DO School "Reputations"

[GraysonK]

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I read alot about comparing different medical schools, and as Im starting to compare acceptances Im having a difficult time knowing exactly what I need to be looking for in my ideal school beyond a feeling of "fitting in."

Currently, Im aware of the information book supplied by AACOM- which supplies little information beyond what the program is like.

I have looked over the match lists for schools, but this is alot like reading the raw data, its very disorganized and hard to take away trends from.

Ive also found the AOA match rates for various schools, which as far as I can tell is the only resource that really helps determine HOW WELL a school prepares you.

Is there any comprehensive list that talks about board review scores, or pass rates, anything like this that could help me determine which schools are, dare I say, better?

 

[ChiDO]

1. Match lists are useless.
2. School doesn't matter, what matters is how much effort you put into doing well.
3. Matching again depends on YOUR effort to do well on the boards. All schools teach the same things the first 2 years, all have "above average" scores.
4. Pick a school based on: location, price, and if you like it.
5. Going to School X over School Y does not magically get you better board scores nor a better residency; only your hard work matters.

 

[123165]

1. Match lists are useless.
2. School doesn't matter, what matters is how much effort you put into doing well.
3. Matching again depends on YOUR effort to do well on the boards. All schools teach the same things the first 2 years, all have "above average" scores.
4. Pick a school based on: location, price, and if you like it.
5. Going to School X over School Y does not magically get you better board scores nor a better residency; only your hard work matters.

I think location only matters in the sense that you should go to school in the area you plan to do your residency. You are only there for 2 years, so why is location such a big deal? Additionally, personal performance is more important than name, but saying that the school does not matter is a gross overstatement in my opinion. Also, how can all schools have above average scores, isn't this false by definition? Maybe I was just missing the sarcasm.

I don't think that attending any American medical school will be a disadvantage; however, some of the more prestigious schools do offer advantages to their students.

I agree though, match lists are more-or-less useless.

 

[ArsenalEPL4Life]

I am also a pre-med in the same boat. However, I still feel that regardless of what people say about match-lists, they have to have some sort of indication on how strong a school's program is. I know everyone is quick to say they are useless and pointless, and medical school is all about 'what you put into it'. If thats the case, why do people always say 'try and go to one of the more established programs', shouldn't everyone just try to get into the most inexpenisve school if they are all the same? Now, I understand that match lists dont tell you what everyones first choice was....say for example everyone wanted FP or IM and that was all the list was, then it would be an excellent match list for that school. However, I think that looking at a match list such as KCUMB's for example, and seeing how there are so many students matching into such a wide variety of fields says something about the school. Also, just using KCUMB for an example, they have so many people matching into Orthopedic Surgery and General Surgery that they must have a strong program for those that are interested in doing surgery. Thats the way I look at match lists at least, I dont know if I am wrong or right, but I dont see how they are useless.

 

[beckhunter116]

Ok I think people say go into a more established program b/c if it came down to ranking people for a program if two students are pretty much even and student A comes from a program that they know vs. student B from a brand new school the program may choose student A on this. And that established programs probably have their stuff together for your clinical years...another current thread on here goes into detail on that.

Again, it seems like you are trying to take data and make it fit the scenario you want. You are interested in surgery, KCUMB had a recent match of a good number of surgery matches, so you assume they must have a magic class that makes people more likely to match into surgery. EVERY medical school in the country DO or MD has curriculum for primary care...people choose to match into whatever they want--what electives and audition rotations are for. It could also be possible that KCUMB attracts a variety of students; hence they have a varied match list. Or it could be 10 other reasons.

The point is you will never know. What if this year does the match and no one gets surgery? Will you give up hope that you can match based on what others are capable of? I would hope that you would have faith in your abilities and do everything in YOUR power to make YOUR match be a successful one.

 

[csmittyB]

Also, just using KCUMB for an example, they have so many people matching into Orthopedic Surgery and General Surgery that they must have a strong program for those that are interested in doing surgery. Thats the way I look at match lists at least

So what? You use KCUMB for surgical examples when DMU-COM actually has a surgical skills lab and KCUMB doesn't. However, the 2008 match list for KCUMB has almost 2x as many people doing GSurg compared to DMU-COM. Wouldn't you assume that DMU-COM would do a better job at producing surgeons?

