addressed at least half a dozen times in this thread.

I apologize... mind re-addressing it? Didn't read "correctly" enough to get a true answer. [lazy Caribbean stereotype? yes 😛]

 

[Narmerguy]

Why don't applicants ever whine "waaah a better applicant took my spot". There are statistically worse applicants, white, black, asian, hispanic, that are getting in above you. Why only complain against one group? Why only focus on those worse than you? Why not whine about the ones who do everything you can better? Why all the friecking whining?!! Just stop whining.

 

[medactar]

Why don't applicants ever whine "waaah a better applicant took my spot". There are statistically worse applicants, white, black, asian, hispanic, that are getting in above you. Why only complain against one group? Why only focus on those worse than you? Why not whine about the ones who do everything you can better? Why all the friecking whining?!! Just stop whining.

Why don't matriculants whine "waaah I took someone else's spot... there were applicants with better stats than mine"



😛

 

[Arjuna]

I just filled out my AMCAS application and it asked me what race I am. I feel like because I marked that I'm 'white', I'll be less desirable from the medical school's vantage point.

Does anyone know if race is used to determine admissions?

Oh no. Schrodinger's cat is finally out of the bag. Again.

 

[dokein]

I always wonder why Asians never say "waaah, a white person stole my spot"

Just wondering out loud 😛

Basically, ECs, overcoming life experiences, GPA, MCAT is merit based. Race is not.

If a white person is accepted over me (an asian person), I can be sure they have a better overall application for that school, whatever their GPA and MCAT may be.

If an URM person is accepted and I am not, it's very likely that they have a better application ... but you can't be sure unless the URM checkbox doesn't exist.

 

[NickNaylor]

SOURCES:
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table25-h-mcatgpagridhispnic.pdf

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table25-a-mcatgpagridasian.pdf

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table25-b-mcatgpagridblack.pdf

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table25-w-mcatgpagridwhite.pdf

Cheers.

 

[medactar]

Basically, ECs, overcoming life experiences, GPA, MCAT is merit based. Race is not.

So having a certain race in the great USofA isn't a life experience in itself?😱 Wow
Is that why they ask for race on almost EVERY SINGLE document in the states? I was truly shocked and overwhelmed when I came to the States and had to categorize myself over and over again. I have many examples of why your race is a life experience in itself if you 1) Live in the U.S. and/or 2) Are the descendant of former slave (especially the US variety of slave) and I will reiterate / post the articles/ journals/ research if you are interested (if you are here to expand knowledge and not just prove a point).
I also have journal articles proving that race alone (independent of socio-economics and education) impact many different aspects of life from job apps all the way to people's willingness to help you in a life-threatening situation. Again, ask if you are interested. I find that people of all races (including some of the races that are being discriminated against) do not realize how race influences everyday life.

I don't even consider calling someone a racist an insult. But that's a whole different thread.

If a white person is accepted over me (an asian person), I can be sure they have a better overall application for that school, whatever their GPA and MCAT may be.

How can you be sure of this? Are there some stats or a study? I must have missed it. Let me know

If an URM person is accepted and I am not, it's very likely that they have a better application ... but you can't be sure unless the URM checkbox doesn't exist.

I honestly don't know what URM checkbox you are talking about. I don't recall this during my app process. Refresh me.

Response in bold

 

[dokein]

Response in bold

I'm aware that being discriminated against is a life experience, which is why the word "overcoming" is in there.

 

[medactar]

SOURCES:
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table25-h-mcatgpagridhispnic.pdf

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table25-a-mcatgpagridasian.pdf

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table25-b-mcatgpagridblack.pdf

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table25-w-mcatgpagridwhite.pdf

Cheers.

Wait, doesn't this prove that Asians should be upset with whites for taking their spot much like they are upset with URMs?

I mean, if the reasoning is that some groups have higher acceptance rates then there you have it: whites have higher acceptance rates than Asians.
Everyone other group does. And whites with lower numbers get accepted more (by number) "over Asians". So if you are going to blame a group, don't see why not them too.


Now for the record, I don't actually believe that the Asian lower acceptance rate is something they should "just get over" but I don't see why URMs are the only ones targeted.


Either way, I don't think one ethnic group should be targeted by Asians with this complaint. Asians and those otherwise concerned should organize and do something about it. Go to court. Get it done. I would support it.

