MD & DO Do programs approach MD and DO separately in terms of shelf exams?

[deleted1139416]

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT an MD vs DO debate, and I will report anyone who tried to make it one.

Considering that MD students take NBME shelf exams and DOs take NBOME, how do programs that seriously consider DOs approach DO applicants who take COMAT exams? I know many programs know how poor quality COMATs are, so do they just weigh board scores just more heavy? Or focus on MSPE comments more? Etc.

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[FootballAndSkiing]

Not sure the answer to this, but my DO school takes the NBME shelfs, so it just depends on the school.

 

[Taddy Mason]

My n=2.5

I was part of the applicant review/interview committee at my residency for the past 3 years, and am currently doing the same for both my fellowship and it’s associated residency program. FWIW, my residency program was previously very DO friendly but by the time I started as an intern it was lukewarm at best, however interviewed(s) a fair number of DO applicants every year. That an applicant was a DO was never explicitly factored into ratings or rankings for any of the aspects in which I was involved (unless an interviewer did so implicitly). So, basically everything except making the program match list, which was solely up to the PD at the end of the day; but I did see it prior to the match every year and it never seemed to depart from applicant/interview discussions prior to that point to suggest a clear, explicit bias against DOs. For the applications I reviewed (both DO and MD) I never really looked at shelf scores as a specific data point but rather the MSPE as a whole, and if anything paid much closer attention to preceptor comments. MSPEs are basically like trying to read tea leaves and not all schools include student shelf scores in them.

Same approach in looking at residency applications where I’m a fellow, though this is my first year here so Idk if others will do differently when it comes to rating and ranking applicants but I highly doubt it. For fellowship applicants the MSPE (and thus shelf scores by association) are basically a formality.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Nobody cares. My school didn’t even report comat scores. Most schools don’t.

 

[deleted1139416]

My n=2.5

I was part of the applicant review/interview committee at my residency for the past 3 years, and am currently doing the same for both my fellowship and it’s associated residency program. FWIW, my residency program was previously very DO friendly but by the time I started as an intern it was lukewarm at best, however interviewed(s) a fair number of DO applicants every year. That an applicant was a DO was never explicitly factored into ratings or rankings for any of the aspects in which I was involved (unless an interviewer did so implicitly). So, basically everything except making the program match list, which was solely up to the PD at the end of the day; but I did see it prior to the match every year and it never seemed to depart from applicant/interview discussions prior to that point to suggest a clear, explicit bias against DOs. For the applications I reviewed (both DO and MD) I never really looked at shelf scores as a specific data point but rather the MSPE as a whole, and if anything paid much closer attention to preceptor comments. MSPEs are basically like trying to read tea leaves and not all schools include student shelf scores in them.

Same approach in looking at residency applications where I’m a fellow, though this is my first year here so Idk if others will do differently when it comes to rating and ranking applicants but I highly doubt it. For fellowship applicants the MSPE (and thus shelf scores by association) are basically a formality.

Nobody cares. My school didn’t even report comat scores. Most schools don’t.

The problem is that I’m putting a LOT of effort into my rotations and getting a lot of great comments and good preceptor scores on my MSPE. However my COMATs are poor and they bring my scores down to a High Pass. I’m just hoping residencies will figure out that the problem is just my COMAT scores - at least that way if I do well on Step 2 I can make up for it. But there’s no way to make up for a bad MSPE comment.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

The problem is that I’m putting a LOT of effort into my rotations and getting a lot of great comments and good preceptor scores on my MSPE. However my COMATs are poor and they bring my scores down to a High Pass. I’m just hoping residencies will figure out that the problem is just my COMAT scores - at least that way if I do well on Step 2 I can make up for it. But there’s no way to make up for a bad MSPE comment.

No one cares. Truly. Programs will look at your grades and then move on. No one will be sitting there pondering about your comat scores.

My school only gave P or H. That was it. No High Pass option. Most of my clinical grades were P because of the ridiculous requirements to get H. Trust me, this is one of those things you sit around and worry about as a student and then you get to the other side and realize how little it mattered.

 

[Darrow O'Lykos]

Trust me, this is one of those things you sit around and worry about as a student and then you get to the other side and realize how little it mattered.

Would you say then that Step 2 has truly absorbed the entirety of the importance of Step 1 now that it's P/F? I was under the impression that clinical grades increased in relevancy with Step 1 going P/F (albeit not to the level of importance of Step 2 scores).

 

[Taddy Mason]

The problem is that I’m putting a LOT of effort into my rotations and getting a lot of great comments and good preceptor scores on my MSPE. However my COMATs are poor and they bring my scores down to a High Pass. I’m just hoping residencies will figure out that the problem is just my COMAT scores - at least that way if I do well on Step 2 I can make up for it. But there’s no way to make up for a bad MSPE comment.

Like I said above, interpreting MSPEs is like reading tea leaves and different individuals are going to interpret and place weight on them differently. Some are absolutely useless. Some (few) are really good in that they give the exact breakdown of how grades are calculated, don’t use an asinine grading scheme, give grade distributions, don’t engage in grade inflation (e.g., a disproportionate number of students get H and HP or the school uses “honors” for “pass”, “adjective x honors” for “high pass”, and “adjective y honors” for “honors”), don’t engage in significant grade deflation (rare but I’ve come across it), and use structured and meaningful templates for summative comments. Most fall in the middle. Thus it makes them difficult to use as isolated metrics when comparing applicants unless they happen to come from the same school, and even then their utility doesn’t always improve that much. MSPEs really only standout if they fall into an extreme (positive or negative) and those that do are a small minority.

 

[Taddy Mason]

Would you say then that Step 2 has truly absorbed the entirety of the importance of Step 1 now that it's P/F? I was under the impression that clinical grades increased in relevancy with Step 1 going P/F (albeit not to the level of importance of Step 2 scores).

Step 1 just became P/F in January so there’s absolutely no data on this.

 

[Darrow O'Lykos]

Step 1 just became P/F in January so there’s absolutely no data on this.

Plenty of PDs already switched to not looking at Step 1 scores this past cycle, so I was just curious what the general mood was this past cycle, and what is expected for the future. I understand that there aren't any data out there on this, save for the survey of PDs that was released this past year after the announcement of going P/F was made but before there are any charting outcomes on the matter.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Would you say then that Step 2 has truly absorbed the entirety of the importance of Step 1 now that it's P/F? I was under the impression that clinical grades increased in relevancy with Step 1 going P/F (albeit not to the level of importance of Step 2 scores).

For my program yes pretty much. The other stuff matters but Step 2 is the undisputed new king.