 

[bth7]

I read alot about comparing different medical schools, and as Im starting to compare acceptances Im having a difficult time knowing exactly what I need to be looking for in my ideal school beyond a feeling of "fitting in."

Currently, Im aware of the information book supplied by AACOM- which supplies little information beyond what the program is like.

I have looked over the match lists for schools, but this is alot like reading the raw data, its very disorganized and hard to take away trends from.

Ive also found the AOA match rates for various schools, which as far as I can tell is the only resource that really helps determine HOW WELL a school prepares you.

Is there any comprehensive list that talks about board review scores, or pass rates, anything like this that could help me determine which schools are, dare I say, better?

DO Schools older than 25 years = a plus.
DO Schools that receive state funding = a plus.
DO Schools associated with a state university system = a plus.
DO Schools with many residency programs = a plus.

New DO schools = mixed.
Privately owned DO schools = mixed.
DO Schools with no affiliated residency programs = a minus.

DO Schools with clinical faculty departments, i.e. a "department of surgery," a "department of internal medicine," a "department of obstetrics" = a plus.
DO Schools with no clinical faculty departments = a big red flag.

bth

 

[Trogghunter]

DO Schools older than 25 years = a plus.
DO Schools that receive state funding = a plus.
DO Schools associated with a state university system = a plus.
DO Schools with many residency programs = a plus.

this is very true, but also keep in mind that many medical schools will stress their curriculum differently. For example, UVA Med focuses more on an intense academic curriculum, while VCU Med focuses very heavily on clinical experience that is supplemented with a rigorous academic curriculum.

you may have to speak to someone who has actually gone through the program, but I think that some Osteopathic schools are worth more than others on paper.

 

[DRMRL]

so what would everyone's top five prestigious schools for D.O. be? jw 😀

 

[Bacchus]

Pcom
ccom
kcom
dmu
nycom

 

[Chocolate Bear]

Pcom
ccom
kcom
dmu
nycom

the busy med student doesn't even want to include a disclaimer, like "this list is not comprehensive, nor do I know everything about all schools, nor do I care...this is just opinion..."??? 😉 😀

lots of other very solid DO schools out there, and even some on your list I've seen many former students have biiiiiiiiiiiiggggg problems with. Just saying...

 

[ShyRem]

What your top schools are depends a LOT on what your priorities are.

As for match lists, it depends on what the STUDENTS want. Student from UNE last year turned DOWN Hopkins anesthesiology because there wasn't good skiing nearby. I kid you not. Offered a pre-match at freakin' Hopkins in anesthesiology and said 'no thanks'. That student's priorities were obviously not the name. They wanted a life as well as an awesome program. They pre-matched somewhere else and they're very happy.

I would look more at board pass rates and take a good look through all the discussion threads and "class of" threads. You'll find more information in there from current students that will help you see the inside scoop on these schools and what they do for you to help you reach your goals.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Just like what Shy said, the best DO school for one person is not the same for another. If you put a preference on location, the one closest to you is the best. If you put emphasis on price, the cheapest one is the best, etc. However, as far as just simple 'prestige' you are talking about ... the older, the better, etc:

KCOM
CCOM
PCOM
KCUMB

 

[Siggy]

Somone is forgetting

"Southern California=+ infinity"

Therefore, the top medical school is COMP because it's in So Cal.

/only really knows about COMP in depth and a few other schools via interviews.
//Doesn't matter because of Southern farking California!

 

[DRMRL]

I agree with jagger and shy. My tops are probably: (no order) PCOM, OSU-COM (no one has them on their list...), KCUMB, DMU, and CCOM. 😀

 

[JanikeyDoc]

What your top schools are depends a LOT on what your priorities are.

As for match lists, it depends on what the STUDENTS want. Student from UNE last year turned DOWN Hopkins anesthesiology because there wasn't good skiing nearby. I kid you not. Offered a pre-match at freakin' Hopkins in anesthesiology and said 'no thanks'. That student's priorities were obviously not the name. They wanted a life as well as an awesome program. They pre-matched somewhere else and they're very happy.

