Do schools purposely over-accept interviewees?

[winterchill]

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Hey all. I was wondering relatively how many straight acceptances (as opposed to accepted off the wait list) a school will hand out in terms of its class size? School Z accepts 300 for a class size of 120. But those acceptances include accepted off the wait list, right?

I know how heavily schools use their wait list differs but I am wondering whether schools are off the bat offering more acceptances than seats (the overbooking analogy) or if they just happen to make more acceptance offers than their class size because as applicants declined they had to extend offers to the wait listed?

 

[274631]

Pretty sure it's the first one. They accept more initially expecting people to turn them down. Only after enough people have turned them down that their class size is too small do they go to the wait list. Although I think there are schools that rely more heavily on the wait list then others (I.e. accept less people right off the bat).

 

[Isha2018]

Yes, schools purposefully offer more acceptances than they have seats to guarantee they fill their entire class. This is because many people hold multiple acceptances and must ultimately turn down all but one offer. I believe they often have deposit dates to gauge how many will accept at certain points during the cycle. If not enough accept by Dec 15th, for example, they can offer more interviews or more acceptances to those interviewees who were tabled earlier.

It makes economic sense, especially for schools with state-mandates to fill all seats. Unfilled seats will still cost taxpayers. Undergraduate universities do the same thing because not every admitted student is going to matriculate.

Plus, schools with rolling admissions can tailor-make their class throughout the whole application cycle. I'm sure the adcoms have the whole "how many do we accept at any given point in the cycle?" down to a science.

 

[LizzyM]

Yes, schools do accept (not from the waitlist) more applicants than they have seats with the expectation that not every admitted applicant will accept the offer of admission. There is the opinion that one can recruit a stronger class by admitting applicants straight out and going head to head with peer institutions for applicants rather than accepting from the waitlist and trying to lure applicants away from a school that admitted them outright.

 

[nemo123]

I think almost all schools over-accept (by about 2-3 times) and turn to the waitlist when most of those people end up going elsewhere. There are probably only a handful of schools that will accept their exact class amount initially (like Mayo) and utilize their waitlist as one person drops out (and about 1/2 the class at Mayo will drop out, in which case 1/2 the class at Mayo comes from the waitlist).

 

[nemo123]

Yes, schools do accept (not from the waitlist) more applicants than they have seats with the expectation that not every admitted applicant will accept the offer of admission. There is the opinion that one can recruit a stronger class by admitting applicants straight out and going head to head with peer institutions for applicants rather than accepting from the waitlist and trying to lure applicants away from a school that admitted them outright.

This certainly seems to be true. It didn't seem that way for college, but med school applicants seem to favor schools that accepted them outright first than ones from which they were accepted off the waitlist. I think part it it has to do with attending second looks and since most waitlist movement begins post-May 15th, it's hard to pick a school that you didn't really get to visit (besides on interview day) over a school that pampered you during second look weekend.

On top of that, by May 15th, I'm sure you're all ready to head off to whichever school you chose (i.e. renting an apartment, filling out 100 forms, etc), and I think by May 15th, some applicants probably don't care too much the schools that waitlisted them.

 

[CarlosDanger]

There is the opinion that one can recruit a stronger class by admitting applicants straight out and going head to head with peer institutions for applicants rather than accepting from the waitlist and trying to lure applicants away from a school that admitted them outright.

This makes sense because a lot of schools will put applicants on "hold" after interview rather than waitlist them. Then they accept those people throughout the cycle as others withdraw, so they are never technically waitlisted. I guess those schools end up pulling fewer people off their formal wait list in the spring.

 

[winterchill]

Wow guys! Awesome feedback! I had been wondering about this for a while and couldn't really find a thread with the answer.

Yes, schools do accept (not from the waitlist) more applicants than they have seats with the expectation that not every admitted applicant will accept the offer of admission. There is the opinion that one can recruit a stronger class by admitting applicants straight out and going head to head with peer institutions for applicants rather than accepting from the waitlist and trying to lure applicants away from a school that admitted them outright.

You absolutely nailed my inner question. If schools care so much about yield, then why accept anyone out right at all? Couldn't you just accept only those you know would come and wait list those who you'd like to come but are unsure of and let LOIs guide to whom you extend offers of acceptance?

(It's a horrible thought but my mind goes to dark places. 🙂)

 

[kyamh]

...let LOIs guide to whom you extend offers of acceptance?

I don't know about you all, but I really don't like this idea. I have an interest in every school I submitted an application to - at least based on what I could learn from other students or the websites. Putting emphasis on LOIs is just going to make them into another hoop pre-meds have to jump through to stay competitive. Don't we already have enough boxes to check?

 

[Isha2018]

I don't know about you all, but I really don't like this idea. I have an interest in every school I submitted an application to - at least based on what I could learn from other students or the websites. Putting emphasis on LOIs is just going to make them into another hoop pre-meds have to jump through to stay competitive. Don't we already have enough boxes to check?

