do no-name med schools hurt residency chances much?

[bodonid]

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It looks like I will be lucky enough to get a few acceptances this go-round, but I am in a bit of a predicament. I am looking at two schools that I feel blah about and one that I am psyched about. The problem? The one I like is super easy to get into and is ranked in the bottom 50% in all of the rankings. (Not saying i buy the rankings, but just to put it out there.) The other two aren't top 10 material either, but are more -established- than mine. My question? I have seen rankings of thinks that are important to residency people and most of them talk about board scores, rotation grades, first two year grades, ECs, and AOA-like organizations. How much does school name matter if I try for a competitive residency? (Not uber-competitive)

 

[Phoenix.]

Most people on SDN will say it doesn't matter where you go to med school. However, I was just inundated by a group of 15 med students applying for orthopedic surgical residencies at Mayo. They claimed that while you can still get into top residencies from any school, if you don't get stellar scores, your med school (or rather, the connections you may get through your med school's connections) can be very helpful. The people interviewing were from schools like Pritzker, Rosalind Franklin, Univ of Penn, Univ of Cincinnati, Hawaii, etc. All over the place. Also, if your school really gives you good research opportunities, that can help too if you're trying to get into a field/residency that value that. The point is to just go to the med school that matches your interests best (and thus which you will thrive best at), and which may give you the best connections (there is also a regional aspect to this, with a med school likely having good connections to local residencies). It will all pan out. And of course, if you're the type that tests well and can rock step I, it probably won't matter much where you go. Just work on getting into schools now, and wait to see what acceptances you have before making any rash decisions.

 

[ZagDoc]

Not as much as people like to believe.

In the order of things that are important for getting into residency, the list looks something like this:
1. Interview
2. Step 1 Scores
3. Year 3 Clinical Grades
4. Letters of Recommendation
5. Step 2 Scores
6. Yr 1/2 grades
...
25. Name of medical school

The main thing to consider with med schools is that schools generally have better luck getting students into residencies in the same area of the states (which makes sense, since your various department heads/sources of letters of rec are more likely to be known by residency directors in the same part of the states). So if youre in a middle of the road med school in the southwest and apply to a residency in maryland, the residency directors are more likely to see the names on your letters and go "wait who is that?" and who you know and who gives a stamp of approval on you goes a long way in medicine.

But the main gist is that where you go to medical school hardly matters compared to how you PERSONALLY succeed in medical school. If you're applying with a 265 step score and strong letters you're a very strong applicant at all but the most competitive residencies.

 

[Bond8204]

It looks like I will be lucky enough to get a few acceptances this go-round, but I am in a bit of a predicament. I am looking at two schools that I feel blah about and one that I am psyched about. The problem? The one I like is super easy to get into and is ranked in the bottom 50% in all of the rankings. (Not saying i buy the rankings, but just to put it out there.) The other two aren't top 10 material either, but are more -established- than mine. My question? I have seen rankings of thinks that are important to residency people and most of them talk about board scores, rotation grades, first two year grades, ECs, and AOA-like organizations. How much does school name matter if I try for a competitive residency? (Not uber-competitive)

Basically all of those things that you've listed could be classified as "doing really well at your school." Knowing a few students in medical school right now, I think you should go to the medical school you're "really psyched about"...the one you feel is the best fit and the one you feel you'd be happiest at. I feel those factors will contribute towards you "doing really well" at your school.

There's only approx 125 med schools in the country. That means there are no "no-name" schools. Being at the top of your class in a given medical school will make you more competitive than attending one that's in the top 50.

 

[0Complications]

Not as much as people like to believe.

In the order of things that are important for getting into residency, the list looks something like this:
1. Interview
2. Step 1 Scores
3. Year 3 Clinical Grades
4. Letters of Recommendation
5. Step 2 Scores
6. Yr 1/2 grades
...
25. Name of medical school

The main thing to consider with med schools is that schools generally have better luck getting students into residencies in the same area of the states (which makes sense, since your various department heads/sources of letters of rec are more likely to be known by residency directors in the same part of the states). So if youre in a middle of the road med school in the southwest and apply to a residency in maryland, the residency directors are more likely to see the names on your letters and go "wait who is that?" and who you know and who gives a stamp of approval on you goes a long way in medicine.