System's broken. Try to fix it. Just concentrate on the right people and stop blaming URMs. 🙂

 

[45408]

I come from a wealthy family which probably has just as many problems as any poor family. Where is the check box for alcoholic parents? Where is the check box for mental and physical abuse? Where is the check box for dealing with watching their brother seizure and code on methamphetamines? Point is there are poor families who provide a much more conducive environment for learning than wealthy ones.

There's a blank space for all of that - just check the "Disadvantaged" box and fill it whatever else you'd like to include.

 

[medactar]

What about my other questions? I really want to know how you are sure that a white person who has an Asian's spot who has lower stats deserves it but a URM doesn't

I'm aware that being discriminated against is a life experience, which is why the word "overcoming" is in there.

Confused 😕

If 15.5% of all Americans are college grads and a member of an oppressed group (whose long line of forefathers were considered and treated as property, not people) scratches his/her way into that "elite" rank, then they have overcome something.

Now I am not saying every member of an oppressed group who graduates college should be a doctor, but navigating your way through an educational system which much of your support system (parents etc) are either new to or completely unfamiliar with is overcoming an obstacle and should be taken into consideration. How much consideration? I'm open to suggestions with that.

It may seem like nothing for me or you but if it is drilled in your head that you are nothing, incapable, inferior, lazy etc etc etc (consciously or unconsciously) then overcoming that mental barrier in itself (along with the practical barriers that come with being a part of an oppressed group) is, well, overcoming.

 

[dokein]

What about my other questions? I really want to know how you are sure that a white person who has an Asian's spot who has lower stats deserves it but a URM doesn't



Confused 😕

If 15.5% of all Americans are college grads and a member of an oppressed group (whose long line of forefathers were considered and treated as property, not people) scratches his/her way into that "elite" rank, then they have overcome something.

Now I am not saying every member of an oppressed group who graduates college should be a doctor, but navigating your way through an educational system which much of your support system (parents etc) are either new to or completely unfamiliar with is overcoming an obstacle and should be taken into consideration. How much consideration? I'm open to suggestions with that.

It may seem like nothing for me or you but if it is drilled in your head that you are nothing, incapable, inferior, lazy etc etc etc (consciously or unconsciously) then overcoming that mental barrier in itself (along with the practical barriers that come with being a part of an oppressed group) is, well, overcoming.

Your other question: if it's true that whites are given preference over Asians, I would feel the same way. I have heard that Asians have a harder time over whites though, and it is something that should be addressed in addition. However the differences are much smaller (as you can see from that graph).

If ethnicity is not considered (e.g. blind) then the only thing left is the other aspects of the application, which I am fine with. Yes there's an element of chance but that can go either way, whereas being Asian alone will never, ever, help me.

Your post: Yes, getting into college is overcoming part of that. So is getting into college as a very poor person, because let's be realistic--on top of financial issues, I am not aware of any school in which it is 'cool' to be smart, and ****ty public schools are even worse. And so they very much deserve to be in college!

But to get into medical school, that requires a different level of overcoming hardships than college, and getting a 26.1 (black average) on the MCAT is not okay for an Asian person who was poor (31.something Asian average).

If you can show me the statistic that Asians from poor families need to have a 26.1 average to get in, and super rich black families have a 31.something average, I'll happily concede your point.

Sure, there's some sort of overall Asian culture that supports academic success, but to say this is true in EVERY Asian family is as much a stereotype as it is to say that NO black family supports academic success.

From your post after I said you didn't read carefully, and you joked about fulfilling the lazy Caribbean stereotype--at least I hope that was a joke. Because I've accused many white and asian people of not reading carefully, and it has nothing to do with what ethnicity they are.

It seems that at times, people not treating you well is automatically attributed towards race. But unless you're a hot girl, nobody really treats you that well. There was another person in one of the two threads who said people didn't want to lab partner with him... well I've been denied too, as have many people on this thread. How does he know if it's race or if it's who he is?

I mean, I realize that at some point it's obviously racism. But once I had to kick a hispanic woman out of a motel room (I was helping manage the motel) because she was cooking in the parking lot at 4 am and not paying her rent. She immediately accused me of racism! I would have kicked ****ing Bill Gates out if he did the same thing.

If a black person puts down some of the obstacles in their personal statement, and this is treated with the same preference as say, a Japanese person (who has no educational background) who immigrated to Chinatown, San Francisco and was discriminated against every day by people in the Chinese community (because a lot of Chinese people are very racist against Japanese), then yes--fine.