I would look more at board pass rates and take a good look through all the discussion threads and "class of" threads. You'll find more information in there from current students that will help you see the inside scoop on these schools and what they do for you to help you reach your goals.

I know someone who turned down medicine at Hopkins to go to medical school in Australia in Sydney because Sydney has better beaches and coffee. I myself have decided that I might just remain in Australia rather than return to the States.

 

[bth7]

Texas-COM
PCOM
CCOM
KCUMB
OU-COM

A close 2nd tier
UNDMJ
MSU-COM

 

[DRMRL]

I know someone who turned down Hopkins for OSU-COM. That illuminated the fact that it really matters where YOU feel most comfortable. Best of luck to you. 😀

 

[JaggerPlate]

Texas-COM
PCOM
CCOM
KCUMB
OU-COM

A close 2nd tier
UNDMJ
MSU-COM

No KCOM love huh?? I had a faculty tell me during an interview (won't say which school) that KCOM, CCOM, and TCOM are the DO tops.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I know someone who turned down the chance to be a real life House MD, for Rocky Vista. True story ....

 

[Spooner13]

Here's something that can actually affect your day to day in medical school in a big way:

mandatory attendance

If you actually learn by going to class, that's awesome, and this won't be an issue for you wherever you go. However, if you do not learn that way, going to class could be a huge waste of time. This can be a very big deal because that's like losing several hours a day. For me, going to class is like throwing time down the drain.

So if you are like me, you should definitely consider this when choosing a school. It can have a gigantic impact on your education.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Here's something that can actually affect your day to day in medical school in a big way:

mandatory attendance

If you actually learn by going to class, that's awesome, and this won't be an issue for you wherever you go. However, if you do not learn that way, going to class could be a huge waste of time. This can be a very big deal because that's like losing several hours a day. For me, going to class is like throwing time down the drain.

So if you are like me, you should definitely consider this when choosing a school. It can have a gigantic impact on your education.

See, again though ... personal preference. Most schools have like a 70% required (that do have requirements), so I know that I personally wouldn't care about that. I don't think I'll skip class more than 30% of the time (never did in undergrad) so it's a wash for me.

 

[Siggy]

...and some schools "count" watching the lecture recording as attending. One of the issues with required attendance is that there is a legal clock hour requirment for medical students that schools must certify that you have attended. That number is 4000 hours in California.

 

[bth7]

No KCOM love huh?? I had a faculty tell me during an interview (won't say which school) that KCOM, CCOM, and TCOM are the DO tops.

Well, I certainly agree about TCOM and CCOM.

 

[spicedmanna]

So what? You use KCUMB for surgical examples when DMU-COM actually has a surgical skills lab and KCUMB doesn't. However, the 2008 match list for KCUMB has almost 2x as many people doing GSurg compared to DMU-COM. Wouldn't you assume that DMU-COM would do a better job at producing surgeons?

There are two points you can glean from that:

1) Surgical skills lab and other fancy crap they throw at you during your pre-clinical years have minimal impact. Most of the time it's just good marketing.

2) Match lists tell you more about students in a given class than the school. There are lots of factors at play that you can't decipher from just looking at it. It would be helpful, when reading the lists, to understand the motivations of the students and what led them to secure their matches.

Personally, I think the most important quality of a given school is their rotation sites. If a school has poor quality rotation sites or ones that are highly variable, it can make things harder. Location of the rotation sites matter for some people, too. Another factor to consider, if it's important to you, is how centralized your core rotations are. What I mean by that is, some sites have all or most of the core rotations on site, while others have you driving to different locations, etc. Just some factors to think about.

There are other important factors, too, such as location of the school and cost. Reputation can be a factor, but I would put it pretty far down the list of importance.

 

[MossPoh]

Rotation sites are very important but it seems to be difficult to get solid information about them. We have a similar rotation set-up as many DO schools and it seems the "best" rotation sites aren't the most popular. It is almost all based on locale over education. I mention that several of the faculty mentioned surgery, IM, or whatever being weak at a certain locale and many people didn't even know of it. As a premed coming in, it is that much more difficult to know much more than whether you like the general region rotations are in.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Rotation sites are very important but it seems to be difficult to get solid information about them. We have a similar rotation set-up as many DO schools and it seems the "best" rotation sites aren't the most popular. It is almost all based on locale over education. I mention that several of the faculty mentioned surgery, IM, or whatever being weak at a certain locale and many people didn't even know of it. As a premed coming in, it is that much more difficult to know much more than whether you like the general region rotations are in.

