Do medical schools descriminate based on race?

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its history my friend
caligula was a mad roman emperor who likes killing people
so i was saying we could have caligula do what caligula does and make the area's more medically deserved by lowering the amount of people in the area...

yea i was checking to make sure that's what you meant. just.. wow.

You make some ridiculous statements. The statistics on AAMC should be enough proof that ORM and white students do have to go through additional hurdles to stand on equal ground. Did anyone here say race/ethnicity was the only factor? It is a significant factor based on these numbers.


So rather than address these issues or even talk about it, let's...deal with it?
Ludicrous. I'm sure you live in a little bubble, but I happen to be ORM who has had to deal with poverty and difficult life circumstances his whole life.
Poverty has a habit of making people of all ethnic backgrounds miserable, not just URM. That was my point. Admission should be based on socioeconomic background, not race.

I'm glad your world is all rainbows and unicorns; mine isn't.
lol ok. i'm glad the world is out to get you because you're in such a hard position as an ORM. what makes you think i'm not? i'm as overrepresented as it gets. but i deal with it and move on. you wouldn't know rainbows and unicorns if it kicked you in the ass. christ. you realize how small you come off arguing about "equality" for a policy that directly hinders you? i'm not even going to address the random ramblings that make up the bulk of your post because i'm not even sure why it's directed at me.

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Are you seriously asking this question? Wow you're dense. Maybe...Because I was forced to read it as I went down this thread? It's not like I knew ahead of time that you'd post something so irrelevant
the way i'm forced to see threads come up with in the main page?
 
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....

deleted because I really don't want to provoke anyone
 
Who is to say that these 15 people didn't deserve the spots? What makes you think that because they are URM, the spots aren't their own and that they have grades, mcat scores, ec's and experiences to back it up? Like I said before, not every URM is getting in with below par stats. There are more ORM getting in with below par stats than URM just because of the sheer number of ORM matriculants compared to URM. If a URM gets in with below average stats, more often than not there are more ORMs in the same boat since 10 URM (with supposed bad stats) would not drag down an avg MCAT or GPA for 150-200 people. What about these people? Where is the hell being raised about them?

Well said Taylor! 👍
 
I'm not trying to provoke anyone here, but...

Pro-AA people say to ORMs, "Stop whining, work hard, and just be good enough to get in."

How come the same doesn't apply to URMs? How come we can't say to them, "Just be good enough, and stop complaining."

I understand the greater purpose of AA, I really do. I'm just pointing out that there seems to be a double standard in behaviors at times, and a lack of sympathy from both sides.

oddly enough... i'm not whining or complaining and I _am_ good enough. 😴
 
this whole situation is like street ball... if there's a foul, both sides have to call it. if the team that feels it's been fouled on keeps mentioning it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over when there's a game left to play, well, you call them some words that might be appropriately attributed to some posters here based on their behavior.

ps. no matter what we do/say/whine/legitimately debate/think WE HAVE ZERO SAY IN WHAT HAPPENS at the moment. so seriously. let it go.
 
ORM?

I'm guessing some kind of racially/ethnic/socioeconomic term...but really, I have no idea what it stands for...

A little help?🙂
 
I'm not trying to provoke anyone here, but...

Pro-AA people say to ORMs, "Stop whining, work hard, and just be good enough to get in."

How come the same doesn't apply to URMs? How come we can't say to them, "Just be good enough, and stop complaining."

I understand the greater purpose of AA, I really do. I'm just pointing out that there seems to be a double standard in behaviors at times, and a lack of sympathy from both sides.

Thing is that people look at the AAMC stats and overall make the assumption that all med schools are picking URMs with lower stats. 1.There are high stat URMs, a good proportion. The stats are skewed by HBCUs and PR schools that look beyond grades and scores for their mission of serving the underserved. 2. There are confounding factors, that not only affect URMs but since the # of URMs are significantly lower, it seems to be more prevalent (disadvantage, unequal playing field, racism, etc.) You can't have people start on an unequal playing field for most of their lives (not all URMs, I kno, but a significant proportion are a few steps back) then tell them to play catch up. Thats like when slavery was first abolished having the president saying okay, we kept you back for hundreds of years, no education, working in the fields, no worldly possessions, now go be equal. It was less than 100 years ago that URMs were being blatantly not served in restaurants bc they thought we were sub-human. Some ORMs cry foul without investigating the history or need of equal representation. Med school is not a reward for the highest stats. Being a doc is much more than that and the adcoms know that and won't admit people who they think will not cut it.