But I disagree with ethnicity checkboxes that are taken into consideration outside of any sort of essay, where an entire ethnicity group (many many people) are ALL assumed to have difficult experiences, and an entire ethnicity group (many many many many people) are NOT assumed to have difficult experiences. This is just not true, you can't use population statistics to describe one person's experience.

 

[dokein]

I would 10x more willing to accept a checkbox saying "did you feel that racial discrimination affected your academic accomplishments <y/n>" with an accompanying essay citing any racial circumstances, how you overcame them, and how that will affect you as a physician e.g. where you serve. This essay is open to anyone of any race.

Currently, it's just a checkbox alone detailing your ethnicity. I don't think that the son of a rich Nigerian oil guy would really feels like he's worthless, and yet he's still URM. Or that the daughter of a Chinese immigrant coming over here in a shipping container really feels like every opportunity is open to her.

Also, I'm not angry toward URMs whichy ou have mentioned above (although don't know if it was directed to me specifically). Even if URMs were auto-admitted, whichi s far from true, it isn't their fault. Rather I am critiquing the admissions process and the people in charge of that.

 

[medactar]

Eeek, sorry so long. Nice chatting with you, though.😀 Goodnight

Your other question: if it's true that whites are given preference over Asians, I would feel the same way.

It is true (though I don't know whether or not it is a "preference") they have higher acceptance rates with lower stats per the graph... which was your criteria

However the differences are much smaller (as you can see from that graph).

The % is smaller but the numbers are not... so there are many more whites to get the frustrations out on than blacks. *get your punching bags out*

If something is wrong on principle, then it should be wrong no matter the degree. I mean, am I wrong?

If ethnicity is not considered (e.g. blind) then the only thing left is the other aspects of the application, which I am fine with. Yes there's an element of chance but that can go either way, whereas being Asian alone will never, ever, help me.

agreed... I support efforts to correct this (with my current understanding of it)

Your post: Yes, getting into college is overcoming part of that. So is getting into college as a very poor person, because let's be realistic--on top of financial issues, I am not aware of any school in which it is 'cool' to be smart, and ****ty public schools are even worse. And so they very much deserve to be in college!

I'm not sure what this really means. Whether or not something is 'cool' does not have the same influence on academic performance as generations of emotional and educational oppression. Correct me if I am misinterpreting you.

But to get into medical school, that requires a different level of overcoming hardships than college, and getting a 26.1 (black average) on the MCAT is not okay for an Asian person who was poor (31.something Asian average).

If you can show me the statistic that Asians from poor families need to have a 26.1 average to get in, and super rich black families have a 31.something average, I'll happily concede your point.

I don't know of where I would be able to get such a statistic (confirming or denying). But I hope you understand my point that racial differences are NOT simply socio-economical. Being a wealthy black or being a wealthy white or being a wealthy Asian are NOT equal. There are incidences of racism that have nothing to do with actual income/ wealth. So the racial aspect is separate from the socio-economic aspect.

For the poor Asian family, there is a section on the apps to tell about your disadvantaged status. If adcoms aren't considering this section for Asians then it is a problem that needs to be addressed separately from race based AA. Many times African Americans have both racial AND other disadvantages so of course these are taken into consideration. And, IMO, it should. BTW, adcoms also consider if you have applied with a FAP which proves economic disadvantage.

Sure, there's some sort of overall Asian culture that supports academic success, but to say this is true in EVERY Asian family is as much a stereotype as it is to say that NO black family supports academic success.

Didn't say this

From your post after I said you didn't read carefully, and you joked about fulfilling the lazy Caribbean stereotype--at least I hope that was a joke. Because I've accused many white and asian people of not reading carefully, and it has nothing to do with what ethnicity they are.

Yes, it was a joke 😛 Most Caribbeans in the U.S. are "stereotyped" as extremely hard working so I was totally being facetious. Interesting way to respond though 😉

It seems that at times, people not treating you well is automatically attributed towards race. But unless you're a hot girl, nobody really treats you that well. There was another person in one of the two threads who said people didn't want to lab partner with him... well I've been denied too, as have many people on this thread. How does he know if it's race or if it's who he is?

