Do Residency Programs look down upon DO schools?

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Disenchanted 1

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Just a question for you guys, I heard from couple of 2nd, 3rd year med students in one TX school that I interviewed at that residency programs look down upon DO schools and that with a DO degree it gets harder to go into competetive residency programs like anesthesiology or dermatology? Is that true or is it pretty much BS? Since the school was an MD school I thought maybe they are just saying that.
 
It's true.
 
Yeah, it's true. For no valid reason, there's a lingering bias against DO's in the allopathic community--it's very difficult for DO's to land spots in allopathic residency programs, especially the highly competitive ones.
 
Originally posted by elias514
Yeah, it's true. For no valid reason, there's a lingering bias against DO's in the allopathic community--it's very difficult for DO's to land spots in allopathic residency programs, especially the highly competitive ones.
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Not entirely untrue, but keep in mind that a huge # of DOs do allopathic residencies, so it isn't everywhere (really isn't a problem in the noncompetitive and moderately competitive specialties). Also, the highly competitive residencies are also difficult for MDs to get into. I will acknowlege, though, that DOs getting into allopathic programs in things like neurosurg & derm are nearly nonexistent.
 
Originally posted by JKDMed
http://www.spineuniverse.com/mdpage.php?doctorID=914

http://www.michiganevaluationgroup.com/profiles/Dr. Carr c.v..pdf

http://www.pediatricneurosurgerygroup.net/staff.htm

http://www.aad.org/DermSP/DermProfile/profile.php?prof_id=82

http://www.stanleysroland-do.com/

http://www.homestead.com/doctorderm/cv.html

I wouldn't exactly call them, "non existant".
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Aw, c'mon. I didn't say they didn't exist at all, I was making the point that they're very uncommon. Anyways, you posted DOs in the highly competitive specialties, but they didn't all go through allopathic residencies/fellowships, which was the point of my post anyways. There are osteopathic residencies and fellowships in these specialties...and they're very tough to get into just like the allopathic ones.
 
The fact that DO's have a harder time getting into allopathic residency programs than allopathic grads isn't a big deal, because there are plenty of osteopathic residencies and fellowships. More importantly, the osteopathic graduates of these programs practice alongside MD's, make the same amount of money, and enjoy the same benefits of being a medical doctor.

One thing to keep in mind about the issue of osteopaths earning spots in allopathic residency programs is the national board examinations. For osteopaths, the licensing exam is the COMLEX, for allopaths the USMLE. Osteopathic grads, if they're seriously interested in landing a spot in an allopathic residency program, must take BOTH exams (step 1 of each). That SUCKS ASS.
 
For osteopaths, the licensing exam is the COMLEX, for allopaths the USMLE. Osteopathic grads, if they're seriously interested in landing a spot in an allopathic residency program, must take BOTH exams (step 1 of each). That SUCKS ASS.
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Ahhhhhhh......crap that sux !! So here is my question then, so are DO schools merely an option for students with lower scores or are there advantages in going to one. I, personally, didn't apply to it just for the reason that I thought it would be much difficult to get into competetive residency programs. But now I am actually kinda regretting it. What is you guys' take on that?
 
so are DO schools merely an option for students with lower scores
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Yes. They exist solely to absorb whatever rejects there are from the allopathic pool of applicants. I beleive this is mentioned in the 'osteopathic philosophy'. In fact, Andrew Taylor Still was so dismayed by the increasing number of rejected applicants from US medical schools that he founded a unique system of medical education that could cater to these forlorn sub-standard students. The 'osteo' in osteopathic actually signifies the bony matter that the DO has in their skull in place of brain tissue.

More recently, the federal government has mandated that more osteopathic schools be built, presumably to soak up some of the lesser-qualified college grads and delay their entry into today's shabby job market.

DO schools fulfill an important niche in American health care. By catering exclusively to second-class students, they insure the production of second-class doctors, thus keeping intact the institution of medical elitism we all know and love.
 
