DO or MD. Suggestions???

[Dr_Jay_wannabe]

Hi,

I'm only a freshman in college, but I'm really trying to get an early start on things because I know I want to be a doctor. It has always been my dream to be able to heal people. However, I have a few questions that maybe you guys could help me with.

First off, is an Osteopathic medical education truely more holistic than an allopathic one? I believe in the Osteopathic principals, but from what I hear they are very seldom utilized and enforced in the education process.

Second, what can I do as an undergrad to set me apart from the rest? How can I be competitive? I live in South Dakota and where I'm from there aren't very many volunteer opportunities.

Third, I've shadowed 5 D.O.s, but beings I'm from South Dakota, I've only seen 2 of them use OMM in their practice, and even those two doctors told me they don't use it very much because they just don't have time. Is it like this everywhere?

I guess I'm posting this because I am torn. I can either get an Osteopathic education and hope that I will be taught in a holistic manner. Or, I can shoot for an allopathic program that teaches alternative medicine techniques, or recieve GME in acupuncture and holism (which I would do even if I did go the DO route).

I may be taking on too many challenges, but I think it is vital for physicians to utilize complementary and alternative modalities such as nutrition, herbs and especially acupuncture. I know it's not conventional, but the stuff works, and it's a lot less invasive than handeling minor problems with pharmaceuticals and surgery.

I'm not willing to go strickly complementary and alternative. I'd rather be an integrative physician, because I know convential medicine saves lives. But convential medicine severely lacks in cases of chronic illnesses.

Well, let me know if you have any suggestions. DO or MD?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Amy B]

Hi,

DO or MD, they are both doctors. I would suggest reading books about the DO career. A link you need to read through is
http://www.aacom.org/data/cib/index.html

This link takes a bit longer to load.
http://archfami.ama-assn.org/cgi/co...red_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&journalcode=archfami

It is true that the DO mentality does stress looking for other solutions first rather than rushing to drugs. They may find out that is the only solution, but they do look to see if there is an alternative. This said, not all DOs do that. DOs are becoming more and more like MDs. It is becoming very hard to tell the difference.

I applied to both DO and MD, have acceptances to both, have have so far only paid my deposit to a DO school which I really love. I intend on becoming a rural family care physician and felt the DO courses and rotations at the school would enhance my goal. Although you can specialize with a DO degree, alot of DOs choose family practice. However there are also many who do specialize. A DO can apply for either a DO residency or an MD residency. An MD can only apply for a MD residency.

As to what you need to do as an undergrad. You really, really need clinical experiences, either volunteer or paid. Check out your local EMT basic program, area hospital volunteer program, any free health clinic. Non-clinic - meals on wheels, soup kitchen, homeless shelters, reading tutor for middle and high school students, etc.

Maintain great grades and when the time comes, study your butt off form the MCAT. Good luck

 

[skypilot]

Originally posted by Dr_Jay_wannabe

First off, is an Osteopathic medical education truely more holistic than an allopathic one? I believe in the Osteopathic principals, but from what I hear they are very seldom utilized and enforced in the education process.

My opinion on this one is that there is so much medicine to learn in the two years that you are studying for the boards that there is not too much time to make the learning "holistic."

Over 65% of D.O.s end up in allopathic residencies. If you are interested in learning OMM, D.O. is a great option but the two separate tracks have basically converged.

No matter what pathway you choose, some of your colleagues will be from the other track. As a freshman there is no reason to worry about it at this point.

 

[TexPre-Med]

While I am impressed with your enthusiasm, it doesn't really make a big difference as to whether you chose osteopathic or allopathic medicine. Specialties are easier to obtain in an allopathic route though. However what surprises me is that you want to be an accupucturist and naturalist as well. While most doctors will say they include them as positive aspects of healthcare out of kindness, many truthfully regard these other fields as a crock of ****. Herbs have been replaced by drugs for a reason, and accupuncture does not facilitate long-term solutions. It only temporarily alleviates tension/pain. If it interests you, have fun, but I think you will find it a waste of time to acquire such knowledge along with uneconomical. I'm sure others feel different. This is solely my opinion.

