DO or EVMS Postbacc?

[Darkskies]

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Hello,
I applied to medical schools this cycle with a 3.42 cGPA and a 32R MCAT with strong ECs. I knew I was a borderline applicant but based on advice I had received if I applied widely and early I should have had a good chance of getting into at least one MD school. I received 3 interview invites from allopathic institutions(out of over 20 supplementals filled). I was rejected from one of them and am still waiting to hear back from the other two. I have been accepted to a DO school but in the meantime have also applied to the three(4 if I apply to Tulane's program) most highly linked SMPs. I found out yesterday that I have been offered a spot at EVMS's Medical Master's program.

Should I choose to go down the postbacc route and forego my DO acceptance? My main concern is regarding the loan situation since I have ~28k from my undergrad and I know that most of these postbaccs and their feeder schools(including EVMS) are either private institutions or force you to pay OOS tuition in EVMS' case and this could(will) balloon into an astronomically high debt burden later down the road. Starting this year the government will also cease subsidizing the interest on education loans..yikes! On the other hand DO schools have expensive COAs as a given so maybe there isn't much of a serious difference save the one extra year for the post-bacc program. I will also be 25 as an MS-1 if I choose to pursue the postbacc route instead of 24 if I elect to become a DO and face a tougher path in terms of securing a good residency. Then again, I am male and don't plan on getting married or having a family anytime soon or during residency so would that make the debt situation less cumbersome and frightening? I know that having an MD from a U.S. institution is the gold standard and will allow me to attain my goals(not sure what specialty I'm aiming for at this point) in the most amenable fashion. Thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

 

[BrandNewDay]

You're in a tough position- none of us can make the choice for you. Personally, I'd go with EVMS, especially if you don't think DO is right for you or if you might pursue a competitive residency. That's just my opinion though- good luck.

 

[drizzt3117]

Evms unless you're dead set on primary care and/or love Michigan/Ohio. I'd never recommend DO unless thr alternative is Carib

 

[Darkskies]

Thanks for the replies so far guys. How difficult is the postbacc at EVMS? The riskiness of the venture unsettles me too. The fact that 91% of last year's class was accepted to an allopathic medical school does cheer me up quite a bit though. So the likely greater than 300k debt burden I'll face by doing the 5 year route shouldn't deter me?

 

[superdoctorman]

If it was me I would go DO over an smp. 3 reasons: you save a year, don't risk under performing in the smp and blowing any chance at med school, and you save a bunch on loans. What DO school? I would suggest looking at their residency match list for last year, a lot of people match into surgery etc

 

[DrMidlife]

I applied to medical schools this cycle with a 3.42 cGPA and a 32R MCAT with strong ECs. I knew I was a borderline applicant but based on advice I had received if I applied widely and early I should have had a good chance of getting into at least one MD school. I received 3 interview invites from allopathic institutions(out of over 20 supplementals filled).

How early was early, and how highly ranked were your 20 schools? Are you in California? Did you apply to all of the public schools in your state?

I was rejected from one of them and am still waiting to hear back from the other two.

It's still January. 7 months to go in this app season.

I found out yesterday that I have been offered a spot at EVMS's Medical Master's program.

Congrats! Finally some love, right?

Should I choose to go down the postbacc route and forego my DO acceptance?

What do you know about DO's? Have you looked into the differences in curriculum, the differences in board exams, the choices for residency? What did you learn from shadowing a DO? Basically, do you know what you don't know about the DO path, and/or are you relying on the advice of others to assess DO as a valid option?

My main concern is regarding the loan situation since I have ~28k from my undergrad and I know that most of these postbaccs and their feeder schools(including EVMS) are either private institutions or force you to pay OOS tuition in EVMS' case and this could(will) balloon into an astronomically high debt burden later down the road.

The SMP year is cheap if you do Tulane ACP, assuming you can finance it (no federal loans for that program). It's $50k-ish at EVMS or Cincinnati. OOS tuition for med school at EVMS is more like $75k, same at Tulane, fairly typical. So your undergrad debt plus SMP plus EVMS med school would be about $350k. I'm speculating that this would put you in the top third of debt loads, meaning it's going to be extremely common.