Originally posted by Echinoidea
Yes. They exist solely to absorb whatever rejects there are from the allopathic pool of applicants. I beleive this is mentioned in the 'osteopathic philosophy'. In fact, Andrew Taylor Still was so dismayed by the increasing number of rejected applicants from US medical schools that he founded a unique system of medical education that could cater to these forlorn sub-standard students. The 'osteo' in osteopathic actually signifies the bony matter that the DO has in their skull in place of brain tissue.

More recently, the federal government has mandated that more osteopathic schools be built, presumably to soak up some of the lesser-qualified college grads and delay their entry into today's shabby job market.

DO schools fulfill an important niche in American health care. By catering exclusively to second-class students, they insure the production of second-class doctors, thus keeping intact the institution of medical elitism we all know and love.
Click to expand...

Chill out! The post was from an uninformed premed. Learn how to pick your fights, for god's sake
 
hehe.......seems like my typa school !! If I dont get in this year, I will soon be joining the "forlorn substandard students" of the DO school.
 
Originally posted by Disenchanted 1
So here is my question then, so are DO schools merely an option for students with lower scores
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There is a group of future DOs who choose to go DO over MD such as I may do. Sometimes you have to get your priorities straight and make decisions accordingly. As for me, there are more important things in my life to worry about than the letters behind my name.
 
Originally posted by Echinoidea
Yes. They exist solely to absorb whatever rejects there are from the allopathic pool of applicants. I beleive this is mentioned in the 'osteopathic philosophy'.
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:laugh:

Just take the USMLE as a DO and go into whatever allopathic residency you want to. (Assuming you get a competitive score)
 
COMLEX is required for graduation from DO schools. You can't just take USMLE.
 
Originally posted by elias514
The fact that DO's have a harder time getting into allopathic residency programs than allopathic grads isn't a big deal, because there are plenty of osteopathic residencies and fellowships. More importantly, the osteopathic graduates of these programs practice alongside MD's, make the same amount of money, and enjoy the same benefits of being a medical doctor.

One thing to keep in mind about the issue of osteopaths earning spots in allopathic residency programs is the national board examinations. For osteopaths, the licensing exam is the COMLEX, for allopaths the USMLE. Osteopathic grads, if they're seriously interested in landing a spot in an allopathic residency program, must take BOTH exams (step 1 of each). That SUCKS ASS.
Click to expand...

Actually there are NOT enough Osteopathic residencies to go around for those students graduating. So, every year future DOs apply to allopathic residencies out of necessity. And yes to do so and be successful, you must take both exams. COMLEX is necessary regardless. Extra USMLE is optional.

I, too, am someone that might choose a DO school over a MD school. You have to look at other aspects when choosing a school...student body, overall philosophy, auxiliary programs, tuition, location etc. Basically if you love a school, don't be afraid to go there because you are worried about your letters after your name.
 
Originally posted by elias514
Yeah, it's true. For no valid reason, there's a lingering bias against DO's in the allopathic community--it's very difficult for DO's to land spots in allopathic residency programs, especially the highly competitive ones.
Click to expand...

I think the bias is unfair, but it is harder to land allopathic residencies from a DO program.

Few people would argue its unfair that for two, very nice, open, and caring people to apply for one residency spot. Both have equal board scores and comparable Dean's letters. Both had wonderful interviews and both will be wonderful physicians. The difference is Applicant X graduated atop his class from Hopkins and Applicant Y graduated from atop his class at State U. Few would argue that the Hopkins graduate has the edge here.

Is the degree to which is it difficult for DOs to obtain Allopathic residencies fair? I dont know and probably not. Is it fair that allopaths get _some_ preference to their own residency spots. You bet.

Coops
 
Dude, Hopkins grads always have an edge. They're the best trained medical graduates in the country, and they get first dibs on residencies. Every Hopkins grad scores a top residency in his/her specialty of choice. The match list at Hopkins is freakin ridiculous. Practically every match is at a top-5 program. Take a look at it. If you still think that Hopkins men and women don't have a significant edge in the Match, you're crazy.
 
