DO satellite schools?

[Docgeorge]

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wow... 161?!??! r u sure?? that is like on par with very large schools... how many does nycom have?? dont they have the largest class???

I gave you the link that shows 161 profs.

 

[LukeWhite]

wow... 161?!??! r u sure?? that is like on par with very large schools... how many does nycom have?? dont they have the largest class???

No, I'm not--that wasn't my figure. My point was that if that IS the figure, we don't have nearly that many acting as real, full-time professors and we still do fine. (I suspect that if AZCOM advertises that as the figure, they're counting preceptors, which is somewhat shady). It doesn't take many profs to teach the first two years, so long as they're good.

As I mentioned, though, some of ours seem a stretch, and weren't recruited from medical education backgrounds. Which is fine up to a point, but does get in the way of learning certain details we probably should. So it's the same point I've been making--satellite schools can turn out great doctors, but they're better suited to turning out primary care than their more established counterparts.

 

[babyruth]

I guess it still boils down to having enough residency spots. Depending on whether we want to be self-sufficient, which I think the AOA wants DOs to be, then we need to have corresponding residency spots. I agree that DOs should fill areas in need, but we shouldn't only be associated with performing those duties. Having more DOs out and training does provide more publicity of the profession, but I have to agree with Docgeorge in that this needs to be in a controlled manner.

It just seems to me a little shady when you look at the motivations behind opening up new schools; are they doing it for the right reasons and are going through the proper channels? Do they care about their impact or their bottom-line?

Since there are already not enough slots as it is, this means that many DOs do allopathic residencies, as already mentioned. By not doing an AOA accredited residency, can you still become a member of the AOA? Are you contributing something back to the profession later on? Are you still a unique member of a certain group? Though the AOA has its many faults, they still promote the uniqueness and unity of the DO community. My point being, if they want to maintain this uniqueness, then they need to regulate this type of activity.

 

[InductionAgent]

Since there are already not enough slots as it is, this means that many DOs do allopathic residencies, as already mentioned. By not doing an AOA accredited residency, can you still become a member of the AOA? Are you contributing something back to the profession later on? Are you still a unique member of a certain group? Though the AOA has its many faults, they still promote the uniqueness and unity of the DO community. My point being, if they want to maintain this uniqueness, then they need to regulate this type of activity.

Sure, you can still be an AOA member, and if you do the paperwork, your PGY-1 year at an ACGME program can be recognized by the AOA.

The type of uniqueness that the AOA frequently advocates is largely detrimental and divisive, and we should strive to modify its agenda.

In my opinion, qualified DOs doing residencies in good Allopathic programs is some of the best P.R. that we can get. It gives MDs exposure to real-live DOs equally capable of doing the work, and helps break down/prevent the MD/DO barrier. Also, it produces DOs who can say tell their patients that they did their residency at a medical facility or university with which they are familiar and trust.

 

[AwesomeO-DO]

AwsomeDO what do you think is a stupid idea? The fact that we have schools opening up branch programs willy nilly or the fact that you were elected to look into it for the SGA?

What is stupid is that our SGA is making assumptions about these schools based on some rumors that aren't even true, and everyone is getting all hyped up because they heard from someone, that heard from someone, that these schools are going to be crap and are going to bring about the downfall of osteopathy as we know it.

 

[(nicedream)]

What is stupid is that our SGA is making assumptions about these schools based on some rumors that aren't even true, and everyone is getting all hyped up because they heard from someone, that heard from someone, that these schools are going to be crap and are going to bring about the downfall of osteopathy as we know it.

That's exactly what it is, hype. Trust me, our professors are committed to us doing very well on the boards, not just passing and moving solely into primary care.

 

[LukeWhite]

That's exactly what it is, hype. Trust me, our professors are committed to us doing very well on the boards, not just passing and moving solely into primary care.

Again, the chip. No one's saying that these schools are going to exclusively turn out primary care docs. No ne's saying that your professors aren't committed to quality education.

But there WILL be, across all these schools, less overall teaching ability because medical professors are not in great supply. Compromises will be made; we have at least a few professors I'm quite sure would have no chance at a job at a well-established state school.

And there WILL be a higher percentage of primary care docs turned out because specialty residencies aren't in oversupply either. Unless you think these satellite schools are going to somehow outperform the others from the get-go, a greater proportion of students are going to go into primary care.

It's easy to reduce others' arguments to straw men like "They're saying that the professors don't care and we're all going to be glorified PAs!" but that's not the argument. School pride's fine and dandy and I'll be the first to defend the niche these schools fill, but I fear you're taking your school pride to extremes that are somewhat out of touch with reality.