I feel like it's super, super hard to really figure out as a pre-med what 3/4 years at schools are really like. The number of people on SDN who start complaining about it in their 3/4 years are a testament to this. It's not that these people are foolish or didn't do the best they could to research, it's just hard to nail down. You can ask the schools, but then you get the schools opinion on it, and you can ask students, but it seems like a LOT of people have differing experiences (I've had people from the same school tell me their rotations sucked and were super hard to set up and other students in the same class tell me they were great and easy).

 

[JaggerPlate]

Well, I certainly agree about TCOM and CCOM.

Why not KCOM, if you don't mind me asking??

 

[EmersonAnne]

So what? You use KCUMB for surgical examples when DMU-COM actually has a surgical skills lab and KCUMB doesn't. However, the 2008 match list for KCUMB has almost 2x as many people doing GSurg compared to DMU-COM. Wouldn't you assume that DMU-COM would do a better job at producing surgeons?

I'm biased because I go to KCUMB, but I'll tell you the reason that KCUMB has a good match list has more to do with the training the students get the first two years. The reason I say that is because students are on a systems curriculum which focuses almost entirely on clinical presentations.

Pathology lab is morning report. The class is split up into groups and we show up for our lab and what happens is that one of our classmates presents a case just as they would do for their attending on rotations, complete with X-rays, histo, gross pictures, lab values, etc. The rest of the class has to diagnose (individually write down a diagnosis). This is what our path lab is and we do this from the fourth week of school on for the entire two years, so we learn how to read all these tests, how to play detective and rule things in and out based on the labs, and how to come up with differentials and a diagnosis (even though half the time, we clearly have no clue what we're doing, but I'm told that over time, practice makes us much, much better).

We had our first patient simulator interaction on the second day of school and our first standardized patient interaction on the 6th week of school. We learned how to write a SOAP note the second week of school (and were tested on it). I have friends at other schools who haven't done any of that yet. We also have opportunities to do sports physicals in the city with our professors on the weekends, so we actually do interact with real non-standardized patients. We also have a program called Score 1, where we go out to the elementary schools around the area and do physicals for the kids. We get to screen them for vision, hearing, dental, and the actual physical assessments. I got to do a full physical -- heart and lung sounds, ears, eyes, reflexes, spine, etc., etc. a month after school began.

Because of all this, from what I've been told by current third and fourth years both at KCUMB and at one of the MD schools here in town, when third years hit the wards, they're doing things they've done a 100 times over (and been graded on), so they shine. Their clinical grades are good and they walk away with good LORs to apply for residency.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I'm biased because I go to KCUMB, but I'll tell you the reason that KCUMB has a good match list has more to do with the training the students get the first two years. The reason I say that is because students are on a systems curriculum which focuses almost entirely on clinical presentations.

Pathology lab is morning report. The class is split up into groups and we show up for our lab and what happens is that one of our classmates presents a case just as they would do for their attending on rotations, complete with X-rays, histo, gross pictures, lab values, etc. The rest of the class has to diagnose (individually write down a diagnosis). This is what our path lab is and we do this from the fourth week of school on for the entire two years, so we learn how to read all these tests, how to play detective and rule things in and out based on the labs, and how to come up with differentials and a diagnosis (even though half the time, we clearly have no clue what we're doing, but I'm told that over time, practice makes us much, much better).

We had our first patient simulator interaction on the second day of school and our first standardized patient interaction on the 6th week of school. We learned how to write a SOAP note the second week of school (and were tested on it). I have friends at other schools who haven't done any of that yet. We also have opportunities to do sports physicals in the city with our professors on the weekends, so we actually do interact with real non-standardized patients. We also have a program called Score 1, where we go out to the elementary schools around the area and do physicals for the kids. We get to screen them for vision, hearing, dental, and the actual physical assessments. I got to do a full physical -- heart and lung sounds, ears, eyes, reflexes, spine, etc., etc. a month after school began.

