DO or MD, is there a diff in rad onc or radiology?

[Pewl]

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I know this question is redundant to you guys but, I've been bouncing around in forums looking for different input:

I'd like to get an idea of how many DO's go into Diagonostic Radiology and Radiation Oncology? I got my graduate degree at UCLA in Biomedical Physics and my area of specialty right now is pretty much in radiation oncology. I understand that both are a highly competitive field, and if going to a DO school will seriously hurt my chances, I was thinking of just going the MD route.

What do you guys think?

 

[fedor]

I know this question is redundant to you guys but, I've been bouncing around in forums looking for different input:

I'd like to get an idea of how many DO's go into Diagonostic Radiology and Radiation Oncology? I got my graduate degree at UCLA in Biomedical Physics and my area of specialty right now is pretty much in radiation oncology. I understand that both are a highly competitive field, and if going to a DO school will seriously hurt my chances, I was thinking of just going the MD route.

What do you guys think?

If you're still choosing between applying to DO and MD programs, I recommend going the MD route. Radiology and Rad-Onc are difficult enough to match without worrying about the extra hurdles a DO will have to go through.

 

[tigershark]

With radiology you have a shot if you are a superstar....as a DO you pretty much have no chance at Rad-Onc.

 

[Vince]

I agree with above....possible but really really tough as a DO for Rads....and I would be really really really really really impressed if you pulled it off for Rad Onc.

I posted a longer reply to your question in the osteopathic forum where I originally found it.

 

[kcumbDO]

get ready to be realy realy realy realy suprised because there is a DO at Fox Chase Cancer Center for Rad Onc and he is from my school. Degrees don't matter its how you do on boards, rotations, preclincal grades, and recs.

 

[LAZYGUY]

I agree

get ready to be realy realy realy realy suprised because there is a DO at Fox Chase Cancer Center for Rad Onc and he is from my school. Degrees don't matter its how you do on boards, rotations, preclincal grades, and recs.

 

[Vince]

I'm telling you...I've been through the application process....Degrees DO matter to some programs...and if you don't think so you are deluding yourself. Strong boards, LOR's, and research really really make a difference, but there are some PD's that are skeptical of DOs. You have been forewarned.

As for the DO who got the Rad Onc slot(s)...great...that's fabulous...only helps people open their eyes....

I just think people should be aware of what they are up against....it's nice to know ahead of time so you can prepare.

Extremely tough road for ACGME Rads as a DO, and even tougher for Rad Onc.....Take it or leave it...

 

[OhhMindy!]

I'm telling you...I've been through the application process....Degrees DO matter to some programs...and if you don't think so you are deluding yourself. Strong boards, LOR's, and research really really make a difference, but there are some PD's that are skeptical of DOs. You have been forewarned.

As for the DO who got the Rad Onc slot(s)...great...that's fabulous...only helps people open their eyes....

I just think people should be aware of what they are up against....it's nice to know ahead of time so you can prepare.

Extremely tough road for ACGME Rads as a DO, and even tougher for Rad Onc.....Take it or leave it...

Vince, you're fighting an uphill battle. Whenever there's a question of how much a DO degree hurts for competitive residencies, that's the cue for every DO to post that one in a million DO story about how their Uncle Jed, D.O. matched rad-onc.

 

[khybs]

I'm telling you...I've been through the application process....Degrees DO matter to some programs...and if you don't think so you are deluding yourself. Strong boards, LOR's, and research really really make a difference, but there are some PD's that are skeptical of DOs. You have been forewarned.

As for the DO who got the Rad Onc slot(s)...great...that's fabulous...only helps people open their eyes....

I just think people should be aware of what they are up against....it's nice to know ahead of time so you can prepare.

Extremely tough road for ACGME Rads as a DO, and even tougher for Rad Onc.....Take it or leave it...

So you heard the one about Uncle Jed, D.O. already... Well how come you guys forget the major players in Rad Onc? Has anyone done their research. I guess not.... prominent DO's (yes, bigger than Uncle Jed):

Paul Wallner, DO - You know what he did? Gold medal at Astro last year, I met the guy, really nice guy. Anyone who knows anything about Astro is that is the highest distinction you can get.

Peter Grimm, DO - trained at UCLA, runs seattle prostate institute

Tom Merchant, DO (went to my school, CCOM), trained at Memorial Slone Kettering - Great guy! Over at St. Judes now.

the list goes on and on.

Don't buy into the propaganda, it's all BS. "Be forewarned" my tuckus... If you got the research and the scores, you will get interviews, DO or MD. Remember, most PD's are also foreign trained anyway. Crap like this is what perpetuates the bias. I'm a DO, now yes I didn't match last year and yes there are some program that do bias and yes it is harder for us but I did get seven interviews as a DO (2 in Cali, notoriously hard to get) and that is something you cannot refute... especially since I know MD's who got fewer interviews than that...