Yes, we do have enough boxes to check! Well said!

 

[nemo123]

I don't know about you all, but I really don't like this idea. I have an interest in every school I submitted an application to - at least based on what I could learn from other students or the websites. Putting emphasis on LOIs is just going to make them into another hoop pre-meds have to jump through to stay competitive. Don't we already have enough boxes to check?

LOIs seem to be another box we need to check for some schools. I feel that some things in this process are really unnecessary. College admissions doesn't compare at all this whole med school process. I mean who ever sent update letters or love letters to the colleges they applied to unless they became an Intel finalist?

I also hate it when interviewers will jab questions at me like why I would even attend their school since I come from the NYC area. (I've been asked this like 5 times already.) Seriously? In my head, I think, "Well, I paid over $500 to get to your school, and that's the kind of question I get for coming to interview at your school?" My inner self sometimes wants to be snarky and say "I don't know if you realize it, but not everyone likes NYC you know." 😀

 

[darkjedi]

Wow guys! Awesome feedback! I had been wondering about this for a while and couldn't really find a thread with the answer.



You absolutely nailed my inner question. If schools care so much about yield, then why accept anyone out right at all? Couldn't you just accept only those you know would come and wait list those who you'd like to come but are unsure of and let LOIs guide to whom you extend offers of acceptance?

(It's a horrible thought but my mind goes to dark places. 🙂)

LizzyM sort of addressed this by saying that schools usually have a better chance of attracting better students if they just accept students outright, instead of pulling them off of a waitlist.

From what I understand though, Columbia doesn't overaccept and pulls a ton of their students off the waitlist. I have friends that have turned down Columbia off the waitlist, despite it being a top choice for the before, but believed they'd rather go to an institution that they had already gone to second look to and felt like they would really like it. I also have a classmate that probably would've gone to Columbia, but got into my school off the waitlist. Had they got into Columbia outright, they said they would've just withdrawn their waitlists as well as not sent in additional letters of interests. I'm not sure why they do it this way because it seems to hurt them more than help them.

 

[Isha2018]

LOIs seem to be another box we need to check for some schools. I feel that some things in this process are really unnecessary. College admissions doesn't compare at all this whole med school process. I mean who ever sent update letters or love letters to the colleges they applied to unless they became an Intel finalist?

I also hate it when interviewers will jab questions at me like why I would even attend their school since I come from the NYC area. (I've been asked this like 5 times already.) Seriously? In my head, I think, "Well, I paid over $500 to get to your school, and that's the kind of question I get for coming to interview at your school?" My inner self sometimes wants to be snarky and say "I don't know if you realize it, but not everyone likes NYC you know." 😀

I'm so sorry you got asked such ridiculous interview questions! Of course you like the prospective school enough to accept their invitation and then spend time and money to attend an interview.

I'm soooo glad I haven't had to write any LOIs as of yet. It would be a very humbling experience to beg for consideration. 🙁

 

[nemo123]

LizzyM sort of addressed this by saying that schools usually have a better chance of attracting better students if they just accept students outright, instead of pulling them off of a waitlist.

From what I understand though, Columbia doesn't overaccept and pulls a ton of their students off the waitlist. I have friends that have turned down Columbia off the waitlist, despite it being a top choice for the before, but believed they'd rather go to an institution that they had already gone to second look to and felt like they would really like it. I also have a classmate that probably would've gone to Columbia, but got into my school off the waitlist. Had they got into Columbia outright, they said they would've just withdrawn their waitlists as well as not sent in additional letters of interests. I'm not sure why they do it this way because it seems to hurt them more than help them.

Really? From interview day it seemed that Columbia does overaccept, but they have pretty significant waitlist movement. @mmmcdowe

 

[nemo123]

I'm so sorry you got asked such ridiculous interview questions! Of course you like the prospective school enough to accept their invitation and then spend time and money to attend an interview.

I'm soooo glad I haven't had to write any LOIs as of yet. It would be a very humbling experience to beg for consideration. 🙁

Haha what's even worse is that NYC schools will ask me why I would pick their school over the other NYC schools. Sometimes, I want to pull my hair out at interviews or be sassy like Nerday Shortay lol (http://mdapplicants.com/profile.php?id=18592). Do these doctors not remember what it was like to go to med school interviews themselves? I swear, some adults seem to forget what it was like to be a child, a teenager, a college student, and what it was like to apply to med school.

Anyways, but once you're in, schools will have to do everything in their power to lure you, so it'll become a humbling experience for them. 😉

 

[darkjedi]

Really? From interview day it seemed that Columbia does overaccept, but they have pretty significant waitlist movement. @mmmcdowe

Such was told to me down a grapevine that supposedly originated from someone in admissions. I could be wrong about the numbers, but I do know that Columbia utilizes it's waitlist heavily, whereas most schools at that level accept maybe only a few dozen students from waitlists a year.