 

[benelswick]

This thread is key for me in determining if I apply to osteopathic schools. Please Help me....
When I first heard about DO's more hollistic approach with hands-on techniques and a philosophically rich origin I was very excited about it. But 2 years later I am catching wiffs of B.S. from a situation that doesn't quite add up. If D.O. education was for the creation of a differently but equally trained (or better) doctor, one would think that extensive efforts would be put forth by these schools to acquire superior or better training sites and hospital affiliations. That would be an obvious means to an end. This is simply not the case however. Furthermore if an emphasis was creating a doctor who would serve the underserved in the tradition of Dr. Still one would envision osteopathic state schools with a large public infrastructure and reasonable tuition. This is also not the case.

What seems to be happening instead are large investment groups franchising the setup of cheaply operated private medical schools with high tuition who feed students who are desperate for a medical education into the allopathic residency match. I would have no problem with this if it were made plain that this was the real deal. What I can't stand is B.S. on a collosal scale. For example I'm interested in applying to Tucom but I can't help thinking... what does a group of Israeli investors really care about producing well-trained primary care docs, and how do they get all these sincere mid-western osteo-docs to go along with the scam. Any thoughts?

P.S. I could see myself going osteo and just making use of the posetive elements of the tradition but disdain for the administrative aspects would always be at the back of my mind as I was jumping the obstacles of the DO gone allopathic resident.

 

[Docgeorge]

Focus in on the schools that you feel will give you what you are looking for. For example if you come to DMU you will find that a lot of what you are looking for here. It a matter of wadeing through the BS and getting a look at the culture of the school and seeing if it fits with yours.

 

[(nicedream)]

This thread is key for me in determining if I apply to osteopathic schools. Please Help me....
When I first heard about DO's more hollistic approach with hands-on techniques and a philosophically rich origin I was very excited about it. But 2 years later I am catching wiffs of B.S. from a situation that doesn't quite add up. If D.O. education was for the creation of a differently but equally trained (or better) doctor, one would think that extensive efforts would be put forth by these schools to acquire superior or better training sites and hospital affiliations. That would be an obvious means to an end. This is simply not the case however. Furthermore if an emphasis was creating a doctor who would serve the underserved in the tradition of Dr. Still one would envision osteopathic state schools with a large public infrastructure and reasonable tuition. This is also not the case.

What seems to be happening instead are large investment groups franchising the setup of cheaply operated private medical schools with high tuition who feed students who are desperate for a medical education into the allopathic residency match. I would have no problem with this if it were made plain that this was the real deal. What I can't stand is B.S. on a collosal scale. For example I'm interested in applying to Tucom but I can't help thinking... what does a group of Israeli investors really care about producing well-trained primary care docs, and how do they get all these sincere mid-western osteo-docs to go along with the scam. Any thoughts?

P.S. I could see myself going osteo and just making use of the posetive elements of the tradition but disdain for the administrative aspects would always be at the back of my mind as I was jumping the obstacles of the DO gone allopathic resident.

If the administration and motivations behind the school you attend is really important to you, then you would indeed be better off staying away from many of the private schools. Personally, it's not important to me, but for you - as docgeorge says, focus on the schools that offer what you're looking for. They do exist.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

This thread is key for me in determining if I apply to osteopathic schools. Please Help me....
When I first heard about DO's more hollistic approach with hands-on techniques and a philosophically rich origin I was very excited about it. But 2 years later I am catching wiffs of B.S. from a situation that doesn't quite add up. If D.O. education was for the creation of a differently but equally trained (or better) doctor, one would think that extensive efforts would be put forth by these schools to acquire superior or better training sites and hospital affiliations. That would be an obvious means to an end. This is simply not the case however. Furthermore if an emphasis was creating a doctor who would serve the underserved in the tradition of Dr. Still one would envision osteopathic state schools with a large public infrastructure and reasonable tuition. This is also not the case.

What seems to be happening instead are large investment groups franchising the setup of cheaply operated private medical schools with high tuition who feed students who are desperate for a medical education into the allopathic residency match. I would have no problem with this if it were made plain that this was the real deal. What I can't stand is B.S. on a collosal scale. For example I'm interested in applying to Tucom but I can't help thinking... what does a group of Israeli investors really care about producing well-trained primary care docs, and how do they get all these sincere mid-western osteo-docs to go along with the scam. Any thoughts?

P.S. I could see myself going osteo and just making use of the posetive elements of the tradition but disdain for the administrative aspects would always be at the back of my mind as I was jumping the obstacles of the DO gone allopathic resident.

Take a course or two in business buddy. You'll see that business is made to make money. Boards determine if you know what you need to know in the health clinic, accreditation committees determine if a school is providing the proper education and only you determine if you will be a good doc. If it is making money, it does not mean it's a scam. That's BUSINESS. Otherwise you'll be scamming your patients if you charge them market price for a vaccine.
Since you don't know what a scam is, it is defined as: A fraudulent business scheme. If you don't appreciate osteopathy or the schools that are providing it, by all means, go into allopathic medicine.