There is a group of future DOs who choose to go DO over MD such as I may do. Sometimes you have to get your priorities straight and make decisions accordingly. As for me, there are more important things in my life to worry about than the letters behind my name.
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This is right out of Saturday Night Live. Keep telling yourself that, dude, and maybe you'll believe it. It's guys like you that also insist that what's inside matters most - cause they can't score a chick under 180 lbs. :laugh:
 
Originally posted by Mr. Pretentious
This is right out of Saturday Night Live. Keep telling yourself that, dude, and maybe you'll believe it. It's guys like you that also insist that what's inside matters most - cause they can't score a chick under 180 lbs. :laugh:
Click to expand...
🙄
 
Originally posted by Echinoidea
Yes. They exist solely to absorb whatever rejects there are from the allopathic pool of applicants. I beleive this is mentioned in the 'osteopathic philosophy'. In fact, Andrew Taylor Still was so dismayed by the increasing number of rejected applicants from US medical schools that he founded a unique system of medical education that could cater to these forlorn sub-standard students. The 'osteo' in osteopathic actually signifies the bony matter that the DO has in their skull in place of brain tissue.

More recently, the federal government has mandated that more osteopathic schools be built, presumably to soak up some of the lesser-qualified college grads and delay their entry into today's shabby job market.

DO schools fulfill an important niche in American health care. By catering exclusively to second-class students, they insure the production of second-class doctors, thus keeping intact the institution of medical elitism we all know and love.
Click to expand...

That is SOOO NOT true. Average GPA at DO schools 3.4. Perhaps because the average MCAT is 26 you think that makes DO students second class students, which is bogus. A lot of DO students are non-trads returning to school from a career and have families, so they might not be able to dedicate as much time to the MCAT.

Talk about the elitism,..... you reek of it
 
chill.

it's obvious that Echinoidea was teasing with that post. It was actually funny.

The numbers at mid to lower tier MD programs, some state and historically black schools, have numbers lower than most DO schools, so who cares.

However, I do think that some applicants, and we've written about this many times, do apply to DO programs because their numbers are low. But that really doesn't matter. I think DO schools like nontraditional applicants. They're not all about numbers.

I think we should all feel priveleged to have the chance to attend any school DO or MD. I know I'm feeling good.
 
Yes Echonoidea was JK. I believe he is going to a DO school next year.

As for me, a small part of the reason why I like DO schools over MD schools is that underdog feeling. That feeling that I'm not doing what everyone else is doing but I'm doing something that's different, and what I believe is right. If I do become a DO, I will look forward to educating the public about what it is.
 
Guess I missed the joke in that thread. Am I losing my sense of humor:wow: Sorry, I have been packing boxes ALL day to move and my brain is dead. And he is going to go to a DO school, I think you are correct.
 
Originally posted by LP1CW
chill.

it's obvious that Echinoidea was teasing with that post. It was actually funny.
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no, it wasn't funny. that kind of humor is pretty stupid actually, although i agree with what slickness said...there are a few people that chose DO over MD...slickness is an example - there aren't too many but there are. some people do it because they have a family and it's more convenient...others because their parents are DO's and they like to keep it in the game type of thing. i chose my school based on tuition and location and in my case it ended up being an MD school otherwise i would have chosen a DO school too. Everyone has there own reasons.
 
I'm not prepared to say that the bias against DO's in competitive (or not so competitive, as the case may be) allopathic residencies is inherently unfair. The point is well taken though. Two applicants apply to a derm residency, one from a DO school and the other from an MD school. Both have the same grades, USMLE Step 1 scores and evaluations. There's no question the edge will go to the MD student. The apparent inequity is manifest, but is it unfair?

Consider a second example. Two MD grads, one from Ohio State and one from Hopkins apply for the same derm residency. They have the same USMLE Step 1 scores, same grades and same evaluation. There's no question which one will have the edge. The same inequity is evident. But this one doesn't seem unfair to me at all.

