DO/Ph.D., ANYONE?

[thisisapickle]

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Anyone who has applied, been accepted or completed a D.O./Ph.D.

What is the admission process like?

Are the GPA/MCAT averages similar to the MD/PhD?

Is any one program better than another?
Any info. will be very useful.

THANKS FOR YOUR RESPONSES. BEST TO ALL!!

 

[dave613]

Try UMDNJ. I was once looking into this. They offer a somewhat competitive stipend and have some decent research going on there.

It's located in stratford, which is 20 min from philly.

Look into it.

 

[stochastic]

I am a third year (1st year of Ph.D.) D.O./Ph.D. student at OSUCHS in Tulsa, OK.

Apply and get accepted to medical school as usual. Then if you have a >30 MCAT, you pretty much get automatically accepted into the Ph.D. program. If your MCAT is below 30, GRE is required. We have a fairly new D.O./Ph.D. program and graduate program (they evolved at the same time ~ 8years ago), so we have only had four graduates and there are currently only two students in the program. I have no idea about the average GPA of those accepted. MSU has the oldest and thus largest D.O./Ph.D. program, which is a plus. Judging which one is better depends on 1) quality of medical training (see US News and World Reports' ranking for an estimate) and 2) the specific area in which you would like to do research (look up basic science faculty at each institution and contact those you are interested in).

Hope that helps.
Feel free to PM.

 

[Neuronix]

Do any DO/PhD programs have programs with full funding? Full funding means full tuition and stipend benefits throughout the entire program. I made a challenge a few years ago to the forum to find a DO/PhD program that was advertising fully-funded spots and it didn't seem like there was one.

This is one of the biggest distinctions in my mind between MD/PhD and DO/PhD. Most MD/PhD programs provide full funding for usually all of their MD/PhDs. I suppose there's a reason for this. Osteopathic schools focus more on primary care, while the physician-scientist traditionally has been a specialist. As a part of this, it doesn't seem like the DO schools are putting much into basic science research. The DO schools just don't seem to be investing much in their research, and the schools that do have the most DO/PhD spots are connected to allopathic schools and research centers (i.e. UMDNJ, MSU).

To me if it's the case that you're a DO student just taking some time off to get a PhD, I have a hard time seeing the point. Why not do them separately? There's no kind of integration or financial motivation in that sort of environment. Then again, I'm showing my own personal bias as I wouldn't have joined a MD/PhD program if it wasn't well integrated and fully-funded.

While I have no data, I would assume that the average GPA/MCAT of a fully-funded MD/PhD student is much higher than that of a DO/PhD. Part of it is that DO students tend to have lower stats to begin with. Another part is that there seems to be a big GPA/MCAT/Research Experience difference between a fully-funded MD/PhD student and a not fully-funded MD/PhD student.

Hope I didn't just insult the DO/PhDs too much. Thanks for posting stochastic!

 

[RxnMan]

...I made a challenge a few years ago to the forum to find a DO/PhD program that was advertising fully-funded spots and it didn't seem like there was one...

This is an interesting point, and something everyone should consider when thinking about getting a PhD in addition to a medical degree.

...Osteopathic schools focus more on primary care, while the physician-scientist traditionally has been a specialist. As a part of this, it doesn't seem like the DO schools are putting much into basic science research...

I agree with this as well. I'd also argue that DO schools are generally younger than MD schools, and it takes awhile to get the financial base to support research efforts.

...Another part is that there seems to be a big GPA/MCAT/Research Experience difference between a fully-funded MD/PhD student and a not fully-funded MD/PhD student...

I've never heard of this. Can you give me (as much as possible,) some examples of this difference?

 

[Neuronix]

I've never heard of this. Can you give me (as much as possible,) some examples of this difference?

Only anecdote I'm afraid. I've had several IM, SDN Chat, and in person conversations where the person I'm talking to is convinced that their MD/PhD program is less competitive than their MD program. This has always been people who are at or have gone to lower tier allopathic schools with unfunded MD/PhD programs. They usually tell me that the GPA/MCAT of those MD/PhDs are the same if not lower than the MD only students, but again, it's only anecdote and I don't know whether that's reliable information.

There are two problems with me coming to any solid conclusion on this issue. The first is, I have no data (Maebea can you help?) on this. Part of the problem is that the unfunded MD/PhD programs tend not to be in the inner circle of the MSTPs that all share information with each other. The only thing I know for sure is that unfunded positions have a much higher program dropout rate (at least here at Penn when they used to have unfunded spots).

The other issue is that there's a confounding variable. To generalize wildly, the top USNews research ranking MD programs are the MSTP schools. the next tier down are the fully-funded MD/PhD programs. For the most part, you have to get to lower tier allopathic schools before you see wholly unfunded MD/PhD programs. Are the matriculant numbers lower based on the tier/prestige of the school or are they lower based on funding? To answer that question I'd want to look at two pools of programs.