Lol, this may not apply to me since I am usually treated very well... as a "hot girl" and all

I mean, I realize that at some point it's obviously racism. But once I had to kick a hispanic woman out of a motel room (I was helping manage the motel) because she was cooking in the parking lot at 4 am and not paying her rent. She immediately accused me of racism! I would have kicked ****ing Bill Gates out if he did the same thing.

Pretty pretty please read this article and tell me what you think.

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/racism10.htm

I post studies that are so interesting (to me at least) but I feel like no one takes the time to read them (I know you guys are busy). It basically talks about studies where people who considered themselves non-biased show biased behavior if they have an "excuse" to blame it on something other than race. Not saying that's what you did but that's the result of many, MANY, MANY studies where they can actually measure it.

If a black person puts down some of the obstacles in their personal statement, and this is treated with the same preference as say, a Japanese person (who has no educational background) who immigrated to Chinatown, San Francisco and was discriminated against every day by people in the Chinese community (because a lot of Chinese people are very racist against Japanese), then yes--fine.

But I disagree with ethnicity checkboxes that are taken into consideration outside of any sort of essay, where an entire ethnicity group (many many people) are ALL assumed to have difficult experiences, and an entire ethnicity group (many many many many people) are NOT assumed to have difficult experiences. This is just not true, you can't use population statistics to describe one person's experience.

I agree that all "obstacle" essays (which don't have to be included in the PS- there is a special space in the primary) should be treated equally regardless of race.

Where we disagree (and I don't think we will concede this in the course of this thread) is if certain races inherently have difficult experiences if they live in the U.S. and whether that in itself should be taken into consideration. I argue that simply being a part of certain races in the U.S. will affect your educational experience at SOME point in your life before college.😱 Yes, tough cookie to swallow. I know you disagree, but it's my stance based on the research I have seen. Some urms know this, some are in denial because they don't want to feel like a victim, some truly don't agree... doesn't make it not true.

All of the everyday experiences may not warrant an essay because they may be small in scale and people may not be able to isolate a specific incident (as addressed in the link I gave above) but it is there.

For ex. I have a little brother who is brilliant at math. He does problems at home just because. In the middle of this year, we found out he was placed in a remedial math class (6th grade). They didn't notify my parents... nothing. Just placed him there in the beginning of the year. He had great grades last year in all classes but had a special interest in math. We couldn't understand why. My Mom decided to visit the school. The teacher could not come up with any concrete reasons why he was moved except that he was identified as someone who would "benefit" from this type of class.🙄 We showed her the past grades and the past comments from his math teachers (all stellar). Why this lady assumed that my bro needed to be in remedial class with absolutely no proof and without notifying my parents really puzzles me. Can I call it racism? No, I have no proof. I just can say that he had no reason to be placed and had stellar grades and interest before. I can also say that as someone in a predom white school, it was interesting that once the boys started going through puberty, the majority of the larger black boys (3 out of 4) were placed in remedial math by the choice of the same teacher when they had average to great grades in the subject before.

This will obviously affect his educational future.

Cliffs: racism against certain groups negatively impact their education and adcoms should take that into consideration beyond just socio-economics.

logging off for now 😀

 

[dokein]

Point 1. Lol, this may not apply to me since I am usually treated very well... as a "hot girl" and all

Point 2.
Pretty pretty please read this article and tell me what you think.

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/racism10.htm

Point 3.
Where we disagree (and I don't think we will concede this in the course of this thread) is if certain races inherently have difficult experiences if they live in the U.S. and whether that in itself should be taken into consideration. I argue that simply being a part of certain races in the U.S. will affect your educational experience at SOME point in your life before college.

Point 4.
For ex. I have a little brother who is brilliant at math.

1. In that case, I agree with everything you say!

2. I agree that racism still exists. I would like to see the same study with a caller who has an Asian accent.

That aside, I think the conclusions drawn from this study are way too large for the basis of the results given. But since you have other studies presumably which demonstrate similar things it is of course more evidence based.

3. I agree that certain races generally have different experiences, and that blacks especially have more difficult experiences regarding academics. This is true even between black kids because there is often an internal standard of 'not acting white'. But this is not, in my opinion, something that should be corrected for at the professional school level, because professions should be open to people on the basis of merit only.

Similarly, Asians are often chosen last in team sports because of a perceived inability to play ball. Should DIV-IA teams take that into account when handing out scholarships for basketball? (I realize there are many differences between the two fields, basketball and medicine, which void this example, but the comparison is only meant to address this part of the argument)

Rather, it should be corrected at earlier levels. I fully support additional educational programs at an earlier age, etc.