 

[(nicedream)]

Take a course or two in business buddy. You'll see that business is made to make money. Boards determine if you know what you need to know in the health clinic, accreditation committees determine if a school is providing the proper education and only you determine if you will be a good doc. If it is making money, it does not mean it's a scam. That's BUSINESS. Otherwise you'll be scamming your patients if you charge them market price for a vaccine.
Since you don't know what a scam is, it is defined as: A fraudulent business scheme. If you don't appreciate osteopathy or the schools that are providing it, by all means, go into allopathic medicine.

I agree with this to some extent, but one of the concerns benelswick voiced was a seeming lack of commitment to postgrad training. That is a valid complaint if one really is looking for a 100% osteopathic education.

 

[babyruth]

Furthermore, health care administration and finance isn't always about making a margin. If you take any master's classes in this or go into health care administration, you will definately find that this is a stumbling block to the business side of medicine. Medicine is a striped beast that takes many faces, and none of them apply to the generic manufacturing style of business. Health care institutions have found that by being cuthroat with business decisions, they will be looked upon the community as non-empathetic to the people they are serving. That is exactly what is happening to these schools because of their motives

Benelswick, please don't become too jaded with what is said on these threads. These are just people blowing steam, me included. Osteopathy is still live and well, but you have to take a grain of salt with a lot of statements.

AwesomeDO = the reason the SGA is concerned about this was because it is an overall concern, even being voiced in COSGP and the AACOM conference this year. This dissent isn't only based on rumors.

 

[RadBad68]

I don't understand why everyone thinks quality decreases when quantity increases. Maybe I could see this is if 30 DO schools opened across the country this year, but not with just 2.

I am currently a student at LECOM-Bradenton in Bradenton, Florida. Overall I have been nothing less than impressed with the faculty and program here. We are 164 students exclusive to the PBL learning pathway. Although the campus is new, the curriculum and faculty are certainly not. Our curriculum follows the PBL pathway used in Erie (though we don't have the lecture-discussion or independent study pathways here- everyone does PBL). Our faculty is very diverse with MD PhD and DO members from around the country. A couple came from Erie, while many came from within Florida and other schools around the country- both MD and DO.

I can't speak for everyone, but friends who I've talked to have all had extremely competitive MCAT scores- I know that was a concern brought up previously. Some of the smaller reasons that many of us are down here- it's close to home (1/3 of the class is from FL), or a reason to live in Florida for a few years. Personally being from IL, I was excited at the opportunity to spend 4 years only 5 miles from the beach! (Though I haven't been since school started b/c anatomy is an insanely busy time.) An even larger draw for me personally was the PBL curriculum and the statistics I've seen from Erie's PBL students.

I don't get much into the politics of the schools that I've been reading a lot about on the forum, but I would be happy to answer anyone?s questions regarding my experiences at LECOM-Bradenton, or satellite schools as much as I can.

-Sarah
[email protected]

 

[mickdogg81]

This is of grave concern to some of us. In the eyes of many of my classmates Branch Schools are suspect. My class through the SGA is in the process of writing a letter to AOA expressing our displeasure with these branch schools. If we are to propell our profession into the next century we need focus on generating more research and improving the quantity and quality of our post graduate education. If we are going to open new schools it should be modeled after VCOM or even better MSU or OSU, not branch schools that are propiatery and have the feel of a puppy mill.

Docgeorge,
Don't mean to bust in on your rant...oh, wait, maybe I do. In what way, shape or form can you verify your statement implying that these branch schools, one of which I happen to attend, aren't going to fulfill the quantity or quality of a post-graduate education? Do you have stats or any kind of proof? Oh, wait, I forgot, you couldn't have any because WE HAVE NOT EVEN GRADUATED YET! As a result, how can you rate a schools postgraduate education as of the present? Or, rather, maybe you just have a personal vindication for some odd reason with these schools. We haven't even graduated a class yet and alone we have people like you whom tend to drag along an issue with no means to the end. To refer to these schools as having the feel of a "puppy mill" is something you need think about. If anything, these schools are going to produce some excellent physicians with the same capabilities as any other DO graduating from, oh let's say....DMU. So now every new school that opens a new branch is capable of being suspect? What about the new program in Atlanta (PCOM)? Are they suspect as well? I don't need an explanation, really don't want one either. But to lump these branch schools as part of an inferior group of medical students is quite frankly, pompous on your part. Oh, and by the way, I DID get accepted to DMU as well.....and I might just make a better doc than u....

 

[DocRadak]

Got damn Mick,

There's no way I could have said it any better myself.

 

[benelswick]

school pride and egos aside.

who here feels like that decision making bodies at there schools are going to bat for them when it comes to creating more opportunities for the students.

because biochem is biochem anywhere.. but exposure to vast pool of patholgies in a system that is full of specialists with highly developed knowledge requires alot more than a lecture hall, it would seem it would require a group of dedicated people with the skills and desire to create that situation by courting the right people at the right institiutions. I mean you want to get more for your $200,000 than some lecture notes and a good luck as your ass gets hit by the door--atleast I do.--Ben.

p.s. Thanks Babyruth, I think you're right I could use an SDN vacation. I think I'm too hung up on it.