I suggest that "force you to pay OOS" is a strange attitude, with respect to showing up at a public school to get an education to which neither you nor your parents made any contribution whatsoever. Instate tuition, generally, is a perk for those who have been paying property tax for decades.

Starting this year the government will also cease subsidizing the interest on education loans..yikes!

That's a massive overstatement of the change. Only subsidized Stafford loans have ever had a subsidy. The change affects only $8500 per year of your COA, which is/was the Stafford subsidized limit. You're still accruing interest on the other $40 - $65k you'll need to borrow per year. That yikes has been in play for quite a while.

On the other hand DO schools have expensive COAs as a given so maybe there isn't much of a serious difference save the one extra year for the post-bacc program.

Well, $50k difference. You wouldn't pay for the SMP year if you go DO.

I will also be 25 as an MS-1 if I choose to pursue the postbacc route instead of 24 if I elect to become a DO and face a tougher path in terms of securing a good residency.

OH MY GOD PANIC!!!!

25 vs. 24 is a non-issue. Absolutely irrelevant, unless you want to be one of those folks who has already planned out your investment portfolio around having a specific number of working years prior to a retirement that starts at 43 with a specific annuity profile yawn.

The DO residency path issues are complicated if you're going for a competitive specialty and/or a location where DOs are less established. DO residency issues are complicated by a lack of preparation more than a lack of opportunity, imho.

Then again, I am male and don't plan on getting married or having a family anytime soon or during residency so would that make the debt situation less cumbersome and frightening?

Watch out for biology, my friend. I hope, for the sake of your happiness, that you meet the girl of your dreams, soon, and that she's employable.

I'd never recommend DO unless thr alternative is Carib

I agree with this.

How difficult is the postbacc at EVMS?

Really difficult. So is med school. Your GPA & MCAT tell me that if you work hard you'll be fine. If you get distracted during the SMP, or you piss off the faculty by being obnoxious or entitled, then you have a problem.

The riskiness of the venture unsettles me too. The fact that 91% of last year's class was accepted to an allopathic medical school does cheer me up quite a bit though.

Risk is inherent in any attempt at medical school. I am amazed by the frequency with which people expect a guarantee. No guarantees, ever.

So the likely greater than 300k debt burden I'll face by doing the 5 year route shouldn't deter me?

It should absolutely freak you out. If you choose to let it deter you, that would be a sign of mental health. You are young enough, and your stats are good enough, that the menu of choices for going to med school is less limited than you're making it sound.

In your shoes, I would put aside fears of things taking too long, and focus on getting into a public MD school. Unless you're in California, your stats should be close enough. If you get a public school acceptance this year, fabulous. If you don't, skip the app cycle that starts June 2012, and start (now) on producing substantial new application assets for the June 2013 cycle. The menu of assets includes: more A's in upper div science, a new strong LOR, a leadership role (with actual responsibility) in a community activity, completely rewritten essays, maybe a hired consultant. And/or an SMP during 2012-2013 that doesn't all-but-require you to stay and pay OOS.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Darkskies]

Thanks again for the new replies, especially to you Dr. Midlife. I know quite a bit about the osteopathic profession, and med school/residencies in general due to my intense addiction to SDN for the past year. I know that DOs essentially have the option to specialize in any field of their choosing but that this is more complicated and difficult to do if your aim is a competitive specialty or a competitive residency within a specialty that is easier to obtain. Also, I understand that many DO schools have poor rotation sites and that DO residencies(though over half of DOs obtain ACGME residency spots) are generally of lower quality and tend to be located in community sites in the middle of nowhere. For me, my reservations about following through with the DO route include the fact that every year residency matches become more difficult and that with the increase in class sizes and the opening of new DO/MD schools while residency positions remain constant does not bode well for future DOs. Also, I am quite undecided as to what specialty I am looking to pursue(doubt it will be something surgical).

I am a resident of NY state and have applied to 8 NY state MD schools excluding Columbia, NYU, Albert Einstein, and Cornell. The only NY state MD school I was granted an interview at was Hofstra and they interview around 600 students for a class size of 60. I used these forums as a resource and I would say that I made excellent choices(given my situation) of the 26 MD schools I applied to except for 2 which I hadn't realized were very in-state discriminatory. My undergraduate degree is also from a private university in the top 40 in terms of rankings. Like I mentioned before, I have strong ECs as well including nearly 3 years of hospital volunteering, some tutoring, advanced Spanish language knowledge, nearly 100 hours of physician shadowing, some research, 1-2 years of a leadership position,etc. I had my application reviewed by the one MD school I was rejected from post-interview and they told me directly that my personal statement and ECs were strong.