Everyone should just work to the best of their ability. Thats what I believe. If it is meant to be, it will happen. Run your own race and don't worry about the person on either side of you.
 
Some points I think we can all agree on:

1) Race shouldn't matter.

2) Race DOES matter (to whatever degree) from a patients perspective

3) We should strive for a world with no such racial prejudices


So...What is the best way to diminish racial prejudices? Does anyone think that continuing to allow blacks to get black physicians and whites to get white physicians is making the matter better?

Also, this is supposed to be an intellectual endeavor. It doesn't matter that you've have this debate before...if you are tired of it, simply don't participate. It's a shame if we can't have rational discourse.
 
ORM?

I'm guessing some kind of racially/ethnic/socioeconomic term...but really, I have no idea what it stands for...

A little help?🙂
overrepresented minority (or overrepresented in medicine, more accurately). it's essentially a euphemism for asian (and whites too if we go with the latter).
 
Some things I think we can all agree on:

1) Race shouldn't matter.

2) Race DOES matter (to whatever degree) from a patients perspective

3) We should strive for a world with no such racial prejudices


So...What is the best way to diminish racial prejudices? Does anyone think that continuing to allow blacks to get black physicians and whites to get white physicians is making the matter better?
the approach has to be multifaceted. allowing african americans to have african american doctors is important in the world we live in. we need to fix the pressing issues. then we can address why scores for URMs tend to be lower, etc. as well as broader issues. but that's not really in the purview of an admissions dept. of a med school.
 
LizzyM,

To say one ethnicity can't understand another ethnicity better than his or her own is INCREDIBLY MYOPIC. I'm shocked to hear this from you. My life experiences, and the lived experiences of others, discredit your narrow-minded statement. A person's existence doesn't gravitate solely around his racial/ethnic identity.

True. I've had 3 orthopedic physicians over the years, one Chinese, one Black and one Hispanic (I belong to none of these ethnic/racial groups).

However, particularly as it applies to primary care providers, many black patients are most comfortable in the care of a black physician. Much of this goes back to discrimination and mistreatment of black patients earlier in our nation's history and long remembered in the black community.

Another factor to consider is thinking about diversity on campus. Classroom experiences do force students together in groups not of their own choosing. You can learn a lot (as I do from my students) when in a team with people who have had different cultural backgrounds and life experiences. This isn't just about poor/not poor but goes to geography, race, ethnicity, gender, religious tradition and so forth. Sometimes it is a familiarity with a patient's culture/community that makes it possible to see connections that others may miss or to find a treatment approach that is culturally sensitive and acceptable to the patient. We all learn from one another.
 
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"Everyone just run your own race, etc..."

Yeah...Never mind the man behind the curtain who is making the rules.
I believe people should get very involved in the whole rule-making process and really find out what is going on in the back rooms, and who is calling the shots.
 
what's most important here is that the asians got to draft the wu tang clan.

and that adcoms are their own special chosen race.
 
"Everyone just run your own race, etc..."

Yeah...Never mind the man behind the curtain who is making the rules.
I believe people should get very involved in the whole rule-making process and really find out what is going on in the back rooms, and who is calling the shots.

I agree people should be aware of what is going on but LizzyM and other adcom that I have met have already conveyed the practices of adcoms to some extent. If you were to ask at any interview, I believe that they would say approximately the same thing. I also don't view it as some undercover scheme to exclude anyone from any groups from dealings behind a proverbial "curtains". I would like to think that med schools look at the whole picture and don't view me as just Black applicant....MCAT score....GPA... There are tons of qualified applicants and only a small percentage will get in. Whether that be URM or ORM or whatever. As things stand now, if the system was corrupt, there would be more backlash, more angst. But I don't believe it is. It serves a purpose. URMs still get in at a lower percentage than ORMs (Caucasian, Asian) as LizzyM has shown before. Some with lower stats, some with average stats and some with higher stats just like any other race, ethnicity, religious group, etc.


asians got to draft the wu tang clan.[/B]

and that adcoms are their own special chosen race.]