Look - to the extent that one (albiet begrudgedly) accepts and rationalizes the edge given to the Hopkins grad in the second scenario he should be prepared to also rationalize the edge given to the MD grad in the first scenario. There are many almost-MD's on this forum who will not accept the fact that a Hopkins education is any better than an Ohio State one (I am one of them), but that at the same time will accept the notion that not only will the Hopkins grad get the nod, but that no huge injustice will have been done if he does. The reputation of a school is in large part determined by the aggregate quality of the students who attend - no if, ands, or buts about it. And while there's no guarantee that a student with a 36 MCAT is better than one with a 30 (and in many cases he won't be), in the aggregate, 36's suggest a higher quality of student pure and simple.

The point is this: The sorts of judgments everybody on this forum makes about the relative merits of MD schools versus DO schools and MD's versus DO's are rooted in the exact same sorts of objective and subjective criteria, biases and suppositions that inform these sorts of judgments when comparing Hopkins grads to Ohio State grads. It works both ways; we all have the same sorts of problems (unless you go to Hopkins, that is).

Judd
 
I'm a DO at the Mayo Clinic and no one seems to have a problem with my "osteopathicness." The are practical things that you can do as a DO to increase your attractiveness to MD programs: Do well in school, take the USMLE, rotate at MD programs and get good letters of rec from prominent individuals in the field of your interest.

Moreover, I run into DO's in several other programs all the time: Ortho, rads, anesthesia, peds, IM, surgery, psychiatry, etc. It all comes down to personal work ethic, ambition, and drive. I think that pre-meds should relax and interview at a variety of schools and make the decision that is best for their own individual circumstance. This issue comes up so many times over and over and over again that I even wrote an article for the SDN website. I wonder if anyone ever reads it???

http://www.osteopathic.com/do/mdordo.asp
 
Originally posted by juddson
I'm not prepared to say that the bias against DO's in competitive (or not so competitive, as the case may be) allopathic residencies is inherently unfair. The point is well taken though. Two applicants apply to a derm residency, one from a DO school and the other from an MD school. Both have the same grades, USMLE Step 1 scores and evaluations. There's no question the edge will go to the MD student. The apparent inequity is manifest, but is it unfair?

Consider a second example. Two MD grads, one from Ohio State and one from Hopkins apply for the same derm residency. They have the same USMLE Step 1 scores, same grades and same evaluation. There's no question which one will have the edge. The same inequity is evident. But this one doesn't seem unfair to me at all.

Look - to the extent that one (albiet begrudgedly) accepts and rationalizes the edge given to the Hopkins grad in the second scenario he should be prepared to also rationalize the edge given to the MD grad in the first scenario. There are many almost-MD's on this forum who will not accept the fact that a Hopkins education is any better than an Ohio State one (I am one of them), but that at the same time will accept the notion that not only will the Hopkins grad get the nod, but that no huge injustice will have been done if he does. The reputation of a school is in large part determined by the aggregate quality of the students who attend - no if, ands, or buts about it. And while there's no guarantee that a student with a 36 MCAT is better than one with a 30 (and in many cases he won't be), in the aggregate, 36's suggest a higher quality of student pure and simple.

The point is this: The sorts of judgments everybody on this forum makes about the relative merits of MD schools versus DO schools and MD's versus DO's are rooted in the exact same sorts of objective and subjective criteria, biases and suppositions that inform these sorts of judgments when comparing Hopkins grads to Ohio State grads. It works both ways; we all have the same sorts of problems (unless you go to Hopkins, that is).

Judd
Click to expand...


Were you a literature major? You write well, I like reading your long posts.
 
Originally posted by juddson
Two applicants apply to a derm residency, one from a DO school and the other from an MD school. Both have the same grades, USMLE Step 1 scores and evaluations. There's no question the edge will go to the MD student. The apparent inequity is manifest, but is it unfair?

