DO student applying gen surg

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Rollo

Renowned Wolf
10+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2009
Messages
1,411
Reaction score
12
I wanted to get opinions from current residents/M4's about DO student with USMLE >230 applying solely to allopathic gen surg residencies.

Am I crazy or ballsy to skip the osteopathic match altogether and only apply allopathic?

Ultimate goal is to get into SOME type of fellowship (don't know which one yet) and practice as academic surgeon in the beginning and then later retire my way to a community surgeon.

There are some good osteopathic programs but there are far more better allopathic programs around the state where I'm at now.
 
I would certainly love it if anyone could shed some light on this, as I am planning on doing exactly the same thing as Rollo. Are we crazy to skip the AOA match and only apply to ACGME categorical surgery spots?
 
While I'm aware that it is very difficult, if not impossible, for a DO to match into big academic research powerhouses though fortunately my sight aren't set that high.

I just figure that looking at NRMP stats and sheer number of categorical allo surg programs out there, I have a decent shot at getting in a quality academic or big community programs.

Any comments?
 
I just figure that looking at NRMP stats and sheer number of categorical allo surg programs out there, I have a decent shot at getting in a quality academic or big community programs.

Any comments?
General surgery has one of the highest rates of not matching, only behind a few things like plastics and rad onc, I think. For all the programs out there, there are even more applicants.

Can you not apply for DO and MD residencies? I went to an MD school and only applied as such.
 
General surgery has one of the highest rates of not matching, only behind a few things like plastics and rad onc, I think. For all the programs out there, there are even more applicants.

Can you not apply for DO and MD residencies? I went to an MD school and only applied as such.

I could apply to both. Dilemma is that DO match happens first and if I match at a DO program, I'm automatically removed from the MD match.

As I stated in my OP, there are far more quality programs in the MD world than the DO world and I would rather not see myself "settling" for a smaller DO community program if I could get into a decent sized MD academic program.
 
How's the rest of your app? Step 2? Research? LORs? Away rotations at an allopathic program?

I'm in middle of my 3rd year so haven't taken Step 2 yet. I have some case studies research in ENT that are not published. Have managed to get a strong LOR from a chairman of surgery. Thinking of setting up away rotations at allo programs here in the city.

What more do I need to do?
 
I just figure that looking at NRMP stats and sheer number of categorical allo surg programs out there, I have a decent shot at getting in a quality academic or big community programs.

Will likely be a tough match for you, especially if you're looking at academic programs, and ESPECIALLY if you're limiting yourself to Pennsylvania.

Please apply widely.

You could also just apply to osteopathic programs first, see what they're like during the interview period and only rank to match if you would be happy at those programs.
 
If he wants to compete in the DO slots he will probably have to dedicate some time to it which might limit his ability to check out the MD opportunities.

I'm interested to follow this, nice job Rollo.
 
Agree with the above. Apply broadly, MD and DO. Try to set up elective rotations with your top choice programs and attend as many interviews as possible. I think what you're finding is that not all residency programs are created equal, MD or DO. There are strong programs as well as weak programs, regardless of which governing body is responsible for their accreditation. Look closely at the match lists for the programs you are considering as well as their rotation sites and ability to network during your residency. Inquire about research opportunities, elective months, funding to attend conferences (great chance to meet people) and fellowships associated with the program. Find out what the recent graduates have done regarding jobs or fellowships.

Realize that each program has a distinct "personality", if you will. There are differences in the sizes of hospitals, number of hospitals in the program, size of the residency classes, preliminary vs categorical spots, etc. Make sure you do your homework so that you can focus your attention on the best programs for you as an individual.
 
I am also planning on going for Allo GS as a DO student, but I wouldn't suggest completely skipping the DO match. I believe if you register for the DO match but do not submit a rank list, then you will be able to scramble into a DO program later on. If you did not register for the DO match you would not be able to do this. Just to keep your options open, I know its what I plan on doing.
 
I am also planning on going for Allo GS as a DO student, but I wouldn't suggest completely skipping the DO match. I believe if you register for the DO match but do not submit a rank list, then you will be able to scramble into a DO program later on. If you did not register for the DO match you would not be able to do this. Just to keep your options open, I know its what I plan on doing.

Mind posting or PMing me your stats?
 