But the main gist is that where you go to medical school hardly matters compared to how you PERSONALLY succeed in medical school. If you're applying with a 265 step score and strong letters you're a very strong applicant at all but the most competitive residencies.

Aren't your number 1 and 2 swapped? I would think it's hard to get an interview without a step 1 score.

 

[Bond8204]

granted...being in the top half of Harvard will look better than top half of a lesser known school, obviously. But the slight edge you might get from going to slightly more prestigious schools that you're unenthusiastic about will be nullified by how miserable you might make yourself.

 

[Bond8204]

Aren't your number 1 and 2 swapped? I would think it's hard to get an interview without a step 1 score.

It'd be hard to get an interview without any of the other things on the list...

.........I think he was ranking their weight all things considered.

 

[drizzt3117]

I think it can make a difference, but there's going to be a selection bias just like there is in medical school applications. My brother noted that on the interview trail for a very competitive speciality (urology), nearly everyone at the interview days for the top programs was from top schools. Clearly this is a function of good students going to good schools, but if residency directors consistently get good residents out of a given institution, they may prefer to keep going to that well <shrug>.

That said, my cousin's finance just matched into combined plastics after graduating from VCU.

 

[ZagDoc]

Aren't your number 1 and 2 swapped? I would think it's hard to get an interview without a step 1 score.

It'd be hard to get an interview without any of the other things on the list...

.........I think he was ranking their weight all things considered.

Exactly. The top two things of import to residency directors are competence (demonstrated by clinical grades and Step 1 score) and fit within the program (demonstrated by your interview and letters of rec).

Another thing that seems to "bias" toward certain schools is how well they prepare their students for the boards. If students from a given school consistently score better then the national average in board scores, of course more students from those universities will be represented in competitive residencies nationwide. As well as research opportunities which was previously stated.

 

[lord_jeebus]

Just interviewed at Stanford for anesthesia.

I saw that on my evaluation sheet were four things for either the interviewer or the program (not sure which) to rate.

One was "medical school" on a 5 point scale. I was a little disappointed to see it rated 3/5.

However they gave my research their highest ranking, which it really doesn't deserve (zero publications, lots of crappy data).

My board scores might be the highest in the field I'm applying to (one interviewer said so today), and my letters and grades are excellent (so say my interviewers). Nonetheless there are more than a few programs that are not interested in interviewing me. The Harvard and UCSF students I encounter on the trail are getting interviews everywhere, without exception.

 

[lord_jeebus]

1. Interview
2. Step 1 Scores
3. Year 3 Clinical Grades
4. Letters of Recommendation
5. Step 2 Scores
6. Yr 1/2 grades
...
25. Name of medical school

My impression is there is a lot of variation between programs. Overall, I think med school name is between #5 and #6 on your list (which looks reasonable otherwise)

 

[drizzt3117]

The Harvard and UCSF students I encounter on the trail are getting interviews everywhere, without exception.

Sometimes it seems like residency interviews are as capricious as med school interviews... my brother interviewed at Hopkins, Penn, Mayo, CCF, UCSF, Stanford, Leahy, Brigham, MGH, NU, UC, Duke, Baylor, UWash, Wash U, etc... I think 18 total interviews for urology, but failed to get USC or UCLA invites FWIW.

 

[lord_jeebus]

Sometimes it seems like residency interviews are as capricious as med school interviews... my brother interviewed at Hopkins, Penn, Mayo, CCF, UCSF, Stanford, Leahy, Brigham, MGH, NU, UC, Duke, Baylor, UWash, Wash U, etc... I think 18 total interviews for urology, but failed to get USC or UCLA invites FWIW.

Urology is much more competitive than anesthesia, so I'm not that surprised.

 

[HumidBeing]

"do no-name med schools hurt residency chances much?"

Stewert Med school doesn't seem to think so.😀

 

[TheRealMD]

I always thought that there was a regional bias towards which school you came from (not that if it were true, they'd publicly say that).

The real problem arises going to a school that you know you'll probably dislike but is well ranked. And I think most med students would argue that's a bad idea for many reasons.

 

[The Buff]

Not as much as people like to believe.

..and a little more than the people on SDN would like to think.