I am most assuredly not entitled(I hope I didn't give that impression) and would be absolutely stoked if I were granted an acceptance to an MD school. That being said, I am resolute in not planning to wait out another cycle(unless I'm doing the SMP year at a highly linked school), mainly because I want to get started on my career path, don't think I can improve my application much further and am not particularly enjoying my soon to be 2 years out of school.

Dr. Midlife, when you state that my debt will be around 350k is that including the cost of attendance or just the tuition for these schools? If it's just the tuition then wouldn't my total debt burden be much higher than 350k? If so, would that still be manageable for me in the long run? Thank you for such a detailed reply! Based on my reading of it, you wouldn't quite recommend that I attend the postbacc at EVMS due to the high tuition I'll have to take on. However, what SMP would you recommend then? Then again, if I do well at EVMS's postbacc I might be able to garner an acceptance at a NY state public school, corrrect? I've applied to Cincinatti's and Temple's SMPs as well.

I have a waitlist letter from a DO school(I was floored that I was waitlisted at UMDNJ School of Osteopathic Medicine and was informed that even my interview went well but that this year was particularly competitive and that the admissions committee did not want to fill up their class of 130 by December) but I was waiting to hear back from Drexel and use their waitlist letter(if I get waitlisted and not accepted/rejected) for my application to Tulane's ACP. Should I just go ahead and use the waitlist letter from UMDNJSOM in my application to Tulane's ACP or wait and see for Drexel's(since it's an MD)?

I'm really in a bind here and appreciate everyone's continuing advice! Like I've already stated, my main concern is the potential debt burden and worrying over how to pay it off. Thanks again!

EDIT: Regarding my flippant use of the phrase 'forcing you to pay OOS tuition' I apologize if I gave off the impression that this is unfair as it makes complete sense for the reasons expounded by Dr. Midlife. However, I feel that med school tuition itself is ridiculously high and I wish someone would explain this concept of in-state tuition and in-state preference to the schools in NY since most(even public schools) show little preference to NY state residents and most OOSers can obtain in-state tuition after the first year or so of living here.

 

[DrMidlife]

Dr. Midlife, when you state that my debt will be around 350k is that including the cost of attendance or just the tuition for these schools?

That's COA. Note: COA means living cheap: no car payment, no credit card bills.

If so, would that still be manageable for me in the long run?

$350k is plenty unmanageable, which I why I suggested an alternative:

In your shoes, I would put aside fears of things taking too long, and focus on getting into a public MD school. Unless you're in California, your stats should be close enough. If you get a public school acceptance this year, fabulous. If you don't, skip the app cycle that starts June 2012, and start (now) on producing substantial new application assets for the June 2013 cycle. The menu of assets includes: more A's in upper div science, a new strong LOR, a leadership role (with actual responsibility) in a community activity, completely rewritten essays, maybe a hired consultant. And/or an SMP during 2012-2013 that doesn't all-but-require you to stay and pay OOS.

Should I just go ahead and use the waitlist letter from UMDNJSOM in my application to Tulane's ACP

Yes. I got accepted in Tulane ACP with a LECOM-Bradenton waitlist letter. That was 3 years ago, but I doubt they changed the policy.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Darkskies]

Out of the suggestions you provided, the only viable option that I see is completing an "SMP that doesn't all but require me to stay and pay OOS". I don't think I can improve my application much further otherwise since both my personal statement and my ECs are strong. I've already taken too many science classes to allow my GPA to change much with added As in upper division courses. What SMP wouldn't require me to stay and pay OOS or private school tuition and still provide me with a very high chance of med school acceptance? Dr. Midlife, if you were in my situation would you choose to accept and complete the EVMS Med Master's program or run with the DO acceptance?Thanks!

 

[Agtongue]

Out of the suggestions you provided, the only viable option that I see is completing an "SMP that doesn't all but require me to stay and pay OOS". I don't think I can improve my application much further otherwise since both my personal statement and my ECs are strong. I've already taken too many science classes to allow my GPA to change much with added As in upper division courses. What SMP wouldn't require me to stay and pay OOS or private school tuition and still provide me with a very high chance of med school acceptance? Dr. Midlife, if you were in my situation would you choose to accept and complete the EVMS Med Master's program or run with the DO acceptance?Thanks!