Rollo:

While not applying gen surg, I was in a similar position as you last year. My dream is to be an orthopaedic surgeon. I knew I had the numbers/class rank/research to go MD ortho had I gone to an MD school, but I too am a DO student. There aren't any DO ortho programs around me, so my only experience was with MD residencies. I also knew that if I rotated at DO residencies that my top choices would still be allopathic.

I originally set up one DO rotation and 3 MDs; however, the DO got cancelled due to school affiliation agreements. Then, I got my step 2 scores back, and my USMLE was WAY higher than my COMLEX. I took these as signs (I prayed a lot on this), that I was supposed to go only MD. I decided to go for the gusto and only apply MD. My reasoning was that if I knew my top choices were going to be ACGME, I should put 100% of my efforts into getting into an ACGME residency. If I rotated half and half, in my mind that was putting half effort into each. Therefore, I rotated 3 MD programs. So far, I have gotten 5 interviews, 1 wait list and 15 rejections, with over 100 schools to go. (If you're gonna do this, you're gonna have to go for it - which means apply broadly)!!! So far, it's going OK, but I'll let you know how I feel come March.

If you decide to do this, I would choose at least 2 rotations with "DO friendly" residencies (i.e. either have a DO resident, have had one, or you KNOW they would take one). Go where other students in your school have gone/interviewed also. If you have a dream to be the first at one place, then go for it. There always has to be a first one! That's how ground is broken! Just know that you can't be just as good as your MD counterparts. You have to be better! However, don't do 3 rotations at 3 top 10 MD residencies that have never had a DO. That would be stupid. You have to be realistic.

Rotations will be crucial for you. You must excel.

Get ready to get a LOT of rejections. You will feel like the smelly, fat kid at the dance that no one wants to dance with. It's OK though, because maybe a hot chick will take a chance and dance with you. And when she does...you'd better be Usher or Emmit Smith from Dancing with The Stars or something.

Another crucial point - you have to be prepared to NOT match. This is possible. I understand that it's still very possible for me. My back up plan is to rotate and apply DO next year if I don't match this year. The way I look at it is...it is just one extra year of my life to have a chance at living my dream.

I am not saying this is the route for you. You have to pray about (or just think real hard about if you're an atheist) what's right for you. This is not the path for everyone, and I certainly don't recommend it for everyone. I also know nothing of the gen surg application process. I do know that the average boards scores and the percentage of people not matching are both higher in ortho; however, I've also heard that ACGME gen surg is more unfriendly to DOs than ortho. That's just hearsay, though. This is simply my point of view and some pointers should you choose to go this route. I understand this is a very stressful decision, so if you need any more advice, PM me.

I hope this helps and good luck. 🙂
 
Rollo:

While not applying gen surg, I was in a similar position as you last year. My dream is to be an orthopaedic surgeon. I knew I had the numbers/class rank/research to go MD ortho had I gone to an MD school, but I too am a DO student. There aren't any DO ortho programs around me, so my only experience was with MD residencies. I also knew that if I rotated at DO residencies that my top choices would still be allopathic.

I originally set up one DO rotation and 3 MDs; however, the DO got cancelled due to school affiliation agreements. Then, I got my step 2 scores back, and my USMLE was WAY higher than my COMLEX. I took these as signs (I prayed a lot on this), that I was supposed to go only MD. I decided to go for the gusto and only apply MD. My reasoning was that if I knew my top choices were going to be ACGME, I should put 100% of my efforts into getting into an ACGME residency. If I rotated half and half, in my mind that was putting half effort into each. Therefore, I rotated 3 MD programs. So far, I have gotten 5 interviews, 1 wait list and 15 rejections, with over 100 schools to go. (If you're gonna do this, you're gonna have to go for it - which means apply broadly)!!! So far, it's going OK, but I'll let you know how I feel come March.

If you decide to do this, I would choose at least 2 rotations with "DO friendly" residencies (i.e. either have a DO resident, have had one, or you KNOW they would take one). Go where other students in your school have gone/interviewed also. If you have a dream to be the first at one place, then go for it. There always has to be a first one! That's how ground is broken! Just know that you can't be just as good as your MD counterparts. You have to be better! However, don't do 3 rotations at 3 top 10 MD residencies that have never had a DO. That would be stupid. You have to be realistic.

Rotations will be crucial for you. You must excel.

Get ready to get a LOT of rejections. You will feel like the smelly, fat kid at the dance that no one wants to dance with. It's OK though, because maybe a hot chick will take a chance and dance with you. And when she does...you'd better be Usher or Emmit Smith from Dancing with The Stars or something.