 

[Buster Douglas]

Originally posted by TexPre-Med
Herbs have been replaced by drugs for a reason, and accupuncture does not facilitate long-term solutions. It only temporarily alleviates tension/pain.

All forms of medicine "only temporarily alleviate pain tension/pain" until we ultimately die.
Most drugs are designed from herb/plant extracts.

 

[idq1i]

How about ND? Doctor of quacke...... I mean natureopathy.

(No, I'm not kidding. There really are ND schools)

 

[skypilot]

If a herb such as St Johns Wort or pain treatments such as Accupuncture can be proven to be effective through controlled clinical studies then they should be accepted by MDs or DOs.

Quality of life is an important goal of medicine. So if an alternative treatment can provide relief there is a place for it in medicine.

I think the problem comes when you try to figure out how to make money off the treatment if it doesn't involve the patient taking a pill manufactured by a drug company.

 

[DD214_DOC]

NDs will be where MDs and DOs are now in 10-15 years, if not sooner. Mark my words -- the public is fed up with the medical imperialism of the allopathic tradition. Outrageous medical costs only exacerbate the situation.

 

[robotdancing]

Originally posted by JKDMed
NDs will be where MDs and DOs are now in 10-15 years, if not sooner. Mark my words -- the public is fed up with the medical imperialism of the allopathic tradition. Outrageous medical costs only exacerbate the situation.

wanna put $100 on it? 😱

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Originally posted by JKDMed
NDs will be where MDs and DOs are now in 10-15 years, if not sooner. Mark my words -- the public is fed up with the medical imperialism of the allopathic tradition. Outrageous medical costs only exacerbate the situation.

You have the average GPA for natureopathy school to get an ND degree?

 

[Dr_Jay_wannabe]

I firmly believe that MDs and DOs need to practice INTEGRATIVE medicine. What I mean is that they should definately consider complementary and alternative treatments when necessary.

I am a strong believer in CAM, but I don't believe NDs will replace MDs and DOs because their pracitices arent as secure. Many are very flaky and have no scientific basis (even if they do graduate from a 4-year ND school). I have seriously considered going to an ND school, but I have since realized that it serves as a good COMPLEMENT to medicine in America.

I fear NDs becoming fully licensed because too many are fakes who have recieved mail-order certificates that the average Adult cannot identify. THe even recieve an ND degree, but it never came from an accredited institution. How can we regulate something like that?

I strongly feel the need in the US for complementary and alternative treatments, but it must come from WELL educated, fully licensed physician. That way patients can be sure they aren't just being taken to the cleaners.

 

[Buster Douglas]

Originally posted by JKDMed
NDs will be where MDs and DOs are now in 10-15 years, if not sooner. Mark my words -- the public is fed up with the medical imperialism of the allopathic tradition. Outrageous medical costs only exacerbate the situation.

I'm sorry, dude, but theoretical medicine will never replace scientific medicine... especially in the western world.

As for St Johns Wort and other alternative forms of medication, no doctor should ever consider the "acquiring of such knowledge as a waste of time along with uneconomical." People die prematurely everyday from both FDA-approved prescribed medications and GNC-sold herbal supplements. It's our job to be aware of the effects of what our patients are popping into their bodies every morning.

 

[JohnHolmes]

The focus is kindof different.

DOs do have a focus on skeletal muscle manipulation. I think the science that was done on this that originated in the 19th century is kindof sketchy, but ... different strokes for different folks, right?

DOs have traditionally looked at family medicine more (v important) and treating the patient as a person first. These are two huge pluses that have become integrated much more heaviloy into allopathic medicine in the past years. I think the gap is closing as many people have already rightly stated.

Allopathic schools tend to be more prestigous and make it a bit easier to specialize and obtain competitive residencies--all other things being equal.

Also, allopathic schools tend to be grounded very firmly in basic science. They tend to be very research focused (as more osteopaths are becoming--the schools that is) and the NIH machinery drives much of the financial decisions.