4. Just so you know I was placed into remedial English after moving from Oregon to California (7th grade), even though I scored in the 99th percentile on the national standardized test and got As or Es (excellent! how I miss those days...).

 

[medactar]

I would 10x more willing to accept a checkbox saying "did you feel that racial discrimination affected your academic accomplishments <y/n>" with an accompanying essay citing any racial circumstances, how you overcame them, and how that will affect you as a physician e.g. where you serve. This essay is open to anyone of any race.

Currently, it's just a checkbox alone detailing your ethnicity. I don't think that the son of a rich Nigerian oil guy would really feels like he's worthless, and yet he's still URM. Or that the daughter of a Chinese immigrant coming over here in a shipping container really feels like every opportunity is open to her.

Also, I'm not angry toward URMs whichy ou have mentioned above (although don't know if it was directed to me specifically). Even if URMs were auto-admitted, whichi s far from true, it isn't their fault. Rather I am critiquing the admissions process and the people in charge of that.

No definitely wasn't directed at you.

You have to realize that not all racist experiences are cut and dry. -.05% here, -1% there and soon enough you are affected. Aversive racism is common in the US today. Those experiences do NOT make for powerful essays but they affect the individual in powerful ways.

I do think you have a good point in considering immigrant populations differently (including Africans and sadly for me Caribbeans). But I think their "blackness" should be considered because simply being a part of certain races in the US gives you resistance... but not as much as AfAms for the following reasons:

Black immigrants burden less of the effects of slavery, Jim Crow and racist attitudes that persist today. It was less ingrained in black immigrants than AfAms that they are inherently inferior through years of programing from living in the US and dealing with overt and subtle racism and having convos like this (j/k 😀) Furthermore, more black immigrants have familial support reinforcing the importance of education because of the class of people that tend to immigrate (much like Asian immigrants).

The groups that immigrate have less family members who have had hope and trust in the educational system beaten out of them from hundreds years of not being considered equal and living in a society where it seems like they have to battle for every societal crumb.

Kinda sad: we are arguing over a system that is inherently flawed. Too bad it's the best we are going to get until people recognize how race continues to shape our nation and how each individual plays a role and MOST IMPORTANTLY commits to change it and not view it as simply a minority problem. It's every American's problem.

If racial inequalities did not exist, I would never support AA... but it does. We can do something about it, or continue to complain about this "unfair" process.


Not directed at you, but like I posted before:

As a side... If someone says the term "racecard" one more time

OK I'm so sleepy, excuse my errors. Night

 

[apumic]

Anyone ever take the implicit attitude test? (IAT)

It measures your subconscious positive and/or negative attitudes toward various people groups via implicit associations. Try it.... And if you're brave, I'd dare you to post what you got.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/research/

 

[mipp0]

Your other question: if it's true that whites are given preference over Asians, I would feel the same way. I have heard that Asians have a harder time over whites though, and it is something that should be addressed in addition. However the differences are much smaller (as you can see from that graph).

If ethnicity is not considered (e.g. blind) then the only thing left is the other aspects of the application, which I am fine with. Yes there's an element of chance but that can go either way, whereas being Asian alone will never, ever, help me.

Your post: Yes, getting into college is overcoming part of that. So is getting into college as a very poor person, because let's be realistic--on top of financial issues, I am not aware of any school in which it is 'cool' to be smart, and ****ty public schools are even worse. And so they very much deserve to be in college!

But to get into medical school, that requires a different level of overcoming hardships than college, and getting a 26.1 (black average) on the MCAT is not okay for an Asian person who was poor (31.something Asian average).

If you can show me the statistic that Asians from poor families need to have a 26.1 average to get in, and super rich black families have a 31.something average, I'll happily concede your point.

Sure, there's some sort of overall Asian culture that supports academic success, but to say this is true in EVERY Asian family is as much a stereotype as it is to say that NO black family supports academic success.

From your post after I said you didn't read carefully, and you joked about fulfilling the lazy Caribbean stereotype--at least I hope that was a joke. Because I've accused many white and asian people of not reading carefully, and it has nothing to do with what ethnicity they are.