Another crucial point - you have to be prepared to NOT match. This is possible. I understand that it's still very possible for me. My back up plan is to rotate and apply DO next year if I don't match this year. The way I look at it is...it is just one extra year of my life to have a chance at living my dream.

I am not saying this is the route for you. You have to pray about (or just think real hard about if you're an atheist) what's right for you. This is not the path for everyone, and I certainly don't recommend it for everyone. I also know nothing of the gen surg application process. I do know that the average boards scores and the percentage of people not matching are both higher in ortho; however, I've also heard that ACGME gen surg is more unfriendly to DOs than ortho. That's just hearsay, though. This is simply my point of view and some pointers should you choose to go this route. I understand this is a very stressful decision, so if you need any more advice, PM me.

I hope this helps and good luck. 🙂

Great post, love it when those up the ladder care to give detailed accounts of what they went through.

Best of luck👍
 
Rollo:

While not applying gen surg, I was in a similar position as you last year. My dream is to be an orthopaedic surgeon. I knew I had the numbers/class rank/research to go MD ortho had I gone to an MD school, but I too am a DO student. There aren't any DO ortho programs around me, so my only experience was with MD residencies. I also knew that if I rotated at DO residencies that my top choices would still be allopathic.

I originally set up one DO rotation and 3 MDs; however, the DO got cancelled due to school affiliation agreements. Then, I got my step 2 scores back, and my USMLE was WAY higher than my COMLEX. I took these as signs (I prayed a lot on this), that I was supposed to go only MD. I decided to go for the gusto and only apply MD. My reasoning was that if I knew my top choices were going to be ACGME, I should put 100% of my efforts into getting into an ACGME residency. If I rotated half and half, in my mind that was putting half effort into each. Therefore, I rotated 3 MD programs. So far, I have gotten 5 interviews, 1 wait list and 15 rejections, with over 100 schools to go. (If you're gonna do this, you're gonna have to go for it - which means apply broadly)!!! So far, it's going OK, but I'll let you know how I feel come March.

If you decide to do this, I would choose at least 2 rotations with "DO friendly" residencies (i.e. either have a DO resident, have had one, or you KNOW they would take one). Go where other students in your school have gone/interviewed also. If you have a dream to be the first at one place, then go for it. There always has to be a first one! That's how ground is broken! Just know that you can't be just as good as your MD counterparts. You have to be better! However, don't do 3 rotations at 3 top 10 MD residencies that have never had a DO. That would be stupid. You have to be realistic.

Rotations will be crucial for you. You must excel.

Get ready to get a LOT of rejections. You will feel like the smelly, fat kid at the dance that no one wants to dance with. It's OK though, because maybe a hot chick will take a chance and dance with you. And when she does...you'd better be Usher or Emmit Smith from Dancing with The Stars or something.

Another crucial point - you have to be prepared to NOT match. This is possible. I understand that it's still very possible for me. My back up plan is to rotate and apply DO next year if I don't match this year. The way I look at it is...it is just one extra year of my life to have a chance at living my dream.

I am not saying this is the route for you. You have to pray about (or just think real hard about if you're an atheist) what's right for you. This is not the path for everyone, and I certainly don't recommend it for everyone. I also know nothing of the gen surg application process. I do know that the average boards scores and the percentage of people not matching are both higher in ortho; however, I've also heard that ACGME gen surg is more unfriendly to DOs than ortho. That's just hearsay, though. This is simply my point of view and some pointers should you choose to go this route. I understand this is a very stressful decision, so if you need any more advice, PM me.

I hope this helps and good luck. 🙂

You have some balls bro to completely skip DO ortho match and just go for the gold. Props to you, I hope you land your #1 choice.
 
Hey, thanks for the kind words guys! I hope I match, too 🙂

Again, feel free to PM me with any specific questions.
 
One of the key elements is an elective/audition rotation with the program(s) you are most considering. It's not always easy to schedule and arrange time at an institution which is not affiliated with your school, but the effort will be worth it in the end.

Best of luck!
 
I think I can provide some good insight into this topic. I'm an OMS4 from NYCOM who is going through the application and interview process right now for Gen Surg. I applied to both, although I only applied to select Osteopathic programs. I scored 99's on both Steps, was in the top 15% in my class and have gotten some great letters of recommendation, including a stellar one from the program director at a university program here in NY. I applied to a total of 40 programs, mostly in NY but including NJ, Pennsylvania, Connecticut and Massachusetts. So far I have been granted 10 interviews, 3 osteopathic and 7 allopathic.