 

[MsJLewis]

I'm sorta friends with this doctor at Columbia who is one of the people in charge of the residency program in internal medicine. He was giving me some advice on applying and he tried to stress that the school you go to definitely plays a significant factor in where you interview. But he didn't make it sound like if you went to a non top-tier school that you were doomed.. it was just another hurdle you had to overcome.

My boss also happened to introduce me to an MD from U Chicago (and this was only when I had one acceptance to Tufts). He grilled me on where I was applying and when I told him about my acceptance he was like "Meh.. Its a great school if you want to be a doctor, but if you want to go into academic medicine you want to go to a big name school". That was a depressing conversation...

 

[154465]

Well this thread sure is discouraging. This whole time I'm thinking if I can get an acceptance to Wayne I will be just fine, apparently it isn't that simple!

 

[XerxesMD]

Just interviewed at Stanford for anesthesia.

I saw that on my evaluation sheet were four things for either the interviewer or the program (not sure which) to rate.

One was "medical school" on a 5 point scale. I was a little disappointed to see it rated 3/5.

It's very interesting to hear about residencies scoring medschools out of 5. This confirms my suspicion about this topic, though I didn't think anyone would actually quantify your medical school's reputation. I have always thought where you went to school mattered in terms of residency competitiveness, but many SDNers have been rather vehemently opposed to this notion whenever I've asked about it or read threads about it.

If it didn't matter, why would a spot at UCSF or HMS be so coveted to begin with? Certainly, it's not the end of the world if you don't goto UCSF or HMS or wherever. I'm sure you can land competitive residency spots from lower ranked/lesser known medschools if you have the scores, evals and LORs, etc. to back you up. But for whatever reason, some people continually insist that which medschool you goto does not matter at all, and I think that's total nonsense.

 

[Gut Shot]

It's very interesting to hear about residencies scoring medschools out of 5. This confirms my suspicion about this topic,

I wouldn't let a single anecdotal data point confirm or deny any suspicion.

The notion that school name will be the deciding factor between success and failure is so absurd as to be perverse. I would grant that if you want to do neurosurgery at UCSF then you probably need to be an MD/PhD from UCSF, but such situations describe only a handful of people. If your goal is to simply do neurosurgery, and you have the goods, then you can do that from any school in the country. I had classmates go to both UCSF for neurosurgery and Harvard for ENT, and my East Coast alma mater is about as middle-of-the-pack as they come... that's n=2!

 

[AlexMorph]

I wouldn't let a single anecdotal data point confirm or deny any suspicion.

The notion that school name will be the deciding factor between success and failure is so absurd as to be perverse. I would grant that if you want to do neurosurgery at UCSF then you probably need to be an MD/PhD from UCSF, but such situations describe only a handful of people. If your goal is to simply do neurosurgery, and you have the goods, then you can do that from any school in the country. I had classmates go to both UCSF for neurosurgery and Harvard for ENT, and my East Coast alma mater is about as middle-of-the-pack as they come... that's n=2!

I waiting for you to chime in. Your take on any matter is usually the most honest and quite blunt.

 

[45408]

Well this thread sure is discouraging. This whole time I'm thinking if I can get an acceptance to Wayne I will be just fine, apparently it isn't that simple!

I would bet that Wayne has matched grads into every available specialty out there. Don't sweat it too much. You just do the best that you can either way.

 

[Textuality]

Does school matter? Probably(as is the opinion of many m4 I've met) . Should that be your primary reason for choosing a medical school? Probably not.

I think it might matter a little more than undergraduate mattered for us applying to med school.

Just my two cents.

 

[chudog15]

since we've established that med school reputations do matter, what would be the cutoffs for different "tiers"? specifically where would schools like emory, mt sinai and case be?

 

[prettymonkey]

The one I like is super easy to get into

ummmm medical school is super easy to get into?? why am i a reapplicant?? 😕

so if there are 125 medical schools then what is considered top tier? are there 3 tiers? so top 40 is "top"?

 

[VoiceofReason]

I know that the entire list of selection factors for one school was disclosed in the surgery forum. Actually it was for an ortho program, which is basically the most competitive by and large I think. Reputation of medical school was like number 12 or something ridiculously low. Lower half of the list and the list was 25 or more items long.