It seems that at times, people not treating you well is automatically attributed towards race. But unless you're a hot girl, nobody really treats you that well. There was another person in one of the two threads who said people didn't want to lab partner with him... well I've been denied too, as have many people on this thread. How does he know if it's race or if it's who he is?

I mean, I realize that at some point it's obviously racism. But once I had to kick a hispanic woman out of a motel room (I was helping manage the motel) because she was cooking in the parking lot at 4 am and not paying her rent. She immediately accused me of racism! I would have kicked ****ing Bill Gates out if he did the same thing.

If a black person puts down some of the obstacles in their personal statement, and this is treated with the same preference as say, a Japanese person (who has no educational background) who immigrated to Chinatown, San Francisco and was discriminated against every day by people in the Chinese community (because a lot of Chinese people are very racist against Japanese), then yes--fine.

But I disagree with ethnicity checkboxes that are taken into consideration outside of any sort of essay, where an entire ethnicity group (many many people) are ALL assumed to have difficult experiences, and an entire ethnicity group (many many many many people) are NOT assumed to have difficult experiences. This is just not true, you can't use population statistics to describe one person's experience.

Dokein makes some very good points. Rather than be facetious in your answer, why not acknowledge the obvious flaws of affirmative action in the admissions process?

Good grief...racism is "multidirectional", not unidirectional. Whites and Asians can very much be victims of racism as well. Your (medactor, sorry for spelling error) anecdote with your brother and interpretation sounds paranoid, and until you have some tangible evidence of wrongdoing, you should hold back on screaming racism. I would blame a garbage public education system.

I'll throw in a nice anecdote in too. When I was visiting a friend in East LA, I was harassed at a gas station to no end because I "didn't belong there" (their words, not mine). I was sucker punched and had a knife pulled on me. Was I singled out due to my race? Oh heavens no, racism only comes from the majority right? Maybe I was just being unfriendly, even though I was smiling and minding my own business (granted I was piss scared). Maybe I'm being as paranoid as you are...

Now I don't deny racism exists. It does. But what about Asians who experience racism and poverty? Whites who experience racism and poverty? These issues don't get addressed. Being a disadvantaged Asian/white warrants a tedious explanation in a disadvantaged box? What about a URM student who grew up wealthy in a predominately minority neighborhood? We see a problem and groups of people being overlooked. Tim Groseclose of UCLA and Chris Reed have nice written pieces on this issue.

 

[medactar]

1. In that case, I agree with everything you say!

2. I agree that racism still exists. I would like to see the same study with a caller who has an Asian accent.

That aside, I think the conclusions drawn from this study are way too large for the basis of the results given. But since you have other studies presumably which demonstrate similar things it is of course more evidence based.

Oh there are a few more studies within that article and I'm not at work so I don't have access to certain journals but let's just say it is pretty darn pervasive and I don't see how one (a URM one lol) could be unaffected by them.

Not the same study at all, but this one is done with Asians. Thing is with this study, there are mentions of "positive stereotypes" which is almost unheard of for blacks and latinos. This lack of positive stereotypes is interesting since Africans are the most educationally advanced group in America.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=e27bf1870adb0f0c36bc5e4d7a5ac106

3. I agree that certain races generally have different experiences, and that blacks especially have more difficult experiences regarding academics. This is true even between black kids because there is often an internal standard of 'not acting white'. But this is not, in my opinion, something that should be corrected for at the professional school level, because professions should be open to people on the basis of merit only.

Similarly, Asians are often chosen last in team sports because of a perceived inability to play ball. Should DIV-IA teams take that into account when handing out scholarships for basketball? (I realize there are many differences between the two fields, basketball and medicine, which void this example, but the comparison is only meant to address this part of the argument)

Rather, it should be corrected at earlier levels. I fully support additional educational programs at an earlier age, etc.

Ok we totally agree. :hug: But my point is that it's not going to happen any time soon (because the majority of people don't support actual efforts to make changes because they are "reverse racist". AA is the second (not so great) choice.

4. Just so you know I was placed into remedial English after moving from Oregon to California (7th grade), even though I scored in the 99th percentile on the national standardized test and got As or Es (excellent! how I miss those days...).

Wow, sucks! Like seriously. Can you prove that was racist?

The thing about math is that it builds upon itself very quickly so this is a huge blow to a math lover. Pretty hard to catch up in a competitive school like his. But he'll do it. Ironically, my bro sucks at football but his coaches always encourage him (more so than the other kids on the team) talking about how much potential he has. That's great and all, but how do they figure his potential at football when he is consistently dead average 3 years running? 🙄 They are going to wait and wait for that great footballer to develop who they just know is in his slumber.