Because of all this, from what I've been told by current third and fourth years both at KCUMB and at one of the MD schools here in town, when third years hit the wards, they're doing things they've done a 100 times over (and been graded on), so they shine. Their clinical grades are good and they walk away with good LORs to apply for residency.

I thought you went to an MD school???

 

[EmersonAnne]

I thought you went to an MD school???

Why did you think that?

 

[JaggerPlate]

Why did you think that?

We were talking in the 'MD into AOA residency' thread, and for some reason I could have sworn you said you were an MD student who was for it. Maybe you were citing other students or I'm just confused or something.

 

[EmersonAnne]

We were talking in the 'MD into AOA residency' thread, and for some reason I could have sworn you said you were an MD student who was for it. Maybe you were citing other students or I'm just confused or something.

Yeah I think you're confused. I'm a KCUMB student.

 

[ILikeFood]

Go to the school that you think you will be happiest (and thus more productive) at

 

[Handy388]

What your top schools are depends a LOT on what your priorities are.

As for match lists, it depends on what the STUDENTS want. Student from UNE last year turned DOWN Hopkins anesthesiology because there wasn't good skiing nearby. I kid you not. Offered a pre-match at freakin' Hopkins in anesthesiology and said 'no thanks'. That student's priorities were obviously not the name. They wanted a life as well as an awesome program. They pre-matched somewhere else and they're very happy.

I would look more at board pass rates and take a good look through all the discussion threads and "class of" threads. You'll find more information in there from current students that will help you see the inside scoop on these schools and what they do for you to help you reach your goals.

I found it hard to believe that hopkins anesthesiology need to offer prematch at all, must not be that good of a program then.

 

[Bacchus]

I found it hard to believe that hopkins anesthesiology need to offer prematch at all, must not be that good of a program then.

Any program that has DOs in it is horrible.

 

[Handy388]

Any program that has DOs in it is horrible.

DO doesn't make a program horrible, desparate enough to offer prematch is an indication though.

 

[TeamZissou]

DO doesn't make a program horrible, desparate enough to offer prematch is an indication though.

I got what you were saying Handy, I think he has a test on monday so he is just stressed.




As far as reputation goes you can't go wrong with some of the more established schools that people have listed. Though from what I understand TCOM has made a very good case for itself lately so it should be considered as well.

 

[spicedmanna]

I'm biased because I go to KCUMB, but I'll tell you the reason that KCUMB has a good match list has more to do with the training the students get the first two years. The reason I say that is because students are on a systems curriculum which focuses almost entirely on clinical presentations.

Pathology lab is morning report. The class is split up into groups and we show up for our lab and what happens is that one of our classmates presents a case just as they would do for their attending on rotations, complete with X-rays, histo, gross pictures, lab values, etc. The rest of the class has to diagnose (individually write down a diagnosis). This is what our path lab is and we do this from the fourth week of school on for the entire two years, so we learn how to read all these tests, how to play detective and rule things in and out based on the labs, and how to come up with differentials and a diagnosis (even though half the time, we clearly have no clue what we're doing, but I'm told that over time, practice makes us much, much better).

We had our first patient simulator interaction on the second day of school and our first standardized patient interaction on the 6th week of school. We learned how to write a SOAP note the second week of school (and were tested on it). I have friends at other schools who haven't done any of that yet. We also have opportunities to do sports physicals in the city with our professors on the weekends, so we actually do interact with real non-standardized patients. We also have a program called Score 1, where we go out to the elementary schools around the area and do physicals for the kids. We get to screen them for vision, hearing, dental, and the actual physical assessments. I got to do a full physical -- heart and lung sounds, ears, eyes, reflexes, spine, etc., etc. a month after school began.

Because of all this, from what I've been told by current third and fourth years both at KCUMB and at one of the MD schools here in town, when third years hit the wards, they're doing things they've done a 100 times over (and been graded on), so they shine. Their clinical grades are good and they walk away with good LORs to apply for residency.