 

[drizzt3117]

since we've established that med school reputations do matter, what would be the cutoffs for different "tiers"? specifically where would schools like emory, mt sinai and case be?

Just look at the match lists. Look at several years and that will help you avoid selection bias.

 

[beachblonde]

ummmm medical school is super easy to get into?? why am i a reapplicant?? 😕

so if there are 125 medical schools then what is considered top tier? are there 3 tiers? so top 40 is "top"?

I was going to ask what medical school this is that is so easy to get accepted to. Apparently I'm applying to the wrong schools.

 

[diosa428]

As was already stated, you can most likely get into any residency from any school, you're just not guaranteed getting into the residency program that you want (ie, Harvard). Of course, this is highly dependant on your performance in medical school and what you're trying to match into. For example, most schools take a LOT of internal medicine residents (30-50), but neurosurgery programs have 1-2 slots. Obviously the top NS program can be as picky as they want - they probably interview a max of 40 students for those spots. But for IM, they will be interviewing the top candidates from ALL schools, because obviously they're not going to get 400 applicants from only the top schools applying to their program.
At what point does it matter? Your school name will help you if you go to a top 10, top 20 at most. If you're not getting into a top 20, I highly doubt if it matters whether you go to number 45 or number 100. Pick where you'll be happy.

 

[chudog15]

not true. even top 30 schools (mt sinai, mayo, etc) get more recognition than your 100th ranked school.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I would bet that Wayne has matched grads into every available specialty out there. Don't sweat it too much. You just do the best that you can either way.

Exactly. My pretty no-name school matches people into everything, so it's not like you can't do a specialty you'd like because of your school. Not to say there probably aren't advantages associated with going to a big name school.

 

[drizzt3117]

not true. even top 30 schools (mt sinai, mayo, etc) get more recognition than your 100th ranked school.

Those are really bad examples. Mt. Sinai is built into an incredible hospital complex and Mayo is one of the top referral hospitals in the world. Remember that the US News rankings are based on research and specifically NIH funding, which doesn't translate directly to clinical reputation.

The best way to look at it is by admissions stats because it gives you an idea of how competitive a given school is. Case Western, USC, Sinai, and NYU all have similar match lists because their matriculant stats are pretty similar. The same is true for Columbia, Yale, and Cornell which are in a slightly higher tier. You can extrapolate upwards and downwards to compare schools, but ultimately that's a pretty small factor in comparison to how well you do at a given school. I don't think it makes sense to ignore the reputation of programs relative to each other, but IMO you should be more concerned about putting yourself in a position to succeed.

 

[154465]

I wasnt really complaining about Wayne, I was mocking myself as if I have options (or a single option for that matter)

Wayne has an excellent match list that any top school would be proud of, so I am one of the people who could care less about rank. Although Harvard does have a nice ring to it.

 

[chudog15]

those may not be the best examples but find me a top 30 school that isn't reputable. dartmouth? uva? uw? just trying to make a point that even mid level ranked schools carry prestige, not just top 10/20.

 

[drizzt3117]

those may not be the best examples but find me a top 30 school that isn't reputable. dartmouth? uva? uw? just trying to make a point that even mid level ranked schools carry prestige, not just top 10/20.

It's not rocket science that schools with better clinical reputation/prestige will have better match lists. It's just that this doesn't necessarily conform to the US News Rankings. USC is outside the top 25, but its match list is significantly better than some top 25 schools. Will a low ranked state school that emphasizes primary care have as good a clinical reputation as Mayo? Probably not, but then again, you probably knew that going in. It makes more sense to analyze match lists longitudinally and look at admissions stats rather than looking at the US News numbers, though, simply because research rankings don't necessarily have much correlation with the match.

 

[Bartelby]

Just look at the match lists. Look at several years and that will help you avoid selection bias.

Am I the only one that has trouble saying whether a match list is "good" or not? First, I don't really know most of the programs that are being matched into or how competitive/prestigious they are. Second, what am I supposed to be looking for? How many dermatologists they produce? How much they avoid primary care? I have found match lists pretty useless.

 

[drizzt3117]

Am I the only one that has trouble saying whether a match list is "good" or not? First, I don't really know most of the programs that are being matched into or how competitive/prestigious they are. Second, what am I supposed to be looking for? How many dermatologists they produce? How much they avoid primary care? I have found match lists pretty useless.