I am still upset about this, hahaha...and we got Tiger Woods 🙄 Great pick that turned out to be.
 
I forget who said that a black patient from the ghetto would prefer a white doctor from the ghetto as opposed to a black doctor from a privileged background - but whoever it was, come on, you can't really believe that. It is simply not true. The ties of racial background are much stronger than the ties of...ghetto-hood. Lol.
My Asian mother feels a thousand times more comfortable with her Asian doctor. They happen to speak the same language, but my mother speaks English fairly well, and still has opted for Asian doctors in the past even if they don't speak her language. We are lucky because we are Indian and there are plenty of Indian doctors to go around. I think it's sad that other ethnicities, often the ones who need it the most, do not have that option.

These things are unfair when you look at it at an individual level (why did my black friend who scored five points lower than me on the MCAT get an interview from XYZ school and I didn't??) Look at it from the perspective of social needs, where we are as a country currently and what kind of country we want to become, and suddenly it makes more sense.

BTW, kudos to Taylor MD for very well-articulated posts.
 
I forget who said that a black patient from the ghetto would prefer a white doctor from the ghetto as opposed to a black doctor from a privileged background - but whoever it was, come on, you can't really believe that. It is simply not true. The ties of racial background are much stronger than the ties of...ghetto-hood. Lol.
My Asian mother feels a thousand times more comfortable with her Asian doctor. They happen to speak the same language, but my mother speaks English fairly well, and still has opted for Asian doctors in the past even if they don't speak her language. We are lucky because we are Indian and there are plenty of Indian doctors to go around. I think it's sad that other ethnicities, often the ones who need it the most, do not have that option.

These things are unfair when you look at it at an individual level (why did my black friend who scored five points lower than me on the MCAT get an interview from XYZ school and I didn't??) Look at it from the perspective of social needs, where we are as a country currently and what kind of country we want to become, and suddenly it makes more sense.

BTW, kudos to Taylor MD for very well-articulated posts.

you can't possibly know that your "black friend" got an interview at ACME and you didn't because he's BLACK (unless it's maybe howard..). I don't think it's useful or accurate to think about the admissions process like this.

Who knows? Maybe your personal statement gave off an attitude of entitlement that your post betrays.
 
you can't possibly know that your "black friend" got an interview at ACME and you didn't because he's BLACK (unless it's maybe howard..). I don't think it's useful or accurate to think about the admissions process like this.

Who knows? Maybe your personal statement gave off an attitude of entitlement that your post betrays.

wait, WHAT? I meant that is the type of complaint I usually hear on this forum from ORMs, and then I explained why that kind of attitude is not right. I'm not even complaining about anything! I'm perfectly happy with how I'm doing in this cycle!

I don't know why I keep commenting on these kind of forums. People jump all over everyone without even reading what has been said. Frankly, I think you were out of line in attacking me. I was defending the social need for more URM doctors.
 
Maybe I didn't articulate myself well. I meant that these things SEEM unfair only on an individual level, and people need to step back and look at the big picture before they jump to conclusions.

I really don't want to offend anyone or come off as "entitled".
 
Maybe I didn't articulate myself well. I meant that these things SEEM unfair only on an individual level, and people need to step back and look at the big picture before they jump to conclusions.

I really don't want to offend anyone or come off as "entitled".


OOPS!! sorry i'm a huge idiot. I read your first paragraph as "blah blah mom this blah that" and skipped to the second. If you only read the second paragraph you can kind of get an idea of how it could fool a dummy like myself.

that comment was for the imaginary person who would indeed say such things.

probably time for me to sleep.. 😴
 
I forget who said that a black patient from the ghetto would prefer a white doctor from the ghetto as opposed to a black doctor from a privileged background - but whoever it was, come on, you can't really believe that. It is simply not true. The ties of racial background are much stronger than the ties of...ghetto-hood. Lol.
My Asian mother feels a thousand times more comfortable with her Asian doctor. They happen to speak the same language, but my mother speaks English fairly well, and still has opted for Asian doctors in the past even if they don't speak her language. We are lucky because we are Indian and there are plenty of Indian doctors to go around. I think it's sad that other ethnicities, often the ones who need it the most, do not have that option.