As for Rads, we have osteopathic spots so don't worry about that... enough with the negativism, it's about time you accepted DO's as well Vince and Mindy, most other people have...

 

[Molly Maquire]

Like Vince, I am a DO who went through the allopathic radiology match this year. I also agree with his assesment. It is much more difficult as a DO. No one is saying it is impossible. But there is no question in my mind-none-that I was not offered the same caliber of interviews as an MD with an otherwise identical application.

Despite strong grades and board scores, I was interviewing at programs on probation, programs in undesirable areas, programs that were on the brink of financial ruin, programs that had recently lost large numbers of faculty, etc.

How do I know that it was because of my being a DO and not some other glaring flaw in my application? Because they told me. A PD told me directly, "Oh, we're not interviewing DOs this year" and a secretary at another program told me not to bother, that "this program don't take DOs". Another PD told me, "to interview here as a DO, you need superior credentials."

The fact remains that where you went to medical school is a factor PDs look at, and most program directors consider DO schools to be the bottom of the barrel. And the more competitive the field, the more this comes into play.

NOW THE GOOD NEWS

I was ultimately successful in matching to a university program in a DO-friendly part of the country (not where I wanted to live--but I'll take it). I am also aware that there are DOs currently practicing in every medical specialty, including ortho, derm, plastics, and rad onc.

Just don't tell me that the DO degree is not a hurdle to be overcome if one desires a competitive specialty or a competitive program in an average specialty. As Vince said, this is just delusional.

 

[Testudo]

I think it would help Pewl more to expand on the differences between DO and MD degrees as well as looking at the match. Pewl wanted to know what degree would be most competative.

To be honest if you want to know which Degree is most competative, from what I have seen, it is MD/PhD's. At top program, it was not exclusively Md/PhD's, but they certainly dominated the landscape, and certainly some programs appear biased for and against MD/PhD's but general they get choice spots ( 2 at hopkins from Hopkins, 1 at UNC, 3 at Vanderbilt, at least 1 at UCLA, at least 1 at Stanford, I think 4? at Harvard and 4? at Anderson). I believe the PhD hold true for DO's as well, infact isn't the DO who matched at Fox Chase a PhD as well?

Here are the numbers from last year:

Radiation Oncology Programs: 69
Positions Offered: 128
Total Applicants: 225
Percentage of US Seniors in Applicant Pool: 72%
Proportion of US Seniors in those who Matched: 87%
2 Unfilled Positions

Keep in mind, here, as Stephew pointed out "US senior" only considers allopathic 4th years, so there are no DO, FMG, or people who took time off included. Therefore these numbers suggest to me, about 17 spots out of the 128 were filled by FMG, DO, people who took time off. Of note a German FMG, matched at MSK, and as noted before a DO matched at Fox Chase and presumably there are more in that 17.

So if I was on the outside and I wanted to do whatever I could to get in, I'd get a MD/PhD. However, really allopathic and osteopathic schools aren't the same and I think you should get better aquainted with the philosophies of the two and see what you like better, certainly both can match, but keep in mind that 87% of spots are taken by 4th year MD candidates, not fair but sadly the truth.

Fact is, there are many DO's and FMG's at the program I am at and they are excellent clinicians, who are very well trained, but they often don't get a fair shake.

Hope this helps you decide, just my observations.

 

[Docxter]

I'm telling you...I've been through the application process....Degrees DO matter to some programs...and if you don't think so you are deluding yourself. Strong boards, LOR's, and research really really make a difference, but there are some PD's that are skeptical of DOs. You have been forewarned.

As for the DO who got the Rad Onc slot(s)...great...that's fabulous...only helps people open their eyes....

I just think people should be aware of what they are up against....it's nice to know ahead of time so you can prepare.

Extremely tough road for ACGME Rads as a DO, and even tougher for Rad Onc.....Take it or leave it...

Exactly. The fact that people "know of a DO that matched at a competitive residency X", just proves the fact that they are at a major disadvantage. These exceptions just prove the rule.

MD will put you at a distinct advantage over DOs, all other things being equal. Just like the IMGs being at a distinct disadvantage. In my residency program, they don't even consider DOs. We have had very few that came for a fellowship, but no DO even gets an interview for residency.

If you're trying to decide between MD and DO for these specialties, it's a complete no brainer. Go for the MD.

 

[OhhMindy!]

 

[Pewl]

Wow, I think I started a ****storm here.

Tetsudo, I'm fully aware of the differences between the DO and MD's. I was just asking about the biases and difficulties DO face in radiology and radiation oncology. The director of UCLA's rad onc that I work under is an MD/Phd indeed. I do plan to get an MD at this point if I get in. I have 5 interviews lined up at the moment and I just need one of them =D

Additionally, I'm hoping my MS in Biomedical Physics will help too. I pretty much work in rad onc and veterinary rad onc here at ucla and my research has been in the area of IGRT and stereotactic radiosurgery. I'm familiar with all the treatment planning systems and I'm hoping this'll be a big asset to me later on.