This is subjective and again, there is selection bias if they aren't analyzed longitudinally, but you can look at the relative competitiveness of each specialty with metrics such as Step 1 scores and match percentage, and look up the relative rankings of each program in each specialty if you want to do a quantitative comparison.

 

[diosa428]

those may not be the best examples but find me a top 30 school that isn't reputable. dartmouth? uva? uw? just trying to make a point that even mid level ranked schools carry prestige, not just top 10/20.

My point wasn't that they're not reputable. My point was that certain residency programs at certain places are "name snobs" and will only interview candidates from certain schools. And those schools are often only interested in students from the "big name" schools - top 10 + a couple of others in the top 20. That is when the name of your medical school actually matters, because that is the only time you will not be interviewed at a certain program no matter how good your stats are. Yes, in the grand scheme of things, coming from school A may give you an edge over someone with the same stats coming from school B, but you will not be completely ruled out as a candidate because you come from school B, unless we're talking about the example above.

 

[DulyNoted]

Because the goals/personalities in each class can differ, I find it easiest to compare the IM matches of people clearly thinking ahead to fellowships/academic medicine. How many people are going to JHU/Duke/BWH/MGH/UCSF can tell you a lot about what residency directors think of that school's graduates. Of course, no comparison of match lists will be able to tell you what each individual is bringing to the table in terms of scores, experiences, research, grades, and awards.

 

[Gut Shot]

This is subjective and again, there is selection bias if they aren't analyzed longitudinally, but you can look at the relative competitiveness of each specialty with metrics such as Step 1 scores and match percentage, and look up the relative rankings of each program in each specialty if you want to do a quantitative comparison.

Sorry, but it is absolutely impossible to perform such a study rigorously with the available data. There are at least two significant sources of bias present, and no amount of hair splitting will adequately compensate. All you're going to end up doing is become crazy over irrelevant statistics.

 

[Gut Shot]

Because the goals/personalities in each class can differ, I find it easiest to compare the IM matches of people clearly thinking ahead to fellowships/academic medicine. How many people are going to JHU/Duke/BWH/MGH/UCSF can tell you a lot about what residency directors think of that school's graduates. Of course, no comparison of match lists will be able to tell you what each individual is bringing to the table in terms of scores, experiences, research, grades, and awards.

Here's the thing. If you compare match lists between South Dakota and Hopkins, guess which is going to be more impressive? But that's generally not the comparison. People resort to these ridiculous analyses when they're comparing two schools that aren't so disparate, and at that point it's just grasping at straws. If a significant reason for selecting one school over another cannot be determined from geography, curriculum and cost, you might as well flip a damned coin.

 

[drizzt3117]

Sorry, but it is absolutely impossible to perform such a study rigorously with the available data. There are at least two significant sources of bias present, and no amount of hair splitting will adequately compensate. All you're going to end up doing is become crazy over irrelevant statistics.

That's true. I'm not advocating that everyone performs rigorous quantitative comparative analysis of match lists, but still feel they will give you some idea of what residencies people are matching into when you compare them over a number of years.

 

[45408]

since we've established that med school reputations do matter, what would be the cutoffs for different "tiers"? specifically where would schools like emory, mt sinai and case be?

This is extremely variable. Each residency program at each medical school for each specialty is directed by a different individual. This person may have had residents from your school that have been excellent or they might have been horrible. Your school might be world-renowned for its research in XYZ (my school apparently has good anesthesiology research), and that residency director thinks that will make you an awesome candidate.

not true. even top 30 schools (mt sinai, mayo, etc) get more recognition than your 100th ranked school.

🙄 maybe with pre-meds, but a residency director is probably better informed on the quality of medical school graduates than the average SDNer with an MSAR and US News sitting in their lap.

those may not be the best examples but find me a top 30 school that isn't reputable. dartmouth? uva? uw? just trying to make a point that even mid level ranked schools carry prestige, not just top 10/20.

Of course they're all reputable. How about you find a school is unable to match its top graduates into competitive specialties? I don't think you'll find one. If you have good board scores and recommendations, and possibly relevant research, you should be able to match into ANY specialty.