These things are unfair when you look at it at an individual level (why did my black friend who scored five points lower than me on the MCAT get an interview from XYZ school and I didn't??) Look at it from the perspective of social needs, where we are as a country currently and what kind of country we want to become, and suddenly it makes more sense.

BTW, kudos to Taylor MD for very well-articulated posts.

Thank you. It just gets me a little agitated when I feel like I have to defend my place in this world because there are people out there that believe I 1. shouldn't be here or 2. don't deserve to be here. I believe that progress is slowly occurring at the behest of some people who want to keep negative traditions alive. Hopefully, there won't be many more of these threads because they seem to pop up like weeds every week or two. I just want to educate people of different backgrounds that wouldn't regularly talk about these type of topics with my own perspective as a Black pre-med entering med school next year. Its good to see other people's perspectives. There is no need to be abrasive with anyone (I don't mean you), we can just have a civil conversation about topics that matter to us without getting nasty about it.
 
It saddens me that so many of you want to become medical doctors.
 
are far as i'm aware, there aren't different usmle tests for different ethnicities. No matter what race your surgeon is, he/she took the same test that every other surgeon took - and therefore, has achieved at least a certain level of qualification. And please don't blame the fact that you haven't been accepted because you're white - stop making excuses for your deficiencies.


bong.
 
omg, seriously, this topic, again?

Look, for what it's worth: I go to a top 20 medical school, i'm hispanic, my gpa was good, my mcat was below the school's average. There's got to be like 13/14 hispanic people in my class out of 230, even less black people (wow they're really taking all those spots in med school....🙄), but i can speak for myself and some of my friends in saying that we're kicking butt. Yeah, my mcat "did not merit" my acceptance as some of you may think, but i've (as well as the majority of the minorities i know) have been scoring in the 2nd quartile or above on almost all of the exams. I'm so sick and tired of people thinking that we don't deserve to get into medical school because we didn't have perfect stats (the objective stats like gpa and mcat score aren't the only requirements for getting into medical school). The fact of the matter is, you're not in the admissions committee, you don't know what they want or what they're looking for, but it sure is easy to blame a minority when a white person or asian with perfect stats didn't get in, right?.....

You guys really need to stop making us the scapegoats, it's sad really. Who knows why a person with all the perfect stats and 100 hours of research experience didn't get in? It could be a piss poor interview, it could be that he/she wasn't memorable, who knows? Blaming minorities for "taking all the spots" is just ridiculous, especially when i'm positive no one is on any of these med school admissions committees and knows what they're looking for exactly.

Oh yeah, and i have a friend that goes to a med school in texas with a total of 3, that's right, three, black people (himself included). Wow, watch out. Do they have enough spots for the rest of you guys?.....🙄

bong bong.
 
I'm of asian descent and I was wondering if I could leave the race part blank, I feel as though its a disadvantage for me because something tells me I'm not a minority anymore -_-
 
I'm of asian descent and I was wondering if I could leave the race part blank, I feel as though its a disadvantage for me because something tells me I'm not a minority anymore -_-

Yeah you can "decline to respond." I did, but I was asked why I didn't answer that part in two of my interviews.
 
I'm of asian descent and I was wondering if I could leave the race part blank, I feel as though its a disadvantage for me because something tells me I'm not a minority anymore -_-

But wouldn't your name give away your ethnicity anyways?

Unless you are an Asian with a name like Joe Smith.

I agree that Asians are being discriminated due to over-representation considering their minority status in the US...
 
FYI: if you look up the stats, "declined to respond" category actually has a higher mcat and gpa average for matriculation than whites. So you cannot dodge the race bias if you are white. For Asians, I am not exactly sure. The numbers are pretty close, although I think Asians might be at an advantage to "decline to respond". It sucks living in a a discriminatory world. Equality is what MLK wanted. What would he think?
 
Tuskegee.

My mom is a social worker for the state and has several old black residents who still absolutely refuse to see and trust a white doctor. On a side note, my pcp is african american and I'm white. Everytime I go the place is jammed packed with african americans. Let's face it, aa would like to go to an aa doctor, a hispanic to a hispanic doctor who can speak spanish, etc.
 