Eh, the first two years at KCUMB are very overrated in my opinion. My thinking closely mirrored your own, not long ago, which I attribute to simple inexperience. However, now that I'm out there actually doing rotations, I see that all that junk you mentioned didn't really amount to very much at all. It was somewhat helpful I suppose, but nowhere did I feel that it gave me an advantage, especially since I was already about 2 months behind most of my colleagues because KCUMB just happens to start rotations later than most, if not all schools. Indeed, I actually felt significantly impaired as compared to my more experienced colleagues from different schools when I first started, but now that I've been rotating for a few months, I'm catching up.

It's essentially BS, in my opinion, that KCUMB prepares you better for rotations than other schools. Everything that KCUMB does, I'm thinking other schools do also. With some exceptions, I'm fairly confident that schools closely mirror each other for the first two years. Did I feel prepared? Yeah, I did. However, I busted my butt and hit the ground running as soon as rotations started because I knew I was behind compared to nearly everyone else at my level. I spent more hours on the floor and never turned down an opportunity to learn or do more, so that I could learn faster. It paid off. If there is one thing that gets you noticed, it's that. Even if you started out better prepared because of the first two years, it will not necessarily provide with an advantage for very long, if at all. The main thing is reading when you can, especially about your patients and really demonstrating an interest in learning every day. What you get out of rotations depends a lot on you and how hard you work.

 

[EmersonAnne]

Eh, the first two years at KCUMB are very overrated in my opinion. My thinking closely mirrored your own, not long ago, which I attribute to simple inexperience. However, now that I'm out there actually doing rotations, I see that all that junk you mentioned didn't really amount to very much at all. It was somewhat helpful I suppose, but nowhere did I feel that it gave me an advantage, especially since I was already about 3 months behind most of my colleagues because KCUMB just happens to start rotations later than most, if not all schools. Indeed, I actually felt significantly impaired as compared to my more experienced colleagues from different schools when I first started, but now that I've been rotating for a few months, I'm catching up.

It's essentially BS, in my opinion, that KCUMB prepares you better for rotations than other schools. Everything that KCUMB does, I'm thinking other schools do also. With some exceptions, I'm fairly confident that schools closely mirror each other for the first two years. Did I feel prepared? Yeah, I did. However, I busted my butt and hit the ground running as soon as rotations started because I knew I was behind compared to nearly everyone else at my level. I spent more hours on the floor and never turned down an opportunity to learn or do more, so that I could learn faster. It paid off. If there is one thing that gets you noticed, it's that. Even if you started out better prepared because of the first two years, it will not necessarily provide with an advantage for very long, if at all. The main thing is reading when you can, especially about your patients and really demonstrating an interest in learning every day. What you get out of rotations depends a lot on you and how hard you work.

What is the reason for starting rotations so late?

 

[spicedmanna]

What is the reason for starting rotations so late?

I don't know why KCUMB starts late.

 

[JanikeyDoc]

I read alot about comparing different medical schools, and as Im starting to compare acceptances Im having a difficult time knowing exactly what I need to be looking for in my ideal school beyond a feeling of "fitting in."

Currently, Im aware of the information book supplied by AACOM- which supplies little information beyond what the program is like.

I have looked over the match lists for schools, but this is alot like reading the raw data, its very disorganized and hard to take away trends from.

Ive also found the AOA match rates for various schools, which as far as I can tell is the only resource that really helps determine HOW WELL a school prepares you.

Is there any comprehensive list that talks about board review scores, or pass rates, anything like this that could help me determine which schools are, dare I say, better?

The most important thing is your reputation when you go to medical school. I think any medical school in the US will serve you well provided you work hard, of course some may offer more opportunity than others. Going to a research based school might be more appropriate for someone interested in research for example. The main thing is if you want something good you have to work hard. I got my undergraduate degree from Stanford but worked with people over my career who went to schools that were much less "prestigious" so in the end we all wind up in the same place. I remember being incredibly fat headed when I graduated but I met a guy who went to Princeton in my first job who everyone hated and did not get much respect at our company. The same goes with medical school, you have to work hard to get what you want.

 

[thesauce]

I'm biased because I go to KCUMB, but I'll tell you the reason that KCUMB has a good match list has more to do with the training the students get the first two years. The reason I say that is because students are on a systems curriculum which focuses almost entirely on clinical presentations.