1) Higher tier MD programs with unfunded MD/PhD programs
2) Lower tier MD programs with fully funded MD/PhD programs

That to me would answer the question of what is really driving the competitiveness. The truth is, it's probably a combination of both, though one could reasonably suspect that just not funded vs. funded drives a good amount of competition. I mean, shouldn't ~$250,000 do that? 😉

 

[stochastic]

Do any DO/PhD programs have programs with full funding?

...

Hope I didn't just insult the DO/PhDs too much. Thanks for posting stochastic!

To my knowledge, there are no DO/PhD programs that advertise full funding. OSU and MSU, offer stipend support during all years of the program and tuition waiver during the PhD.

I do not feel insulted at all. You spoke truth. I am were I am by choice. I interviewed at MSTP programs, fully-funded MD/PhD programs, and non-funded programs. I was accepted to at least one in each of the three categories. In the end family life and personal comforts mattered more to me than my "high-power" medical research career. My career potential has undoubtedly suffered, but I am okay with that.

 

[1Path]

I do not feel insulted at all. You spoke truth. I am were I am by choice. I interviewed at MSTP programs, fully-funded MD/PhD programs, and non-funded programs. I was accepted to at least one in each of the three categories. In the end family life and personal comforts mattered more to me than my "high-power" medical research career. My career potential has undoubtedly suffered, but I am okay with that.

I've met one DO/PhD resident and in general, the combined degree students DO/PhD, MD/PhD are sharper than the MD only students I've seen. Irronically, the one DO only resident I know is by far the sharpest resident I've EVER seen, period! Education truley is what you make of it.

Having said that, I serioulsy doubt that a talented DO/PhD who is well-connected (this has proven to be far more important than "credentials" ), will have professional limitations. And I say this as a person who would have glady and preferably chosen DO/PhD (the students are just too cool, laid back, older, more mature IMHO) over MD/PhD if I didn't have geographic limitations.

 

[MahlerROCKS]

Do any DO/PhD programs have programs with full funding? Full funding means full tuition and stipend benefits throughout the entire program.

Full funding:
--University of North Texas: all DO/PhDs receive funding, and only competitive masters students receive funding. UNT also has received a very large amount of NIH funding in the past few years--I can't remember the exact sum, but it’s very large for an osteopathic school
--UNJSMD

Partial Funding:
Ohio University
Oklahoma State
Michigan State

MD schools with partial funding (please feel free to add additional schools)
University of Missouri
University of South Dakota

 

[Neuronix]

Do any DO/PhD programs have programs with full funding? Full funding means full tuition and stipend benefits throughout the entire program.

Full funding:
--University of North Texas: all DO/PhDs receive funding, and only competitive masters students receive funding. UNT also has received a very large amount of NIH funding in the past few years--I can't remember the exact sum, but it's very large for an osteopathic school

http://www.hsc.unt.edu/education/dual/financial.cfm

They sure don't say so on their website. Not saying I don't believe you, but I wonder why they don't come out and say it to try to recruit students?

--UNJSMD

I assume you mean UMDNJ, which is also pretty ambiguous about full funding.

http://www3.umdnj.edu/gsbstrat/DO-PhD/DO_PhD.htm

Not trying to knock DO/PhD here, just wondering why they don't mention full funding if they're giving it for all their incoming students?

 

[MahlerROCKS]

Not trying to knock DO/PhD here, just wondering why they don't mention full funding if they're giving it for all their incoming students?

I have no idea, I think the reason why is that because they are new institutions, they don't have the same streamline of cash coming from the NIH, as older, more prestigious universities do. Therefore, they might not be able to guarantee funding. About North Texas, there is a girl who posted in the DO forums about the funding issue--I'll try and see if I can find it

 

[MahlerROCKS]

http://www.hsc.unt.edu/education/dual/financial.cfm

They sure don't say so on their website. Not saying I don't believe you, but I wonder why they don't come out and say it to try to recruit students?

Sorry, I read an earlier discussion wrong--North Texas has full funding for the PhD portion, and funding for the MD portion (usually), but you still have to pay instate tuition for med school. I know for most of the other programs you only pay for the first two years; still, the funding issue, until resolved, will leave DO/PhD programs less competitive

 

[MahlerROCKS]

Updated:

MD schools with partial funding (please feel free to add additional schools)
Georgetown
Medical College of Ohio (Toledo)
Temple
University of Missouri
University of South Dakota

 

[Caristra]

UMDNJ-NJMS for the MD/PHD is slightly sketchy on the funding. (You pay the first two years and they waive all the other years of tuition. They give you a stipend all years and then upon completion of the PHD phase they pay you back for the first two years). So I doubt they do more for the DO/PHD. Perhaps it is a simliar repayment plan?