I still haven't made up my mind as to which match I will enter. It is a very tough decision. While it is true that the osteopathic programs I applied to train excellent surgeons, none of them are as balanced or complete in their training as the allopathic programs I have rotated in. I never take anything for granted, nor do I count my chickens before they hatch, but I feel that I have an excellent chance to match into any of the osteopathic programs I applied to. It is incredibly difficult for me to justify passing up a spot in an osteopathic program for a crap shoot in the allopathic match. Even at that University program where I recieved the great LOR, despite my performance, I am still on the fringe, and they have been known to match several DO's in the past.

However, it is not as grim as it may seem. I know an osteopathic graduate from my school who matched into a university program and then went on to get a peds surg fellowship. Anything is possible.

My advice to the OP, commit one way or the other and work your balls off. There is nothing worse than being in my position and constantly agonizing about which fork in the road to take. Rotate at the allopathic programs you are interested in and those where you think you may have a shot, and do nothing less than blow their expectations out of the water. That's the best thing you can do. Second, have a back-up plan. I love surgery but I will not waste my life in prelim limbo. If for some reason I end up in a prelim spot, I have a plan of action that includes not only reapplying for gen surg, but also applying for other surgical specialties and even non-surgical specialites. But that's just me. Figure out what's most important to you. For my sake I hope this is all just anxiety and that I do match, but only time will tell. Good luck!
 
I applied to a total of 40 programs, mostly in NY but including NJ, Pennsylvania, Connecticut and Massachusetts. So far I have been granted 10 interviews, 3 osteopathic and 7 allopathic.

40 total? How many AOA and how many ACGME? Just curious.
 
Yes it is possible. I only applied to only allopathic general surgery programs coming from a DO school. I matched into a University Program, did a fellowship in a university program and now an attending at a university program. Would be glad to answer questions but basically you need to take USMLE and do well, I did my core rotations at MD teaching hospital and this is where i got my letters from including a chair and program director letter. You need to put yourself on a level playing field. Make it easy for other PD's to compare you to other MD candidates (usmle scores, etc). Good luck to all.
 
What do you all think about taking USMLE step 2? If I am very happy with my USMLE step 1 score so do I really need to pay another $500 for step 2 or should I just take the COMLEX step 2. Anyone heard of any programs that require USMLE step 2?
 
What do you all think about taking USMLE step 2? If I am very happy with my USMLE step 1 score so do I really need to pay another $500 for step 2 or should I just take the COMLEX step 2. Anyone heard of any programs that require USMLE step 2?

Take it (and do well), period. This is directly from several PD's at mid and upper tier programs.


I'm on the fence about AOA/ACGME and in the same position as Rollo and company. I have zero research since my undergrad years (unpublished) though.. I think this is going to hurt me at ACGME programs :lame:. I'm gonna apply and see what happens though..good luck everyone.

Is it just me that feels like general surgery is more competitive than I thought it was when I first entered medical school?
 
Last edited:
Having now matched as a DO into an academic MD gen Surg program here is my advice.

You have to take USMLE step 1 and 2. You need to apply broadly. Community MD programs are much easy to get interviews so also apply to those as backup (or if you want/like them just apply to lots of those because some are great). In terms of getting interviews at the larger big city academic MD programs you need to apply broadly (I applied to 60, got interviews at 25, went on 15 or so). It's hit or miss where you get interviews. I got interviews at some great programs and not at some bad ones. But it's not only because I was a DO, this happens to MD students too. To match into a MD academic hospital in a good location I think you need well above average board scores. Research helps some as well as other things like dual degrees and grades. Doing rotations at programs often will get you an interview so schedule some via vsas where you are interested in for August through nov or so. Many people match at places they rotated at however I matched at a program that I didn't rotate at. If you don't have great scores then you just need to be more flexible with what you want. You can still match md gen Surg but maybe a community program or academic program in a less exciting city is more realistic. However if you can at all avoid it I personally would, it's easier to match in medical school than it is after a prelim year so it doesn't help you either.

However if you think your a competitive candidate go for it and apply to big places (plus lots of backups). I matched at a big name academic program in the NE that has never taken a DO so it's possible. Anyway I am not a big SDN person but I was bored post match and thought I'd give my two cents and try to help some people out.
 
Last edited:
Congats! Thanks for sharing and best of luck to you.
 
Top