 

[nemo123]

Such was told to me down a grapevine that supposedly originated from someone in admissions. I could be wrong about the numbers, but I do know that Columbia utilizes it's waitlist heavily, whereas most schools at that level accept maybe only a few dozen students from waitlists a year.

Hmm I do know Columbia's yield hovers around 50% and about 1/3 of the class is made up of waitlisters. Last year, Columbia accepted about 300 people to fill its 160 person class, so that probably means about 250 people were accepted outright and about 50 people came of the waitlist I think.

 

[darkjedi]

Hmm I do know Columbia's yield hovers around 50% and about 1/3 of the class is made up of waitlisters. Last year, Columbia accepted about 300 people to fill its 160 person class, so that probably means about 250 people were accepted outright and about 50 people came of the waitlist I think.

you are likely right, as my experience was 2 years ago at this point haha

 

[Pacna]

To gauge how competitive a school is, I think it's fair to see how much their waitlist moves. If it moves a lot, that means students are going elsewhere when given an option. If not moving much, that means students are choosing this school over others. Of course, this is confounded by exactly how many more students a school is accepting over its class size, but I think on average the trend is fair.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

Do schools purposely over-accept interviewees?

In my experience, no.

Disclaimer: I'm currently going through the interview cycle and may be biased 😉

 

[RogueUnicorn]

In my experience, no.

Disclaimer: I'm currently going through the interview cycle and may be biased 😉

nearly every single school over accepts

even columbia 😉

 

[NuttyEngDude]

nearly every single school over accepts

even columbia 😉

I'm making a poor attempt at a joke based on my lack of acceptances 😛

 

[darkjedi]

To gauge how competitive a school is, I think it's fair to see how much their waitlist moves. If it moves a lot, that means students are going elsewhere when given an option. If not moving much, that means students are choosing this school over others. Of course, this is confounded by exactly how many more students a school is accepting over its class size, but I think on average the trend is fair.

This is part of the reason why yield (acceptees/matriculants) is taken into account in rankings. Unfortunately, this incentivizes schools to be very stingy with their acceptances. Even the most competitive schools however only have like 50-60% yield, but some state schools who are very in-state heavy have yield rates up to 70-80% because they are very selective in who they interview/accept.

 

[Goro]

The answer is yes, and it's really an art form to know how many acceptances to give vs the number of seats you have. Schools have historical attrition rates because not everyone comes who is accepted. I think it's some incantations and charms cast by the Admissions Deans, because I have yet to see any sort of algorithm to explain how they do it.

Basically, it really is like overbooking an airliner, but no one goes on standby. Actually, if schools really overbook, they have to admit those students. And because class size is limited by the sanctioning bodies, that means those surplus students will get their tuition gratis!

Hey all. I was wondering relatively how many straight acceptances (as opposed to accepted off the wait list) a school will hand out in terms of its class size? School Z accepts 300 for a class size of 120. But those acceptances include accepted off the wait list, right?

I know how heavily schools use their wait list differs but I am wondering whether schools are off the bat offering more acceptances than seats (the overbooking analogy) or if they just happen to make more acceptance offers than their class size because as applicants declined they had to extend offers to the wait listed?

 

[Isha2018]

I want free tuition, but not at the expense of being one of the 'surplus' admitted students. What a crazy roller coaster we're all on!

 

[darkjedi]

I want free tuition, but not at the expense of being one of the 'surplus' admitted students. What a crazy roller coaster we're all on!

Usually the tuition discount is contingent on taking an additional year off. Some people would jump at the chance. It's usually never full tuition however.

 

[Isha2018]

Usually the tuition discount is contingent on taking an additional year off. Some people would jump at the chance. It's usually never full tuition however.

Interesting. It sounds especially nice for poor, young aspiring med students.

 

[IlDestriero]

Interesting. It sounds especially nice for poor, young aspiring med students.

No it's horrible because it means a year of lost physician income. You can go get a job doing research in some lab for ~30k and get a 20 or 40k tuition waver, but you lose out on a year making real money. 200k, 500k? Maybe more. There's no way I would take that deal.

 

[nOchemallday]

No it's horrible because it means a year of lost physician income. You can go get a job doing research in some lab for ~30k and get a 20 or 40k tuition waver, but you lose out on a year making real money. 200k, 500k? Maybe more. There's no way I would take that deal.

Were it even half tuition, I would certainly jump on it. PA residents have almost no in-state reduced tuition rates which means minimum 40k+/year. Over 4 years that's 160k + interest. I'd gladly take my 80k half tuition, no interest on that 80k, and the extra 30k for the year of work to pay off my UG loans so I have even less interest. Even for 300k+ salaried specialists, it's a pretty good deal.

Obviously if the waiver were only 20k total (and not 20k/year) I would likely reconsider.