They have pluses and minuses--both schools. For my money, I'd go allopathic if you are planning on specializing or working in a competitive market. If you are more of a "holistic" type of guy and are bout it bout it osteopathic schools-- go that route. Six one way, half a dozen the other, right?

coops

 

[Shinken]

Originally posted by Cooper_Wriston
DOs do have a focus on skeletal muscle manipulation. I think the science that was done on this that originated in the 19th century is kindof sketchy, but ... different strokes for different folks, right?

Why do people keep judging osteopathic medicine in the 19th century by today's standards? Do you think that allopathic medicine in the 19th century was not sketchy?

Let's see...mercury-based drugs, arsenic, vomiting, bleeding, blistering...sounds pretty sketchy to me.

Most people forget that 100 years ago, allopathic medicine was so sketchy, quacky and deadly that most people that went to see their doctors with a simple ailment would die. It's no wonder that so many people wanted to find something better. A. T. Still created a wonderful medical system that today has become a complete system of health care delivery. Allopathic and osteopathic medicine have essentially the same evolution: both started out as sketchy medical practices, evolved through time, and now enjoy the status of complete medical disciplines.

 

[Rendar5]

You should take a look at the end of the "Worried" topic by Jay Miranti. Someone posted a response she got from a head of raidology DO about what he thinks about the whole MD vs. DO deal. I thought it was rather informative.

If you want to learn OMM, there are courses available to MDs too after they graduate. And I know that some schools do take into account things like herbs and acupuncture and offer courses in those (from a scientific perspective, I would hope).

 

[omarsaleh66]

u could do family practice via DO or MD route and then do a fellowship in alternative medicine

 

[Amy B]

Originally posted by Rendar5
You should take a look at the end of the "Worried" topic by Jay Miranti. Someone posted a response she got from a head of raidology DO about what he thinks about the whole MD vs. DO deal. I thought it was rather informative.

If you want to learn OMM, there are courses available to MDs too after they graduate. And I know that some schools do take into account things like herbs and acupuncture and offer courses in those (from a scientific perspective, I would hope).

Here is the letter Rendar5 is referring to in case you missed it.
""""Greetings Dr. Orons,

I am a member of SDN, a student doctor forum on the Internet. I have been accepted to Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine and will start there this fall. We are all having a debate about whether or not DOs are thought to be inferior to MDs out in the working world of health care. A poster stumbled onto the UPMC web site and saw that you are the director of the Radiology Residency program at a MD medical school location. This is an ongoing debate at SDN and was wondering if you would be willing to give us some imput about how you feel?

My questions to you if you wouldn't mind answering is do you feel you have a stigma attached to yourself for being an DO verses an MD? And if you had it to do over, would you still have chosen to become a DO?

Thank you for your help,

Amy B


From: "Orons, Phillip" <[email protected]> Add to Address Book
To: "'[email protected]
Subject: RE: A question from a student
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 21:13:08 -0500
Dear Amy,

This is an interesting debate, and one which has been ongoing since A.T. Still was making his rounds in Missouri in the late 1800s. I graduated from PCOM in 1986 and remember hearing something during my first year about a supposed study that was performed by the ACGME or some other allopathic body looking at the average credentials of osteopathic first year medical students vs. those of first year allopathic students. Apparently, the purpose of the study was to determine if there was a difference between M.D. and D.O. students academically. Supposedly, the study found that there was no statistically significant difference between the two groups with respect to MCAT scores, grades, etc, but to my knowledge, the study was never published. My father is a D.O. and I became an osteopathic physician because I admired the way my father practiced medicine. I

was really not aware of the differences between the way M.D.s and D.O.s were regarded, or the issues D.O.s faced once they reached the level of postgraduate training and clinical practice. I didn't apply to any allopathic schools. I believed then, and I believe now, there is no meaningful difference between the quality of education received by D.O.s and M.D.s at the medical school level. The curricula, resources, and faculty are very similar - sometimes even identical and shared between schools. However, I believe that in postgraduate training, and especially when it comes to subspecialty fields, there may be enormous differences in the opportunities available to D.O.s.