 

[medactar]

Dokein makes some very good points. Rather than be facetious in your answer, why not acknowledge the flaws of obvious affirmative action in the admissions process?

Are you talking about me? If so, when was I facetious? Did you actually read my response or did you just assume? I hope Dokein gets that I am not being dismissive... I think he does get my stance because he seems to actually read my posts.

Good grief...racism is "multidirectional", not unidirectional. Whites and Asians can very much be victims of racism as well. Your (medactor, sorry for spelling error) anecdote with your brother and interpretation sounds paranoid, and until you have some tangible evidence of wrongdoing, you should hold back on screaming racism. I would blame a garbage public education system.

That was actually my point: racism cannot always be quantified but you know when it's there. It doesn't have to be a sign saying "Whites only". Someone doesn't have to say "I think blacks have inferior intelligence". One "coinkidink" here, another "oopsie" there, more "bad systems" over there. Crazy how all these "oopsies" keep happening to the black kids in his school. The fact that my mother (who is largely in denial about racism even if it's slapping her in the face) noticed ...I'm pretty sure it's there. But like I said, I have ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF

I'll throw in a nice anecdote in too. When I was visiting a friend in East LA, I was harassed at a gas station to no end because I "didn't belong there" (their words, not mine). I was sucker punched and had a knife pulled on me. Was I singled out due to my race? Oh heavens no, racism only comes from the majority right? Maybe I was just being unfriendly, even though I was smiling and minding my own business (granted I was piss scared). Maybe I'm being as paranoid as you are...

Did you read anything I wrote? When did I say racism only comes from the majority? This is the problem. People take "racism" or "racist" as an insult. It is not. Chances are, if you are living in America (black white purple) you have been brainwashed with racism on some level. If the individual (in the U.S.) did not make a conscious decision to run away from racism and actively eliminate it from your psyche, chances are we are all on that conveyor belt leading to racism. In America, you don't have to try to be racist. It just happens... even with the best intentions of the individual. (read some of the articles I linked which studied people with overtly egalitarian world views).

People! Stop taking "racism" as an insult. No defenses necessary. I don't hate or even blame anyone who lives today. I am just being open and honest about the world in which we live. I honestly don't even blame members of the KKK.

We need to reevaluate our current system. Until then, we will continue to have this type of issue.

 

[dokein]

point 1. This lack of positive stereotypes is interesting since Africans are the most educationally advanced group in America.

point 2. Ok we totally agree. :hug: But my point is that it's not going to happen any time soon (because the majority of people don't support actual efforts to make changes because they are "reverse racist". AA is the second (not so great) choice.

point 3. Wow, sucks! Like seriously. Can you prove that was racist?

point 4. The thing about math is that it builds upon itself very quickly so this is a huge blow to a math lover.

1. Well I would argue that the whole football potential thing is a positive stereotype, haha. No but in more seriousness, I think African immigrants are such a small group that they derive most of their stereotypes from the current black population.

The exception is at some universities where they are more well-represented. At least in my major, I see some with asian/white friends all the time, and nobody that I know thinks "oh, dumb guy coming through", because we all know they're very educated. I mean, even on the basketball team (UCLA, so it's not some chump team), one of the starters a couple years ago, immigrant from Africa, finished early and got a Master's.

Interestingly, it appears that the Afro-Americans tend to hang out with each other more, although I won't speculate as to why. Nobody thinks they're dumb either, at least as far as I know.

2. =) Wait I'm Asian so it should be -_- hahaha

Also as a side note, I do not know of any personal benefits from slavery in this country. I was born in Beijing--my parents are not doctors, I did not know any professors, no 'connections' worth writing about, no trust funds, etc.

3. No, I can't. That's sort of my point though, is that it may or may not be racism against your brother, versus general stupidity. I've experienced instances of overt racism (not being given candy on Halloween while my white friend got extra), etc., but who knows how much it really affected me? I wasn't happy after that house, though.

As a side note, part of Oregon was white enough that kids asked teachers if I was black after an all-races-are-equal class.

4. True, but math you can teach yourself. Trust me, middle/high school math is trivial and slow for anyone gifted at it. Hopefully he'll do well!