FYI: if you look up the stats, "declined to respond" category actually has a higher mcat and gpa average for matriculation than whites. So you cannot dodge the race bias if you are white. For Asians, I am not exactly sure. The numbers are pretty close, although I think Asians might be at an advantage to "decline to respond". It sucks living in a a discriminatory world. Equality is what MLK wanted. What would he think?

Discriminatory? Hmm. Strong choice of words. I think people use the word without really looking into the practices of many med schools. We have our own resident adcom here who has shed light on this issue and provided data to back it up as have many others in this forum. I don't think that Asians or Caucasians are at a any strong disadvantage especially since both groups still get into med school at higher percentages than all URM groups. Strong candidates of all races, ethnicities and creeds are being rejected from med school. There are only so many spots. If you want to complain, complain about the pending doctor shortage and how they should open up more seats at every school. Still, even then, there will be qualified applicants left out in the cold.
 
I agree that Asians are being discriminated due to over-representation considering their minority status in the US...

I agree to that, Asians are very much a minority in this country. Tough enough to get into medical school but its even harder trying to match some of the crazy averages that asians have.

Medschool expect too much of us :laugh:

My PCP who is also my parent PCP is African-American and hes very nice. Then I went to the other MD (who's white) in the same practice and he decided to rip me off. $25 dollars to sign his name on a piece of paper, when my PCP does it for FREE!! (My PCP as on vacation and I needed some paperwork done)
 
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"Life is unfair. Learn to deal with it. Be the strongest applicant you can be and don't whine if you aren't good enough."

Sorry, but I find this comment to be utterly ridiculous coming from a school admin and would expect you to be more professional. Seriously that was a ridiculous comment. Should african americans and women just have sucked it up and dealt with open oppression in the past because life just wasn't fair? Really? Should we continue to ignore the blatant racial prejudice in favor of minorities and against majorities currently because life just isn't fair?

Wow, I am flabbergasted.

Hahaha :laugh: +1 sylvanthus
 
I disagree. I believe that a poor black patient could probably relate more to a black doctor who came from a privileged background than a white doctor of any background. Ditto people of other ethnicities.

As far as I know, no one has been denied admission BECAUSE of their race, sex or ethnicity. I've never known a cap or a quota. As with undergrad college, there is an attempt to admit a wide variety of applicants ... does the fact that we admit some self-identified homosexuals mean that we are discriminating against heterosexuals or making it harder for qualified heterosexuals to be admitted?

I think affirmative action is unethical, but I understand the point that medicine is more often a practical system.

Is there any evidence showing that black doctors in black communities have better outcomes than white doctors in black communities?

I understand there are studies that show that a black person is more likely to choose a black doctor, but I am not willing to accept AA just for a weak result. I am, however, willing to accept AA in order to generate better health outcomes.

I also understand that feeling more comfortable with your doctor leads to better histories and that in turn leads to better outcomes, but for example, my parents who are Asian did not want to see a white doctor, but had their concerns quickly ameliorated within the first few minutes. So a study should be present, and I am not aware of any.

Failing this criteria, I feel that if there are not enough doctors to serve underpriviledged communities then that is a matter of compensation and incentives, or else excessive job openings in 'better' areas and not enough doctors.

As far as your knowledge goes that nobody has been denied on the basis of their ethnicity, it's simple mathematics:

The accepted group is a defined population A. Members are chosen from separate populations B (URM) and C (other), where A>B+C. Giving more advantage to population B necessitates giving disadvantage to population C.

I agree that it is not much of a disadvantage. Therefore for each individual candidate, it is in their best interest to work on their own application and not worry about others.

However, that does not make it ethical.

The homosexuality example is ridiculous. I'll argue that point as soon as there is a box on the AMCAS application saying URS (underrepresented sexuality), which schools take into consideration for admission.

NOTE: For what it's worth I have already been accepted into a top school and am not personally affected by whatever changes may or may not be made.
 
Yeah you can "decline to respond." I did, but I was asked why I didn't answer that part in two of my interviews.

I chose to decline to respond, and wrote about my heritage (I am a ORM) in my PS. Nobody asked me about it.

Shall they asked me, I would have directly told them that I do not feel that my race have any bearing to the application.
 
True. I've had 3 orthopedic physicians over the years, one Chinese, one Black and one Hispanic (I belong to none of these ethnic/racial groups).