To say that D.O.s are believed inferior to M.D.s in the working world of health care is to paint with a very broad brush to say the least. However, when individuals are being considered for competitive postgraduate training opportunities at academic allopathic institutions, D.O.s are definitely at a disadvantage. There are some individuals in the academic allopathic world (and probably more than a few in osteopathic medicine as well) who believe that many (even most?) individuals who end up in an osteopathic medical school do so for the same reason some people end up attending medical school in the Caribbean - because they were rejected from M.D. schools. And let's face it -


for some individuals this is indeed the case. Hopefully, most people who pursue an osteopathic education do so because they find the osteopathic philosophy appealing. Because some people (even in my own institution) do feel this way, I believe osteopathic students and residents have to work that much harder to put their best efforts forward at all times. When we have the occasional resident who comes through our department who is not where he or she should be in terms of knowledge base, or worse, in terms of effort put forth, they may be looked at differently by some depending on the initials after their name. If their degree is M.D., a comment might be "dumb", or "geeze, he's lazy!". If the person is a D.O., the comment might be "Oh, he's a D.O." as if such behavior or performance is less surprising because less is expected of that person.

The most important thing for any D.O. (let's face it - for any physician) to do is to always put their full effort into their work. There is no substitute for work ethic and dedication. Would I do it again? I would. I have had some measure of success in the allopathic world and I am proud of my training and background. Maybe some of my success was just being in the right place at the right time, but I hope it was because when I was given the chance to compete with M.D.s on their turf, I gave enough effort to be seen not as a D.O. trying to compete in an M.D.'s world, but just as another physician in training, and then as faculty, who was doing a good job.

Some others, however, may have difficulty getting the chance to show what they're made of; some subspecialty fields are so competitive, D.O.s may find it harder to get the opportunity to train in them at large academic institutions. Unfortunately, there are very few large academic osteopathic institutions, and I believe that these types of institutions, in general, are at an advantage in terms of the ability to provide the best subspecialty education and training in some fields.

However, most physicians end up in private practice or on staff at smaller institutions with completely mixed staffs and whether one is an M.D. or a D.O. is completely irrelevant. Also, there is little difference in training between allopathic and osteopathic institutions in primary care and general medical fields. There are other issues as well with regard to primary care vs. specialty fields, and the choices of M.D.s vs. D.O.s, but this is a separate discussion. I would be happy to discuss these things with you in more detail if you would like. I can be reached during the work week.

Best of luck in your future training. If the right effort is put into your career, you can achieve any goals you set for yourself. I am proud of my osteopathic background and I know that D.O.s are equal to M.D.s in every way. Don't ever be ashamed or embarrassed by your choices.

Sincerely,
Philip D. Orons, D.O.
Associate Professor of Radiology
Director, Radiology Residency Program
UPMC Health System

 

[shadow]

Dr. Jay--

I admire your enthusiasm for integrative medicine and the fact that you are investigating potential medical career tracks so early. You definitely have given this more thought than I had as a freshman!

I am also supportive of alternative medicine and would like to incorporate it into my practice as a physician. I considered osteopathy, but chose allopathic medicine for two reasons. One: While I certainly consider osteopathy to be a valid medical field, many people still don't. I feel that I could do more for alternative/integrative medicine by getting the more accepted medical degree and incorporating nontraditional elements. Two: I plan to work internationally and unfortunately DO's are not considered physicians in many countries. (Once I was getting together some paperwork at a US health clinic for health authorities in Australia and there was a disclaimer on the forms saying that they absolutely could not be filled out by a DO.)

If you want to learn more about osteopathy, I recommend "Dr. Fulford's Touch of Life", by Dr. Robert Fulford. You can buy it at Amazon.com.

If you want to discuss this topic further (or just talk about getting in to med school), send me a message.

Good luck with your decision!

 

[NDESTRUKT]

JKD Med,

ND's will not be where MDs and DOs are today. The DO degree, though equivalent and just as good, took longer than 10-15 years to get its acceptance it is today. ND isn't even similar. The US Government wouldn't allow the ND to be where the MD/DO is today. Sorry but I find that ludicrous. However if you wanna go ND, please be my guest!