 

[medactar]

1. I think African immigrants are such a small group that they derive most of their stereotypes from the current black population.

Interestingly, it appears that the Afro-Americans tend to hang out with each other more, although I won't speculate as to why. Nobody thinks they're dumb either, at least as far as I know.

Some would argue Asians are a small minority though, but they still have their stereotypes ... good ones. But I see your point. To the point that you don't see the AfAms or Africans as dumb is interesting. One one level, it is great. But on another level, people who don't consider themselves overt racist will show racist actions when there is an appropriate scapegoat. I think that was the second study in the article linked. [mandatory: not saying "you", just saying]

2.I do not know of any personal benefits from slavery in this country. I was born in Beijing--my parents are not doctors, I did not know any professors, no 'connections' worth writing about, no trust funds, etc.

I bet you didn't "benefit"* directly from slavery. Lots of white Americans didn't directly benefit either because they were later immigrants. But AA isn't about punishing those who benefited. It is about equalizing and affecting social justice for those who were slighted and not just from slavery, but Jim Crow and current covert ways to funnel wealth and resources.

3. No, I can't. That's sort of my point though, is that it may or may not be racism against your brother, versus general stupidity. I've experienced instances of overt racism (not being given candy on Halloween while my white friend got extra), etc., but who knows how much it really affected me? I wasn't happy after that house, though.

As a side note, part of Oregon was white enough that kids asked teachers if I was black after an all-races-are-equal class.

Yeah, it was my point too. Just checking. Many people have experienced overt racism. For many black students, it was in education/ academics so it is extremely relevant and tangible to their accomplishments in the area.

That Halloween lady could say she didn't give you candy because of [insert personal characteristic that doesn't relate to race here]... educators have that same benefit.

Your Oregon story is funny because my boyfriend (who is Indian and looks nothing like a black person) had the same thing happen to him when he went skiing in Vermont. Some girl asked how come black people were there.

4. True, but math you can teach yourself. Trust me, middle/high school math is trivial and slow for anyone gifted at it. Hopefully he'll do well!

He will!

 

[medactar]

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[medactar]

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[medactar]

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[dokein]

Some would argue Asians are a small minority though, but they still have their stereotypes ... good ones.

But AA isn't about punishing those who benefited. It is about equalizing and affecting social justice for those who were slighted and not just from slavery, but Jim Crow and current covert ways to funnel wealth and resources.

That Halloween lady could say she didn't give you candy because of [insert personal characteristic that doesn't relate to race here]... educators have that same benefit.

Well, Asians make up 4.4% and tend to congregate in the West/cities, so it's fairly sizeable exposure, it seems. On the other hand, when's the last time you saw an Asian on TV not in a martial arts role?

Halloween lady explicitly told me why =(

Yes, it's not about punishment, but in a zero-sum game of economics and med school admissions rewarding one population necessitates 'punishing' members not belonging to that population. For example, if you gave $100,000 to every person whose name starts with A, currency would inflate to the point where my bank savings (pretend I'm not a student) would decrease in real value.

 

[medactar]

Yes, it's not about punishment, but in a zero-sum game of economics and med school admissions rewarding one population necessitates 'punishing' members not belonging to that population. For example, if you gave $100,000 to every person whose name starts with A, currency would inflate to the point where my bank savings (pretend I'm not a student) would decrease in real value.

How would you correct for this inflation?

 

[NickNaylor]

Anyone ever take the implicit attitude test? (IAT)

It measures your subconscious positive and/or negative attitudes toward various people groups via implicit associations. Try it.... And if you're brave, I'd dare you to post what you got.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/research/

That wasn't very interesting at all. Who cares which gender I associate with which political party?

 

[runawayclock]

I'm not denying the Matthew Effect doesn't exist here (rich get richer and the poor get poorer). I'm saying it's asinine to try and solve this problem by reducing the requirements for getting into medical school. The solution should be attacked from the root of the issue. For example, by increasing MD's involvement in public schools (e.g. seminars, lectures, etc).

If you can't get into an MD program try DO, PA, or a plethora of other highly respected programs.

I totally agree. The problem should be dealt with by making high school, elementary school, and early childhood education better in poorer/rural/inner city neighborhoods, so more people have a better shot at starting off on an even playing field, not just arbitrarily admitting less qualified candidates based on race/ethnicity. We need more of this sort of thing: http://www.hcz.org/ in every city.