 

[DrFeelgoodDO]

I am just starting to see that a few DO schools now have branch sites where some of their students are educated. PCOM has a place in georgia, LECOM has a place in florida, and TUCOM has a place in nevada. When the hell did all of this happen? Does anyone know of other places that are doing this?? Keep in mind guys, this makes our profession look REALLY bad. No MD school in the US does this. They do to a certain extent, but not for large #'s of students and usually it's limited solely to the clinical years, 3 & 4. Why it's bad is that statistically, schools will be putting out huge #s of grad w/o increasing the # of schools in the country. So take a school like PCOM where they already have approx 250 grads per class to start and add on God only knows how many more in georgia. Thats sick; it basically turns these schools into diploma mills. Not to say PCOM, for example, is a bad school, but thats just how this all might be interpreted. And its great way for our MD colleagues to disrespect us more. As DOs, we don't need anymore bull**** political redtape to go through!!!

- Dr. Feelgood UMDNJ-SOM, Class of 2004

 

[Xanderain]

Again, the chip. No one's saying that these schools are going to exclusively turn out primary care docs. No ne's saying that your professors aren't committed to quality education.

But there WILL be, across all these schools, less overall teaching ability because medical professors are not in great supply. Compromises will be made; we have at least a few professors I'm quite sure would have no chance at a job at a well-established state school.

And there WILL be a higher percentage of primary care docs turned out because specialty residencies aren't in oversupply either. Unless you think these satellite schools are going to somehow outperform the others from the get-go, a greater proportion of students are going to go into primary care.

It's easy to reduce others' arguments to straw men like "They're saying that the professors don't care and we're all going to be glorified PAs!" but that's not the argument. School pride's fine and dandy and I'll be the first to defend the niche these schools fill, but I fear you're taking your school pride to extremes that are somewhat out of touch with reality.

I'm afraid you are the one with the chip on the shoulder. You sit here, condemning us, yet you have no cold hard facts. You voice your ill-informed dissent based on rumor and inuendo. I would be willing to bet that our teaching faculty here in Bradenton could outperform your's anyday. Hell, half of them came from Erie (Erie's brightest) and the other half from USF (including the acting anatomy director). We have an ESTABLISHED program in a new building and location. I could see you being concerned over all NEW schools, where nothing is established, but your concerns are unwarranted over branch campuses. Not only that, but there are countless thousands of students who aren't accepted into med school every year. There only fault is that they are 0.1 GPA unit below the average and had a bad interview. Does 0.1 GPA less make you less able to be a good physician? How about a few points on the MCAT? (BTW, the whole low MCAT scores being accepted is a BS rumor- until you can prove it otherwise). Now, I was also accepted to other schools, none of which were branch campuses (and none that had as successful a program as PBL at LECOM)...would going there make me a better doctor? No. You need to stop thinking about yourself and start thinking about the patients of the future. There is going to be a huge doctor shortage as the baby boomers get older. Somebody needs to take care of them. If we don't expand our profession now, then many people will be out of luck when they need help the most. So, in summary, GROW UP!


Joey
MS-I LECOM-Bradenton

 

[AwesomeO-DO]

Docgeorge,
Don't mean to bust in on your rant...oh, wait, maybe I do. In what way, shape or form can you verify your statement implying that these branch schools, one of which I happen to attend, aren't going to fulfill the quantity or quality of a post-graduate education? Do you have stats or any kind of proof? Oh, wait, I forgot, you couldn't have any because WE HAVE NOT EVEN GRADUATED YET! As a result, how can you rate a schools postgraduate education as of the present? Or, rather, maybe you just have a personal vindication for some odd reason with these schools. We haven't even graduated a class yet and alone we have people like you whom tend to drag along an issue with no means to the end. To refer to these schools as having the feel of a "puppy mill" is something you need think about. If anything, these schools are going to produce some excellent physicians with the same capabilities as any other DO graduating from, oh let's say....DMU. So now every new school that opens a new branch is capable of being suspect? What about the new program in Atlanta (PCOM)? Are they suspect as well? I don't need an explanation, really don't want one either. But to lump these branch schools as part of an inferior group of medical students is quite frankly, pompous on your part. Oh, and by the way, I DID get accepted to DMU as well.....and I might just make a better doc than u....

I'm pretty sure DMU, in 4 years, is going to graduate many more dumba$$ physicians than these small branch schools, considering we just accepted 250some students for the 08 class. The bottom 10% at DMU that year will probably outnumber the entire Bradenton 08 class. So who is generating more incompetent docs?