Pathology lab is morning report. The class is split up into groups and we show up for our lab and what happens is that one of our classmates presents a case just as they would do for their attending on rotations, complete with X-rays, histo, gross pictures, lab values, etc. The rest of the class has to diagnose (individually write down a diagnosis). This is what our path lab is and we do this from the fourth week of school on for the entire two years, so we learn how to read all these tests, how to play detective and rule things in and out based on the labs, and how to come up with differentials and a diagnosis (even though half the time, we clearly have no clue what we're doing, but I'm told that over time, practice makes us much, much better).

We had our first patient simulator interaction on the second day of school and our first standardized patient interaction on the 6th week of school. We learned how to write a SOAP note the second week of school (and were tested on it). I have friends at other schools who haven't done any of that yet. We also have opportunities to do sports physicals in the city with our professors on the weekends, so we actually do interact with real non-standardized patients. We also have a program called Score 1, where we go out to the elementary schools around the area and do physicals for the kids. We get to screen them for vision, hearing, dental, and the actual physical assessments. I got to do a full physical -- heart and lung sounds, ears, eyes, reflexes, spine, etc., etc. a month after school began.

Because of all this, from what I've been told by current third and fourth years both at KCUMB and at one of the MD schools here in town, when third years hit the wards, they're doing things they've done a 100 times over (and been graded on), so they shine. Their clinical grades are good and they walk away with good LORs to apply for residency.

I'm at a school that really stresses early clinical exposure and I think it's a HUGE negative. You can learn to do a history and physical in a day. There's no point in learning them before you even have the basic science courses down to know why you're asking/doing things. It makes the maneuvers very superficial (i.e. "you do this, then you do this," instead of "you do this to look for (insert disease sign))." You can learn a soap note in 5 minutes. No point to learning it 2 years before you use it IMO.

Match lists are fun to look at, but they don't tell you much. Having seen 4 match lists come through my school (and going through the process myself now), you start to realize people aren't ranking residencies (or choosing specialties) for the reasons you think they might if you didn't know them. Also, premeds (and other medical students) often don't know what the good programs are. Case in point: we had one person match MD Anderson for radiation oncology 2 years ago and someone matched Michigan (also s great program) that same year. No one knew that MD Anderson is the top program in the nation and they only congratulated the Michigan guy. Also, rank lists change greatly from year to year. We had 2 people go for urology last year and 8 this year. I would take these lists as entertainment and potentially future alumni networking, but nothing more.

OP: Good luck with your decision. No one can make this choice but you and there will be pros and cons to all schools.

 

[stonewall22]

I read alot about comparing different medical schools, and as Im starting to compare acceptances Im having a difficult time knowing exactly what I need to be looking for in my ideal school beyond a feeling of "fitting in."

Currently, Im aware of the information book supplied by AACOM- which supplies little information beyond what the program is like.

I have looked over the match lists for schools, but this is alot like reading the raw data, its very disorganized and hard to take away trends from.

Ive also found the AOA match rates for various schools, which as far as I can tell is the only resource that really helps determine HOW WELL a school prepares you.

Is there any comprehensive list that talks about board review scores, or pass rates, anything like this that could help me determine which schools are, dare I say, better?

Best school?

School that you get into and want to attend. Without being a doctor yet, having spoken with numerous doctors about where to attend (MD's and DO's), when asked, which school should I attend?

They ALL asked, "Well, which one is the cheapest?"...followed by, "Did you like the school?"

In one of my interviews (to a school that offered acceptance), the interviewer said to me, "In 25 years of teaching medical school students, I would say the number one factor in their success, besides their motivation and desire to succeed, is their happiness with the location of the school."

Pretty interesting. The reality is all the medical schools in the US get good students. All the medical schools in the US are pretty good.

 

[EmersonAnne]

I'm at a school that really stresses early clinical exposure and I think it's a HUGE negative. You can learn to do a history and physical in a day. There's no point in learning them before you even have the basic science courses down to know why you're asking/doing things. It makes the maneuvers very superficial (i.e. "you do this, then you do this," instead of "you do this to look for (insert disease sign))." You can learn a soap note in 5 minutes. No point to learning it 2 years before you use it IMO.