I don't doubt some alternative practices, acupuncture, herbs - a lot of that stuff is good and works...I wouldn't go to an ND if I had to get my artery ballooned...but again, if you want to - be my guest and tell me how that goes =)

 

[bullhorn]

Great Post Amy. Thanks for sharing that with all of us.

MD or DO...it doesn't matter. The world (including America) is shifting more and more to PREVENTION. And when most physicians are specializing, the general public are moving towards alternative care for prevention. We as future physicians have to realize that patients need to be treated as partners in their healthcare and state of mind is an important part of 'care'. Your patients must feel you have their best interest in mind and that means exactly what the OP said: Integrative approach to medicine. MDs and DOs are not GOD. There is so much out there one does not learn in medical school or even residency. We all have to be constant learners and its important to be OPEN to various healthcare modalities. For people as premeds or med students to relegate something 'alternative' to just a 'crock of $hit' as one poster said, only shafts our patients.

Scenario: You're an OBGYN, and a young woman walks into your office and she is about 7-8 weeks pregnant. She is positive she doesn't want to keep the baby. What are your suggestions for this patient?

I can guess that the vast majority of people on this board would reply Medical Abortion (relatively invasive). Some might add on very much needed counseling, pre and post. How many would suggest a non-invasive herbal abortion? How many even know what I am talking about? How many would know the contraindications for such a method? Better question, what if the girl SUGGESTED it to you---something she read online as an 'alternative'? Would you know how to answer?

We as caregivers need to be open to various possibilities simply to even LEARN about them. Then it is our job to ascertain the best mode of action that will most benefit our patients.

BUT, perhaps this is too idealistic?

 

[DD214_DOC]

Originally posted by NDESTRUKT
JKD Med,

ND's will not be where MDs and DOs are today. The DO degree, though equivalent and just as good, took longer than 10-15 years to get its acceptance it is today. ND isn't even similar. The US Government wouldn't allow the ND to be where the MD/DO is today. Sorry but I find that ludicrous. However if you wanna go ND, please be my guest!

I don't doubt some alternative practices, acupuncture, herbs - a lot of that stuff is good and works...I wouldn't go to an ND if I had to get my artery ballooned...but again, if you want to - be my guest and tell me how that goes =)

Actually, I have no interest in the ND programs. My heart lay with the DOs. However, to assume they will never be equal could be a mistake. Yes, it took DOs decades to end up where they are, but they also started in the 1800s. This is 2003, things have changed. If NDs reorganized and began to head in the same direction that DOs did decades ago, it certainly would not be surprising for them to be in the hospitals alongside MDs and DOs in the future. Who knows, maybe in some horrible twist of fate NDs will become the foremost providers of healthcare!

With the rising costs of prescriptions and insurance, combined with some of the side-effects of current medications, it would not be surprising.

Personally, I think NDs may be on the right track to becoming preventive-oriented physicians. Current medicine practicies are focused on the unhealthy body, with little attention payed to keeping people healthy in the first place. NDs may just steal a chunk of our business in the future.

 

[Dr_Jay_wannabe]

Originally posted by omarsaleh66
u could do family practice via DO or MD route and then do a fellowship in alternative medicine

What kind of fellowships are availible in alternative medicine? Where are they?

I suppose one of the acupuncture CME programs would be a great start, but are there others?

I have heard of Dr. Weil's in Arizona, but that doesn't sound like you recieve clinical training in the modalities, I think you just learn how to refer patients on.

I know UCLA, Miami, and some college in the Northeastern US, like New Jersey or New York, also have acupuncture coarses. Are there others?

 

[oldtimer]

Although the distinction between MD and DO may be slight for some, I would go the MD route simply because the DO has a tougher road ahead than the MD. If you want to go into a competitive specialty, MD's predominate. This may be a shallow reason, but it is how medicine works today. Why make it harder on yourself if you don't have to? I would consider DO only if they were on a level playing field as MD.