It's unfortunate that DO's face this kind of bias. If anything it's because their requirements are so much lower than MD programs. It's kind of like a gentlemen's club. Hopefully one day it'll all be integrated. Heh

 

[f_w]

Radonc seems to have a lot of people with physics and engineering undergrad degrees. Especially with your prior involvement in the field and if you do well on the boards during medschool, you should have a good shot to get into a radonc program.

Getting into medschool will certainly be the biggest hurdle in your pursuits. Try to turn out your humanistic side during the interviews (you want to reduce suffering , you are not satisfied with working at the pure research end of things, have met very impressive patients yadayadayada. Try not to come accross as a pure techno-geek who just wants to get into different position in the food chain. Medschool admission committees are full of underemployed primary care docs who think that anyone who doesn't want to become a rural or inner-city family practicioner should go to the back of the line.)

And yes, there is a difference between MD and DO in your likelihood of getting a radiology or rad-onc residency interview. This doesn't reflect the abilities or qualifications of either group (I have worked with both for years), it reflects the biases of program directors and GME committees. Yes, there are DOs in either specialty, but given the option the MD route has more chances for success.

 

[(nicedream)]

get ready to be realy realy realy realy suprised because there is a DO at Fox Chase Cancer Center for Rad Onc and he is from my school. Degrees don't matter its how you do on boards, rotations, preclincal grades, and recs.

C'mon man...
From the Sep. 7, 2005 issue of JAMA:
526 residents in rad onc, 8 osteopathic. That's an average of 2 per year. 👎

Better in rads. 4160 residents, 139 osteopathic. Average of 28 per year. Plus the 10 or so AOA programs (another 20 or so residents).

 

[f_w]

> From the Sep. 7, 2005 issue of JAMA:
> 526 residents in rad onc, 8 osteopathic. That's an average of 2 per year.

Wow, a real source. And it looks like all 8 of them have been mentioned in this thread by name.

 

[(nicedream)]

> From the Sep. 7, 2005 issue of JAMA:
> 526 residents in rad onc, 8 osteopathic. That's an average of 2 per year.

Wow, a real source. And it looks like all 8 of them have been mentioned in this thread by name.

Well, to be fair, that's 8 current residents - the other poster was talking about current practicing physicians. Regardless, obviously VERY few DO rad onc's.

 

[tigershark]

C'mon man...
From the Sep. 7, 2005 issue of JAMA:
526 residents in rad onc, 8 osteopathic. That's an average of 2 per year. 👎

Better in rads. 4160 residents, 139 osteopathic. Average of 28 per year. Plus the 10 or so AOA programs (another 20 or so residents).

kyhbys got owned

 

[Vince]

... enough with the negativism, it's about time you accepted DO's as well Vince and Mindy, most other people have...

WHAT!?! Are you even reading this thread? 😕

I AM A D.O.!

 

[Pewl]

HAHA

Allow me to try to summarize this whole thread:

Rad Onc = few DO's, unfortunately, but if you fight tooth and nail anything is possible

Me = Trying to get into and MD program to avoid hurdles, hoping my biomedical physics MS will give me an extra skill point towards rad onc

Outlook: Your med school experience is what you make of it, and the first step is getting in somewhere, ANYwhere!

🙂

 

[fedor]

What is most entertaining about this whole mess of a thread is that by the time some of you finish residency (2 yrs to apply to med school, 4 years med school, 5 years residency), the job market for rad-onc/rads may be completely different than it is now.

Who knows, by then Rheum and Endocrinology may be the hot fields (ie, reimbursements way up! lifestyle can't be beat) and you'll have pre-meds professing their undying love for the field from freshman year on.

About the whole DO/MD issue. This shouldn't be an issue at all. It's possible to match into Rad-Onc/Rads/NS from DO but it will be harder than if you're an MD. The same thing about MD's from unranked schools compared to MD's coming from JHU. Even the below average students from JHU, Harvard, and Penn still match into pretty impressive programs. Basically, go to the best school you can get into and that you can afford.

 

[(nicedream)]

Who knows, by then Rheum and Endocrinology may be the hot fields (ie, reimbursements way up! lifestyle can't be beat) and you'll have pre-meds professing their undying love for the field from freshman year on.

How hard is it for DOs to get into rheum or endo programs?
😉

 

[FowlersGap]

just do the best you can do right now; i went to ucla too and now i'm a second year at COMP;

who knows, in the future you may change your mind and not want to do rad/onc any more

one guy from our school did match at usc for radiology last year, so if you work hard and do well on rotations, you should be alright

HAHA

Allow me to try to summarize this whole thread:

Rad Onc = few DO's, unfortunately, but if you fight tooth and nail anything is possible

Me = Trying to get into and MD program to avoid hurdles, hoping my biomedical physics MS will give me an extra skill point towards rad onc

Outlook: Your med school experience is what you make of it, and the first step is getting in somewhere, ANYwhere!

🙂