However, particularly as it applies to primary care providers, many black patients are most comfortable in the care of a black physician. Much of this goes back to discrimination and mistreatment of black patients earlier in our nation's history and long remembered in the black community.

Another factor to consider is thinking about diversity on campus. Classroom experiences do force students together in groups not of their own choosing. You can learn a lot (as I do from my students) when in a team with people who have had different cultural backgrounds and life experiences. This isn't just about poor/not poor but goes to geography, race, ethnicity, gender, religious tradition and so forth. Sometimes it is a familiarity with a patient's culture/community that makes it possible to see connections that others may miss or to find a treatment approach that is culturally sensitive and acceptable to the patient. We all learn from one another.

So Lizzy, I wonder, when it comes to URMs, I am sure there are many of us who could apply as URMs if we so desire (i.e., have a "URM" racial background) but have minimal connection with said background. I am not so sure that leveraging that background as a physician later on would be of any true benefit to my patients, nor to my fellow students in a medical school setting.

The fact is that, personally, I have more of a cultural connection to another URM group through multiple visits to another country and relationships built stateside with people of that ethnic group. For someone like that who has a desire to serve underserved people groups (perhaps including the one from which he belongs but certainly not limited to it and probably more focused on the other URM ethnic group), would it be acceptable to apply URM or should one instead avoid playing that card due to the weak link to one's heritage? Are people considered both in terms of "under/over-representedness" and "desire to serve underserved populations" or is it only the first category (at most schools and/or at your school in particular)?
 
In addition, several points made in this thread are also questionable:

1. What about URMs who have excellent qualifications (GPA, MCAT, extracurriculars, research, etc.)?

Good for them, and they likely would have been admitted if the URM box did not exist. This is not an argument in favor of AA.

2. URMs have a lower acceptance rate than whites and asians.

This cannot be taken as an argument without knowing the average application. The only measurements we have are MCAT and GPA, and stratified for those factors, URMs have a much better chance of being accepted.

3. URMs higher acceptance rates at lower categories can be attributed to Howard, Caribbeans, etc.

The differences in percent accepted still exist after MCATs and GPAs > 33 and 3.6. Those differences (85% for white/asian and 95% for URM, note: this is from my memory of the AAMC table, which for some reason is not loading) are not likely accounted for by said schools.

4. The impact on asians/whites are small because of the population difference

The impact of me stealing 1 cent from every bank account and transferring it to my own is barely noticeable, as was the plot of a movie, is still highly unethical.

5. Your spot was not stolen because of some URM.

In relation to points 1. and 5., this is likely true but irrelevant. Nobody should whine about not getting in because in the end it was still there performance. However, it is still not an ideal process, and changes in the process are most likely to be demanded by those who the process negatively effects.
 
Shall they asked me, I would have directly told them that I do not feel that my race have any bearing to the application.


I'm probably going to do the same when my time to apply comes. I've stopped marking myself as White on forms asking about my "race".
 
I'm probably going to do the same when my time to apply comes. I've stopped marking myself as White on forms asking about my "race".


It's going to be pretty obvious post-interview, unless you can fake a South-African accent the whole time 😀
 
I'm probably going to do the same when my time to apply comes. I've stopped marking myself as White on forms asking about my "race".

Haha, if it's for something serious, I mark "multiethnic" as that's technically what I am. (Unless it's not an option, in which case I mark something really obscure.) Otherwise, I just draw random check-marks and circles on the page in that section! (Despite the possibility of receiving some sort of "bonus" by marking my minority status on some app, I really don't believe it's relevant for most jobs and such, so I'd rather just screw w/ it. Unless one's racial/ethnic status bears some sort of direct influence upon one's ability to perform the duties of the position, I do not believe it is justified to hire or accept applicants based upon racial or ethnic background.)