 

[JonnyG]

I think people are being unfair to the branch campuses. They are currently branch campuses because they are New schools. By creating a branch campus, these campus can reach accredidation faster and utilize the existing administrative services already in place. They do not make the profession look bad because everyone has to prove themselves by taking the boards and doing the same rotations. This has happened before, AZCOM is technically a branch campus of Chicago, but since it has had time to establish itself, no one thinks of it as that. I am sure after a few years these schools will assume a separate idenity from their founding school.

And no i did not apply to any of these branch campuses.

 

[cooldreams]

I'm pretty sure DMU, in 4 years, is going to graduate many more dumba$$ physicians than these small branch schools, considering we just accepted 250some students for the 08 class. The bottom 10% at DMU that year will probably outnumber the entire Bradenton 08 class. So who is generating more incompetent docs?

the doc in your class that graduated at the very bottom, still, is a doc. that being said, there are probablly a number of reasons why they are at the bottom, so this should not make them "dumb"

i guess im in defense of that because i was middle of the road in terms of grades in school. however i ran a profitable computer business full time, participated in many extracurrics, and had several projects on the side i was studing. my classwork never fully came first, though maybe it should, it just seemed basically pretty easy to me so i didnt work at it that hard. i also tested on an IQ test as a genius - apparently i break down really complex problems in my head very fast and efficiently, passed several national exams without studying, and got into several graduate instituions, landed a nice paying job in electrical engineering right out of school, and yet, i was just middle of the road in terms of grades.....

 

[DrFeelgoodDO]

I think people are being unfair to the branch campuses. They are currently branch campuses because they are New schools. By creating a branch campus, these campus can reach accredidation faster and utilize the existing administrative services already in place. They do not make the profession look bad because everyone has to prove themselves by taking the boards and doing the same rotations. This has happened before, AZCOM is technically a branch campus of Chicago, but since it has had time to establish itself, no one thinks of it as that. I am sure after a few years these schools will assume a separate idenity from their founding school.

And no i did not apply to any of these branch campuses.

AZCOM is not a branch of Chicago, they are two seperate DO schools within the same university. Look pal, I don't care what happens.... I have a DO from a very reputable place. All I'm saying is this can all be misconstrued by the MD world. So I do respectfully disagree with you. And your rebuttle is kind of weak considering the world we live in today. EVERYONE has to take boards...so no crap!! Doesn't change the fact that these schools are becoming diploma mills. There are other medical degree mills in the world.... they're in the carribbean. Look how much respect they get! Oh yeah, they have to take boards too!

 

[Geronimo]

I think people are being unfair to the branch campuses.

Agreed but it is a "new" way of doing things and that always unsettles people.

By creating a branch campus, these campus can reach accredidation faster and utilize the existing administrative services already in place.

It does make the accredidation faster and easier. Likely, they will later change the school's names. Perhaps not, but if the "future" alumni insist, then things will eventually change.

They do not make the profession look bad because everyone has to prove themselves by taking the boards and doing the same rotations.

Exactly, no one will really care once you've established your reputation as a community physician outside of the school. Most of the doctors I talked to this summer had NEVER had a patient ask them where they went to medical school. That matters ZERO when compared to a doctor's individual reputation.

 

[Geronimo]

And if you can't get past what "MD's" think of you as a DO, you shouldn't have gone to a DO school. Perhaps you are little too insecure.

 

[medic170]

AZCOM is not a branch of Chicago, they are two seperate DO schools within the same university. Look pal, I don't care what happens.... I have a DO from a very reputable place. All I'm saying is this can all be misconstrued by the MD world. So I do respectfully disagree with you. And your rebuttle is kind of weak considering the world we live in today. EVERYONE has to take boards...so no crap!! Doesn't change the fact that these schools are becoming diploma mills. There are other medical degree mills in the world.... they're in the carribbean. Look how much respect they get! Oh yeah, they have to take boards too!

DO sattellite schools are diploma mills like the carribbean? No offense, but that is an idiotic statement

 

[JonnyG]

AZCOM is a separate DO school now, but when it started it was setup the same as a branch campus is today. We may very well see PCOM or Erie University in the future. And the more DOs there are the better. The DO professions problem is NOT one of inferiority, most doctors accept you on the bases of how you perform. The problem is one of information. Most people do not know there are two ways to practice medicine. The diploma mills were done away with in the past. Most of the schools are less than 30 years old. We need more schools to raise the visibility of the profession. Whether DO or MD there will always be lousy doctors who get by the screenings, but there are screenings. The carribbean schools get no respect because they are for profit institutions and there is very little screening of their candidates (people who couldn't get into MD and DO schools).

 

[docbill]

DO school is a DO school is a DO school.. as long as you can do your licensing exams and PASS of course.. who gives a rats assss's tail.