University of Cincinnati SMP gives you in state tuition, and access to the other public schools in OH. Though I'm not sure if you have access to those schools in the same year as you are completing the master's. I've been needing to find that out myself.

 

[Darkskies]

OOS cost of attendance for the med master's program is about 57k. So 4 years of the med school plus the postbacc program's COA would amount to a debt of 357k. Tacking on my undergrad debt of about 30k would equal 387k, wouldn't it?

 

[johnnyscans]

I know that this post is going to be 100% unhelpful, but god damn man you've got a tough choice.

I hope that someone more knowledgeable than myself can help you break it down and make the right decision.

 

[DrMidlife]

I gave up a DO acceptance to do EVMS to be a US MD. I was halfway through six months of chemotherapy when I made this decision - that's a free pass to throw a hail mary. I am your parents' age. I left a six figure career, so I have a plan B for financial meltdown. I don't have the years it would take me to get into my state school. I did very thorough research into what being a DO would mean for me and it did not justify the extreme sacrifices I'm making to change careers into medicine.

If you don't want to be a DO, you don't have to. If you don't want to take on $350k+ in student debt, you don't have to. If you don't want to change your state of residence, you don't have to. You also don't have to go to med school at all.

Nor do you have to make this decision this very second. Pay the damn deposit for the EVMS med masters and get over it - it's what, $100? $200? You have months to figure this out. Tulane ACP apps aren't even being reviewed yet.

Best of luck to you.

 

[DrMidlife]

I hope that someone more knowledgeable than myself can help you break it down and make the right decision.

I broke it down to death in post #6. Info is abundant; now it's time for backbone.

 

[johnnyscans]

I gave up a DO acceptance to do EVMS to be a US MD. I was halfway through six months of chemotherapy when I made this decision - that's a free pass to throw a hail mary. I am your parents' age. I left a six figure career, so I have a plan B for financial meltdown. I don't have the years it would take me to get into my state school. I did very thorough research into what being a DO would mean for me and it did not justify the extreme sacrifices I'm making to change careers into medicine.

If you don't want to be a DO, you don't have to. If you don't want to take on $350k+ in student debt, you don't have to. If you don't want to change your state of residence, you don't have to. You also don't have to go to med school at all.

Nor do you have to make this decision this very second. Pay the damn deposit for the EVMS med masters and get over it - it's what, $100? $200? You have months to figure this out. Tulane ACP apps aren't even being reviewed yet.

Best of luck to you.

And this is why I won't stop until I have a US MD acceptance in my hands.

 

[Darkskies]

I gave up a DO acceptance to do EVMS to be a US MD. I was halfway through six months of chemotherapy when I made this decision - that's a free pass to throw a hail mary. I am your parents' age. I left a six figure career, so I have a plan B for financial meltdown. I don't have the years it would take me to get into my state school. I did very thorough research into what being a DO would mean for me and it did not justify the extreme sacrifices I'm making to change careers into medicine.

If you don't want to be a DO, you don't have to. If you don't want to take on $350k+ in student debt, you don't have to. If you don't want to change your state of residence, you don't have to. You also don't have to go to med school at all.

Nor do you have to make this decision this very second. Pay the damn deposit for the EVMS med masters and get over it - it's what, $100? $200? You have months to figure this out. Tulane ACP apps aren't even being reviewed yet.

Best of luck to you.

I went ahead and put down the $300 deposit for EMVS. I'm truly sorry I didn't realize that my concerns sounded so frivolous and my tone so petulant, whiny, and entitled compared to what you've been through to achieve your goals.

Nevertheless I still think my concerns are valid for me..I don't feel that I would be satisfied as a DO. Many in one of the Resident forums have told me to matriculate at one of the DO schools I've been accepted to. I've seriously never been at such a loss in making a decision!

 

[AH1050]

any update on how it all worked out for you? debating a similar decision now

 

[DrMidlife]

2012 experiences are not relevant because the EVMS programs have completely changed. Read hard, make sure you know what you'd be signing up for with either choice.