While ethnicity is important, for most positions, I think it is generally irrelevant and while we must be sensitive toward the needs and hypersensitivities of other people groups (I have things I am hypersensitive toward as well -- we all do), there does need to be some limit upon these things. I recall an experience I had a few years ago while managing at an old job. One of my employees didn't notice something a white kid was doing and then later another employee called out this black woman's kid on the same thing and she had a hissy fit (the first employee was on a special assignment from my boss and it was not her responsibility, which I explained to the woman but she didn't think that was a valid reason for this girl to have not done someone else's job). She was redirected to me by the staff and, of course, I was empathetic and all and was able to successfully deescalate her after a few minutes but come on. Somebody (who has that kind of a relationship with this woman) needs to tell that woman like it is -- not everything in life is going to be fair and it often has nothing to do with the color of your skin; however, if you make it all about the color of your skin, pretty soon people are going to be pretty PO'd at you and soon it really will be due to the color of your skin (indirectly)!
 
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As far as your knowledge goes that nobody has been denied on the basis of their ethnicity, it's simple mathematics:

The accepted group is a defined population A. Members are chosen from separate populations B (URM) and C (other), where A>B+C. Giving more advantage to population B necessitates giving disadvantage to population C.

No one being denied admission on the basis of their ethnicity is not the same as saying that some applicants of a given ethnicity will be denied admission.

Being in the inner circle for several cycles, I have never heard anyone suggest that we not admit someone because of their race, ethnicity or sex. No one suggests that we don't want to admit this applicant because she's Asian or because he's white.
apumic said:
So Lizzy, I wonder, when it comes to URMs, I am sure there are many of us who could apply as URMs if we so desire (i.e., have a "URM" racial background) but have minimal connection with said background. I am not so sure that leveraging that background as a physician later on would be of any true benefit to my patients, nor to my fellow students in a medical school setting.

The fact is that, personally, I have more of a cultural connection to another URM group through multiple visits to another country and relationships built stateside with people of that ethnic group. For someone like that who has a desire to serve underserved people groups (perhaps including the one from which he belongs but certainly not limited to it and probably more focused on the other URM ethnic group), would it be acceptable to apply URM or should one instead avoid playing that card due to the weak link to one's heritage? Are people considered both in terms of "under/over-representedness" and "desire to serve underserved populations" or is it only the first category (at most schools and/or at your school in particular)?

Race and ethnicity on the AMCAS is a matter of self-identification. Marking one thing rather than another on the page may make it more likely that you will be invited for interview, all other things being equal. However, you may be questioned during the interview about your connections to your ethinic community and if you don't have a clue then that will be factored into the admission decisions. This doesn't mean that you won't be offered admission if you have only weak ties to your ethnic community but more likely that any "advantage" will be zero'ed out and you will rise or fall on the rest of your application alone.

As for having ties to an ethnic community other than your own, this is best described in the AMCAS essay and highlighted in the interview.

Do keep in mind that if no URM were admitted to any school (including the historically black schools and the schools in Puerto Rico) and if every one of those seats were given to a white or Asian applicant, there would still be more than 10,000 white and/or Asian applicants who would not get into med school.
 
I come from a wealthy family which probably has just as many problems as any poor family. Where is the check box for alcoholic parents? Where is the check box for mental and physical abuse? Where is the check box for dealing with watching their brother seizure and code on methamphetamines? Point is there are poor families who provide a much more conducive environment for learning than wealthy ones.

This seems just as illogical to me as choosing who gets admitted to the NFL based on race. No matter how hard I work, I do not have the physical attributes to be an NFL football player. I'm sure they wouldn't care if I tried really hard either.



I would have to disagree with you, as a member of a refugee family from Afghanistan, I had to work near full-time hours all throughout my junior high and high school years to help support my parents to insure that we would had a place to live and food to eat. Education is not a priority when you need to worry about your basic living needs.

College? I couldn't even apply to college until I was 27 years old and my families financial situation had drastically improved. If I hadn't worked hard to help pull my parents out of tough financial times, I would have never been able to apply to college - let alone selfishly devote myself to the 12+ year process of becoming a doctor. Most of the other disadvantaged students that I knew were never able to leave work and do this, they are now in their 30's telling me how lucky I am, and that they wish they had the opportunity I had to go back and finish school.

Oh and don't take for granted the reading and writing skills that you have obtained throughout your junior and senior high school years. I was never able to focus on that, when I eventually did get a chance to pursue college I had no idea how to study, for anything! I had to take a boat load of remedial english and writing courses at the CC just to get to a level where I can finally begin my major in chemistry.

Math and Sciences? I had to restart from algebra I, II and precalculus before I could even begin to consider calculus.