 

[AwesomeO-DO]

the doc in your class that graduated at the very bottom, still, is a doc. that being said, there are probablly a number of reasons why they are at the bottom, so this should not make them "dumb"

i guess im in defense of that because i was middle of the road in terms of grades in school. however i ran a profitable computer business full time, participated in many extracurrics, and had several projects on the side i was studing. my classwork never fully came first, though maybe it should, it just seemed basically pretty easy to me so i didnt work at it that hard. i also tested on an IQ test as a genius - apparently i break down really complex problems in my head very fast and efficiently, passed several national exams without studying, and got into several graduate instituions, landed a nice paying job in electrical engineering right out of school, and yet, i was just middle of the road in terms of grades.....

What I was trying to do was show those people that are skeptical of the education provided at branch schools that there are plenty of students that do not do well at the larger schools, do poorly on the boards, and will probably have a poorer medical knowledge than those that excell, but will also be taking DO residency spots. The actual number of these "dumber" students will be greater than the total number of new students these branch schools are going to be graduating each year. And we can't generalize the students at the branch schools as being less knowledgable since they haven't graduated a class yet and haven't taken boards yet. We (large DO schools) should be more concerned about improving our own bottom 10% and less about new schools opening.

 

[Dr.LVStripper]

I am attending one of these new campuses that some of you seem to like to call "diploma mills". I can tell you this is no diploma mill. TUNV may have Touro in the name, but it is considered a seperate school with seperate accredidation and individuality. I would never knock on any other school, MD or DO, and it shows bad form when someone else does. Have respect for where you go and that we are going to be doctors. That is an amazing thing. And for those of you who feel like you have to talk **** about other people's schools... "punch your clown" to relieve your tension and anger and just keep your comments to yourself. 😀

"When trying to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you", Anonymous

 

[DrFeelgoodDO]

Thanks for all the responses to this thread. I don't blame you guys for being so pro-DO that you miss the big picture. And that's because you guys aren't even med students yet. I am offended by the comment that I am insecure about my DO and that I should have been in MD. On the contrary. I am proud of my DO education. Because of it, I better than most of the residents in my program, an allopathic program. And as far as people not caring where you go to med school, thats 100% correct for pateints. But someday you too will be applying for residency and program director WILL for sure care.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

This is by far one of the most valuable and contributing threads I have seen in a long time. 👍 As for me, I love my future school.... new, yet proven curriculum... small class size.... changes being made if students have a complaint... and as you can see tough admissions standards. I'm turning down big names to go to this "diploma mill" as you have called it

 

[medic170]

All you people in the sattellite schools may as well just drop out of your diploma mills now and forget being a successful physician since, even if you make it through school and get your manufactured diploma, you will not get a good residency. 🙄

 

[DOtobe]

A question:
If a group of physicians that was completely unaffiliated with one of the DO schools were to start a new school, would you call it a diploma mill? My guess is no, so why call the new schools diploma mills just because they happen to be affiliated with an already existing DO school?

I think we should be happy that there are more DO schools opening up. We need more schools to produce more DO's so people become more familiar with osteopathic medicine.

And I am an MS-4, not a pre-MS1, and I still share the same opinion as the others who have replied to this thread.

 

[cooldreams]

A question:
If a group of physicians that was completely unaffiliated with one of the DO schools were to start a new school, would you call it a diploma mill? My guess is no, so why call the new schools diploma mills just because they happen to be affiliated with an already existing DO school?

I think we should be happy that there are more DO schools opening up. We need more schools to produce more DO's so people become more familiar with osteopathic medicine.

And I am an MS-4, not a pre-MS1, and I still share the same opinion as the others who have replied to this thread.

i think the main issue here is that this may be seen as diluting the do philosophy. wether it does or not remains to be seen, but typically greater quanitity = lesser quality...

and i do think that if the random group of docs got together for a new school, it would be received the same way here...

i would also like to say that i do look forward to the increasing number of DOs out there. 👍

 

[ny skindoc]

If schools think that expanding themselves in this fashion is a good business decision and increases revenue,and they keep doing it the main concern would be that when the economy turns around and people see good alternatives to med school it may be difficult to attract quality applicants to fill all the spots that were created,schools will not cut their classes they will do whatever is needed to keep them filled.

 

[dr.z]

I would like to see more DOs, and I don't think branch campuses are any problem. For instance doesn't UMDNJ have more than one campus? Is that something to be looked down on or is it o.k. because it is a allopathic school?

There are UC in Cali that have many campuses, aren't they almost a satellite? They all have their own reputation because they have been established for quite some time, but aren't they satellite campus?

What a person ends up doing after graduating depends on the person too. Even people that graduate from Carribean schools make it back here and some still do well. So I have learned through the application process to respect anyone pursuing their career goals whether it be Carribean or any branch campus DO. In the end they are all physicians.

 

[Geronimo]

If schools think that expanding themselves in this fashion is a good business decision and increases revenue,and they keep doing it the main concern would be that when the economy turns around and people see good alternatives to med school it may be difficult to attract quality applicants to fill all the spots that were created,schools will not cut their classes they will do whatever is needed to keep them filled.