Well, you can think that, but I disagree. I like that we're doing all this clinical stuff (and we actually DO use these skills, even in first year). It puts everything into context. For example, we're in the cardiopulmonary section right now and I've already done heart and lung exams. It makes it about more than just the black and white on the page. Applying the information in such a way is what helps me learn. I think that by the time 3rd year rolls around, this becomes second nature. Yes, you can learn a SOAP note and an H&P five minutes, but learning it and using it enough so that it's second nature to you are two different things.

 

[thesauce]

Well, you can think that, but I disagree. I like that we're doing all this clinical stuff (and we actually DO use these skills, even in first year). It puts everything into context. For example, we're in the cardiopulmonary section right now and I've already done heart and lung exams. It makes it about more than just the black and white on the page. Applying the information in such a way is what helps me learn. I think that by the time 3rd year rolls around, this becomes second nature. Yes, you can learn a SOAP note and an H&P five minutes, but learning it and using it enough so that it's second nature to you are two different things.

I felt similarly until I reached 3rd year and found out what a waste of time it was. It doesn't take 2 years to make an H&P or soap note second nature. It takes a month, tops.

I'm curious: how are you using these skills in first year?

 

[spicedmanna]

I felt similarly until I reached 3rd year and found out what a waste of time it was. It doesn't take 2 years to make an H&P or soap note second nature. It takes a month, tops.

Agreed. It sounds like we followed the same progression in our thinking process. All that "clinical" stuff in the first two years looks like it should be helpful later on, but it doesn't help much for rotations at all. Maybe it helps a little at the onset so that everything isn't so unfamiliar, but that's about it. You truly learn what need in the wards by doing it for real. There's a particular way each service wants you to do an H&P and to write a note anyway. What you learn in school will only go so far. You learn real fast when you are dealing with truly sick people, not actors or other medical students. Now add a real time crunch. Lastly, I think that all that clinical stuff makes more sense post-boards, when you finally begin to understand the pathophysiology and the pieces of the puzzle start coming together. It helps to know why you are doing what you are doing.

I also agree that spending too much time on "clinical" stuff can be harmful. I mean, it's good to have some because it does add context to what you are learning in the classroom and provides that certain satisfaction that 1st and 2nd year medical students long for, but if the curriculum favors it over the basic sciences, then they are wasting your precious time. I wish my school spent more time and depth on the hardcore basics, especially with respect to the big important ones: physiology, pharmacology, and pathology (pathophysiology in particular). I also found biochemistry and genetics to be weak. I found that when the time came for me to study for my boards, I had to work a bit harder because I felt that I lacked the necessary knowledge. Fortunately, my hard work paid off. I learned what I needed to know mostly by myself, not from classes. Thanks, Rapid Review.

 

[SolanoDoc]

I read alot about comparing different medical schools, and as Im starting to compare acceptances Im having a difficult time knowing exactly what I need to be looking for in my ideal school beyond a feeling of "fitting in."

Currently, Im aware of the information book supplied by AACOM- which supplies little information beyond what the program is like.

I have looked over the match lists for schools, but this is alot like reading the raw data, its very disorganized and hard to take away trends from.

Ive also found the AOA match rates for various schools, which as far as I can tell is the only resource that really helps determine HOW WELL a school prepares you.

Is there any comprehensive list that talks about board review scores, or pass rates, anything like this that could help me determine which schools are, dare I say, better?

I am going to a fairly new DO school and its graduates got into some pretty sweet residency programs so its really all about how hard you are willing to work.

 

[bth7]

I am going to a fairly new DO school and its graduates got into some pretty sweet residency programs so its really all about how hard you are willing to work.

It's all about how hard you are willing to work. AND its about your school supporting you along the way.

What did those students have to do to get into those "pretty sweet" residency programs? Will those spots still be available in 4 years? After the massive expansion in MD graduates that is currently ramping up? After Touro-CA lost many of their rotation sites in the Bay Area in the last 18 months?

Touro-CA will consistently put up road blocks to student success. They will make your life hell.

bth

 

[rc4ch]

Pcom
ccom
kcom
dmu
nycom

I can't believe you mentioned other schools other than PCOM there.

I'm gonna destroy you in Gears of War next time we play for that.