Sciences? I didn't even remember taking a Biology course in HS, although I clearly did since it was on my HS transcript. Most of the students I had to compete with at UVA not only remembered their high school science courses, but they still had most of the concepts down as if they taught their HS courses. Talk about a disadvantage.

So while I agree with you, emotional problems such as alcoholic parents or a drug addicted brother can hinder your psychological well being in school - you still have every opportunity to do well. Whether you do or not eventually comes down to you and how you handle those problems. The fact that you were even able to go to college after high school is an opportunity that most disadvantaged students do not have. And of the disadvantaged population that is able to go to college, an even smaller portion of them are able to devote themselves to medicine. Which not only puts them in debt, but also keeps them from contributing to their families financial situation for over a decade at the least.

And your NFL analogy is horrible, medical schools are not admitting students that they feel cannot succeed. The URM and disadvantaged students that they do offer admittance to can compete and do just as well in med school. I am sure that if you could compete with NFL players, and prove to them that you could, than you would have a pretty good chance of making it to the NFL.
 
Who is to say that these 15 people didn't deserve the spots? What makes you think that because they are URM, the spots aren't their own and that they have grades, mcat scores, ec's and experiences to back it up? Like I said before, not every URM is getting in with below par stats. There are more ORM getting in with below par stats than URM just because of the sheer number of ORM matriculants compared to URM. If a URM gets in with below average stats, more often than not there are more ORMs in the same boat since 10 URM (with supposed bad stats) would not drag down an avg MCAT or GPA for 150-200 people. What about these people? Where is the hell being raised about them?

Your bringing in way too much logic for this thread.

Everyone knows that all URMs wouldn't be there if not for their URM status.





























































/sarcasm.
 
I would have to disagree with you, as a member of a refugee family from Afghanistan, ..QUOTE]

There is a disadvantaged portion of your application; your immigration issues are irrelevant to URM status. A person born in North Korea who nearly loses his or her life and defects to South Korea and then swims across the ocean here to sell used underwear for .01 cents while studying for the MCAT under broken lampposts would have an incredible disadvantaged story, but would not be considered URM.

Although noted, the person you were responding to did not specifically address URM either.
 

I have said before why I don't believe the world of medicine is a strict meritocracy, and why it shouldn't be!

"...SOCIETY puts everyone and everything in categories. That's just how it is. A black patient from a disadvantaged area is probably going to feel much more comfortable with a black doctor with the same background than with a white doctor who had super-rich parents and went to ivy-league schools etc. Patients need to be able to relate and communicate with their doctors.

Which brings me to my next point, the world of medicine isn't a strict meritocracy. If you're a brilliant physicist who has done groundbreaking research, then you are more likely to win the Nobel prize over other physicists that haven't done ground-breaking research. But medicine is different. Medicine isn't just about the science - it's about the PEOPLE i.e. the patients. Otherwise, anyone with a 4.0 GPA and 37 MCAT without any EC's should get automatic admission, because he/she has proved that they are more than capable of handling medical school. But we find that that's often not the case - a person with lower stats but with much better EC's may have a better chance of getting into medical school.

That's the difference."
 
No one being denied admission on the basis of their ethnicity is not the same as saying that some applicants of a given ethnicity will be denied admission.

Being in the inner circle for several cycles, I have never heard anyone suggest that we not admit someone because of their race, ethnicity or sex. No one suggests that we don't want to admit this applicant because she's Asian or because he's white.

I'm not saying that all Asians and whites should be accepted, and that is a straw man argument.

If there are 100 spots, and only GPA, MCAT, extracurricular activities, and financial disadvantage were considered, the number of URMs admitted would be reduced. Not 0, but reduced.

So let's say there is no URM criteria and 13 spots are given to URMs. With the addition of the critiera, 15 URMs are be admitted.

If the class size remains the same, that means 2 asians/whites that would otherwise get in would NOT get in.

That's not to say that at any point in the process you said; **** this guy is so white you'd have to slap him to get any color in his cheeks, let's not admit him. But it does mean that at some point in the process you said, guy/gal A's URM connections would be good for the racial and ethnic diversity of our class, which means later on when you're choosing between guys/gals B-Z, there's one less spot.
 
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