The point is this: The sorts of judgments everybody on this forum makes about the relative merits of MD schools versus DO schools and MD's versus DO's are rooted in the exact same sorts of objective and subjective criteria, biases and suppositions that inform these sorts of judgments when comparing Hopkins grads to Ohio State grads. It works both ways; we all have the same sorts of problems (unless you go to Hopkins, that is).
Click to expand...
"There's no question the edge will go to the MD student. "

I disagree with this statement. There is no doubt that 'the reputation of a school is in large part determined by the aggregate quality of the students who attend,' but to imply that admissions standards have anything to do with the standard of education provided and quality of doctors produced by these schools is nonsense. "Negative bias" might actually favor the DO. I would think that a PD would be impressed by a DO student scoring the same as an MD student on the USMLE. Maybe this is only wishful thinking, but think of it like the URM and the white male applying for the same job with the exact same CV. I'd pick the underdog. 🙂
 
Originally posted by exmike
Were you a literature major? You write well, I like reading your long posts.
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You flatter me. Nope. Philosophy all the way. But I have been to a good law school.

Judd
 
Hey Exmike,

Is your mdapplicant profile up to date? Congrats on the OSU acceptance. In state tuition after the first year. A very good value in Ohio as far as I am concerned.

Are you in the line for CCLM?

Judd
 
Originally posted by drusso
This issue comes up so many times over and over and over again that I even wrote an article for the SDN website. I wonder if anyone ever reads it???

http://www.osteopathic.com/do/mdordo.asp
Click to expand...
I've read it before.😀 😀 It is good a good article.
 
Originally posted by juddson
I'm not prepared to say that the bias against DO's in competitive (or not so competitive, as the case may be) allopathic residencies is inherently unfair. The point is well taken though. Two applicants apply to a derm residency, one from a DO school and the other from an MD school. Both have the same grades, USMLE Step 1 scores and evaluations. There's no question the edge will go to the MD student. The apparent inequity is manifest, but is it unfair?
Judd
Click to expand...

Given then same score and resume, I'd pick the one who works well with his/her colleagues and treats patients well, may it be the MD or the DO.
 
This really belongs in the DO forum in my opinion.
 
Originally posted by DrMom
I will acknowlege, though, that DOs getting into allopathic programs in things like neurosurg & derm are nearly nonexistent.
Click to expand...

Well, back home at the Las Vegas Skin & Cancer Clinic, founded by a couple of Harvard MDs, over 20 years ago, including my now deceased dermatologist, Dr. H Boyer, who is greatly respected in this town, has a couple of DOs and PAs on board their 3 clinics. So I wouldnt exactly call that rare, the staff is evenly split between the two. It wasnt always the case. In the 80s it was all MD, early 90s, the first DO, late 90s to now, more DOs came in. It's a progression I imagine is a national trend.

DOs are fewer in number and the majority of them like family care, and peds; that's where you will find a majority of them, not in more competitive specialties. They seem friendlier as a whole too. Marked difference when I stayed around MD students and DO students while visiting my bros and gf at their respective schools.

UMC, the only trauma center in town serving parts of AZ and CA, often seen on TLC, is headed by a DO who didnt even become a doctor until his 40s.

Do well on your USMLE!!!
 
Originally posted by hotinwoof
It wasnt always the case. In the 80s it was all MD, early 90s, the first DO, late 90s to now, more DOs came in. It's a progression I imagine is a national trend.
Click to expand...

DO participation in the NRMP match has soared since 1996. Don't look at statistics older than about 7 years ago or you will be fooled.
 
Originally posted by juddson
Hey Exmike,

Is your mdapplicant profile up to date? Congrats on the OSU acceptance. In state tuition after the first year. A very good value in Ohio as far as I am concerned.

Are you in the line for CCLM?

Judd
Click to expand...

Nope, didnt apply to CCLCM. Actually didnt know about until i showed up to my Case interview!
 
Originally posted by Buster Douglas
I'd pick the underdog. 🙂
Click to expand...

Well that explains why your username is "Buster Douglas"
🙂
 
In case anyone still cares, I am going to a DO school this fall.

The point my that post was to poke fun at what I thought was a *****ic question - "Do DO schools only exist for allopathic rejects?" or something along that line. I thought I included enough absurdities to make it more than evident that it was a sarcastic post, but I guess I hit the "DO stigma" button in a few of you. Sorry.
 
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