A worthy point. I do have concerns that there could be "too few" qualified applicants but they will just open up the schools to more foreign applicants if that happens which probably isn't a good thing either. None-the-less, the economy has been on an upswing lately and yet we still see the number of applicants continue to rise. People have suggested that future interest in medical school is likely to increase due to the increasing likelihood of tort reform, insurance restructuring, and continued "high job satisfaction" among physicians. However, if the Gov't takes over healthcare, kiss future doctor quality good-bye. Who would want to go to medical school so you can let the government dictate how you practice medicine? I personally would still go, but it would be a less inviting environment.

 

[DOtobe]

BTW, there's another discussion on this in the Osteopathic forum, in case you want to read some more opinions:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=156514

 

[dinabell22]

What I was trying to do was show those people that are skeptical of the education provided at branch schools that there are plenty of students that do not do well at the larger schools, do poorly on the boards, and will probably have a poorer medical knowledge than those that excell, but will also be taking DO residency spots. The actual number of these "dumber" students will be greater than the total number of new students these branch schools are going to be graduating each year. And we can't generalize the students at the branch schools as being less knowledgable since they haven't graduated a class yet and haven't taken boards yet. We (large DO schools) should be more concerned about improving our own bottom 10% and less about new schools opening.

You know,

Instead of positng nasty remarks about our student leaders and complaining about the stupid position you have been given, maybe you should talk to those you have a problem with and get out of researching this situation. I think you are basically slapping your class members in the face by talking bad about them. Maybe you should just resign your whole position if they give you "stupid jobs".

 

[OnMyWayThere]

I would like to see more DOs, and I don't think branch campuses are any problem. For instance doesn't UMDNJ have more than one campus? Is that something to be looked down on or is it o.k. because it is a allopathic school?

There are UC in Cali that have many campuses, aren't they almost a satellite? They all have their own reputation because they have been established for quite some time, but aren't they satellite campus?

What a person ends up doing after graduating depends on the person too. Even people that graduate from Carribean schools make it back here and some still do well. So I have learned through the application process to respect anyone pursuing their career goals whether it be Carribean or any branch campus DO. In the end they are all physicians.

Only the first UC is a real university... all the other ones supplying the demand of a UC education are just diploma mills

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Since this same discussion is going on with others in the Pre-DO forum, let me post what I have concluded over there. Only the first UC school is considered a real university... all the other ones are diploma mills. How dare they open up new branches to supply the demand for their education? Wow, this thread is so pointless 😴 😴

 

[calichik]

Only the first UC is a real university... all the other ones supplying the demand of a UC education are just diploma mills

hey....I went to a UC and I am proud of my diploma 👍

 

[LukeWhite]

I'm afraid you are the one with the chip on the shoulder. You sit here, condemning us, yet you have no cold hard facts. You voice your ill-informed dissent based on rumor and inuendo. I would be willing to bet that our teaching faculty here in Bradenton could outperform your's anyday. Hell, half of them came from Erie (Erie's brightest) and the other half from USF (including the acting anatomy director). We have an ESTABLISHED program in a new building and location. I could see you being concerned over all NEW schools, where nothing is established, but your concerns are unwarranted over branch campuses. Not only that, but there are countless thousands of students who aren't accepted into med school every year. There only fault is that they are 0.1 GPA unit below the average and had a bad interview. Does 0.1 GPA less make you less able to be a good physician? How about a few points on the MCAT? (BTW, the whole low MCAT scores being accepted is a BS rumor- until you can prove it otherwise). Now, I was also accepted to other schools, none of which were branch campuses (and none that had as successful a program as PBL at LECOM)...would going there make me a better doctor? No. You need to stop thinking about yourself and start thinking about the patients of the future. There is going to be a huge doctor shortage as the baby boomers get older. Somebody needs to take care of them. If we don't expand our profession now, then many people will be out of luck when they need help the most. So, in summary, GROW UP!


Joey
MS-I LECOM-Bradenton

You're not doing anything to improve my opinion of the applicant pool at these scools.

My posts are pretty unequivocal in stating that I think that these schools are a good thing, and I've argued that this is so because there's going to be a huge doctor shortage. That sounds suspiciously like what you said. Are you just so busy excelling at your top-of-the-line school that you can't be bothered to read or respond to the points people actually make?

While I'm all for satellite schools, and have argued for more of them more places than in this forum, I'm disturbed by the tendency of their students to argue that they're every bit the equivalent of schools that have been around a century, that their applicant pool is no less talented because of MCAT scores. What's the average MCAT at your school? I think it's around 24 here, and I'd be surprised if yours is higher. The MCAT average for a top school is generally in in the high thirties. That's a difference of about four standard deviations between the satellite school and the top schools. Four! That's a lot--we're talking left versus right tail-of-the-bell-curve. And this on a test that primarily tests critical thinking rather than knowledge, and that correlates very well with preclinical med school performance, and somewhat with step I boards.

I could go on at length about this, but won't because it's pointless--the vast majority of folks at less esteemed schools, my own included, will make very good doctors, and a few will be spectacular. But if you think getting a date to the dance makes you prom queen, you need to temper that rah-rah-home-team outlook a bit. Nothing prevents an individual from the worst school in the nation being every bit as good as an individual from the best, though it will require a lot more effort. However, when you look at general applicant pools and practice routes, it's unequivocal: better schools attract better teachers and better students. I'm mystified that anyone could argue otherwise, and more than a little disturbed that anyone cares.

 

[Docgeorge]

If the branch schools were set up like UC I wouldn't have a problem with it. The problem that I have is that we are popping up branch schools for proprietary reasons, and having a single college within its halls. If there were actually multiple colleges with in these new schools and a graduate program that was actually producing good quality research and receiving good funding form multiple sources it would be great. One of the things that we as a profession need to stop doing is opening up schools that rely mostly on student tuition for its operating capital. The medical profession has a whole has gone down this road before (1910) and it led to some dire repercussions.

The problem that will really plague the profession in the near future is our lack of research and meaningful contribution to the advancement of medicine. We can no longer claim to have a monopoly on preventive medicine and the holistic approach to the patient, and as more and more allopathic medical schools incorporate biomechanics and manipulation into it's curriculum we will have lost a monopoly on that as well.

With out more osteopathic schools getting involved in research and offering medical students? electives that broaden their horizons our profession, at least in my opinion is in danger of becoming irrelevant. In this day of Evidence Based Medicine research is not a luxury that we (Osteopathic Physicians) can relegate to the back burner, it is a matter of long term survival. Fortunately some schools are seeing this and slowly trying to increase their research faculty and funding and also developing multiple streams of funding to operate. It will be tough going for a while until the economy gets going and a corresponding increase in the public demand for medical advancement forces the governmental purse strings open. Until then we have to get by as best as we can. I'm completely for growth if it is done in a measured and thoughtful manner which will benefit our whole profession not just a few schools and a few individuals.


Sorry for the rant 😀

 

[Docgeorge]

If the branch schools were set up like UC I wouldn't have a problem with it. The problem that I have is that we are popping up branch schools for proprietary reasons, and having a single college within its halls. If there were actually multiple colleges with in these new schools and a graduate program that was actually producing good quality research and receiving good funding form multiple sources it would be great. One of the things that we as a profession need to stop doing is opening up schools that rely mostly on student tuition for its operating capital. The medical profession has a whole has gone down this road before (1910) and it led to some dire repercussions.

The problem that will really plague the profession in the near future is our lack of research and meaningful contribution to the advancement of medicine. We can no longer claim to have a monopoly on preventive medicine and the holistic approach to the patient, and as more and more allopathic medical schools incorporate biomechanics and manipulation into it's curriculum we will have lost a monopoly on that as well.

With out more osteopathic schools getting involved in research and offering medical students? electives that broaden their horizons our profession, at least in my opinion is in danger of becoming irrelevant. In this day of Evidence Based Medicine research is not a luxury that we (Osteopathic Physicians) can relegate to the back burner, it is a matter of long term survival. Fortunately some schools are seeing this and slowly trying to increase their research faculty and funding and also developing multiple streams of funding to operate. It will be tough going for a while until the economy gets going and a corresponding increase in the public demand for medical advancement forces the governmental purse strings open. Until then we have to get by as best as we can. I'm completely for growth if it is done in a measured and thoughtful manner which will benefit our whole profession not just a few schools and a few individuals.


Sorry for the rant.

 

[docbill]

This topic is going on in both pre-DO and DO forum.. and I am not following either one of these. The topic is not that important.. everyone has to do same exams.. and new schools have to start somewhere. VCOM is new and has been getting great reviews.

Man it would be so cool to be the first graduating class of one of there new COM.

 

[Boomer]

So, where exactly are the graduates of these new "satellite" programs supposed to do their "Osteopathic Internships?"

Last I checked (04, when I graduated) there weren't enough spots to accomodate all DO grads....are they opening more internship/residency opportunities with these branches? Hell no. Why do something like taking care of those already within "the family" when you can dilute the matriculant pool by opening up some 600 or so more positions?

 

[Docgeorge]

This topic is going on in both pre-DO and DO forum.. and I am not following either one of these. The topic is not that important.. everyone has to do same exams.. and new schools have to start somewhere. VCOM is new and has been getting great reviews.

Man it would be so cool to be the first graduating class of one of there new COM.

If we are opening new schools it should be like VCOM, closely affilated with a research university that offers undergraduate and graduate programs.

 

[docbill]

Oh yeah.. good point.. I forgot to mention that part... I think that is why MSU and NJ and Texas are so highly valued. KCUMB, UNECOM, and Midwestern are trying to get more involved. (of course state schools are way more advanced... private schools have a different goal.. and are limited in their cabilities to do research). I am surprised that NSU is not more involved in research activity. They have the resources and the different schools