DO students - easier path to residency VS foreign MD?

[Noomm]

Why is it that everyone always talks about how it's such a big risk to go to a foreign school - even one with a good reputation (eg University of Queensland or Sackler) - that it's better just to go to a DO school?

Some foreign schools are just as competitive, if not more competitive, to get into as some DO schools. I feel like if I were a residency PD, I would understand that. So why do people say that if you want to practice in the US, stay in the US. Does the US government pay money to residencies for taking US students or something? I know they do that for so-called URMs - my friend's dad is a PD and he said that the government pays money to programs that take on URMs.

Does anyone here have any answers?

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[el_duderino]

I feel like if I were a residency PD

Protip: if you find yourself thinking about what you would do if you were in a situation you know little about, and it differs significantly from people in that situation actually tend to act, just stop your thought right there.

The reason people say that if you want to practice in the US, stay in the US, is because your chances of being accepted into a residency program are dramatically higher for US programs than foreign programs, no matter what the letters on the degree.

 

[Noomm]

@jonnythan are you having a bad day? Because your post seemed very rude and obnoxious to me. Maybe that is just how you normally talk, but I would appreciate it if you showed me a little more respect. I'm a human being just like yourself.

Protip: if you find yourself thinking about what you would do if you were in a situation you know little about, and it differs significantly from people in that situation actually tend to act, just stop your thought right there.

Thank you for your input, but I have a scientific mind and I can't help but speculate on these things - even if it deals with a situation that I "know little about." In addition to this, I don't agree with what you are implying - that I should never question anything unless I am absolutely certain of everything. What is the point of asking questions if you already know the answer? (Unless it's a rhetorical question like this one. How ironic.)

The reason people say that if you want to practice in the US, stay in the US, is because your chances of being accepted into a residency program are dramatically higher for US programs than foreign programs, no matter what the letters on the degree.

Yes, I know that. The question is why.

 

[el_duderino]

Yes, I know that. The question is why.

The reason is that the stronger students typically go to, and come from, US institutions. The Americans who end up studying medicine outside the US, intending to practice in the US, are typically the ones who are not able to get into a US medical school.

Furthermore, US medical schools tend to offer far more student support and significantly better clinical training than foreign schools such as those in the Caribbean.

And no, I'm not having a bad day. I'm not sure what "a scientific mind" has to do with you essentially implying US PDs are fools. My suggestion is that instead of declaring how *you* would do something if you were a physician in charge of a residency program, first find out why the people who are do it the way they do it.

You say "the question is why," so just ask the question. The other part is unnecessary.

 

[Noomm]

@jonnythan so you always act this way? Then my suggestion to you is to treat other people with a modicum of decency.

My suggestion is that instead of declaring how *you* would do something if you were a physician in charge of a residency program, first find out why the people who are do it the way they do it.

That's exactly what I'm doing. Of course I don't have the answers - it's a question. Just because I speculate on a possible answer doesn't mean that I'm claiming to be omniscient.

 

[el_duderino]

@jonnythan so you always act this way? Then my suggestion to you is to treat other people with a modicum of decency.

That's exactly what I'm doing. Of course I don't have the answers - it's a question. Just because I speculate on a possible answer doesn't mean that I'm claiming to be omniscient.

I was trying to help you out. I've learned over time that speculating on what I would do if I were a member of a very different group of people, when I know full well that those people don't do or think that way, can come across as condescending and insulting. "If I were a black guy..." or "If I were a cop..." or "If I were a lawyer...." or "If I were a woman...." or whatever. I just avoid saying anything like that at all anymore. Instead, I try to understand the motivations of other people without implying that they're doing something stupid or wrong.

SDN doesn't pay me enough to pat people on the head. Take it or leave it.

 

[Goro]

IMGs, specifically Americans who go to the Carib diploma mills, have a number of risk factors that PDs are well aware of, such a failing to look before they leap, parental pressure, poor UG stats, prone to risk taking, gullibility etc.

FMGs are different. A German doc who trained at Heidelburg will be viewed in a different light.

But it boils down to the fact that med schools are feeders for residencies, like UG schools are feeders for med schools. When the product is known, PDs well, know what they're getting.

 

[Gandyy]

Actually Jonnythan is just telling the truth, and hes not even being particularly "mean" about it. Some of you guys need to toughen up your skin.

 

[Lawpy]

Why is it that everyone always talks about how it's such a big risk to go to a foreign school - even one with a good reputation (eg University of Queensland or Sackler) - that it's better just to go to a DO school?

Some foreign schools are just as competitive, if not more competitive, to get into as some DO schools. I feel like if I were a residency PD, I would understand that. So why do people say that if you want to practice in the US, stay in the US. Does the US government pay money to residencies for taking US students or something? I know they do that for so-called URMs - my friend's dad is a PD and he said that the government pays money to programs that take on URMs.

Does anyone here have any answers?

Because it's easier for US residency program directors to just choose nedical graduates from US institutions that they are very well familiar with (and yes this even includes the newly accredited schools). Ideally, PDs like the ACGME system of medical education a lot, so preference is given to US MDs over US DOs.

PDs aren't closed-minded so they are well aware of good foreign institutions. But even despite that, they are reluctant to take in US citizens from foreign programs because they could hsve equally utilized the American education system if they want to practice in the US.

This is simply common sense applied for any country. If you want to practice in US, go to medical school in US. If you want to practice in Europe/Caribbean etc., go to medical school over there. Why attend a medical school tailored to a very different healthcare system if your ultimate goal is to return to the US?

Foreign graduates (who grew up and studied abroad) have inherently more advantage to matching in the US than IMGs but are still at a disadvantage compared to US graduates since PDs have a strong preference for their own. Again, this applies for any country.

So, US MD > US DO > FMG > Reputable IMG > alternative career > standardized patient >>> Caribbean IMG

 

[NotASerialKiller]

He was just blunt, not antagonistic. Try not to scold people who are voluntarily giving you advice because of how you interpret their tone (which is hard to tell simply through text).

 

[Petrichor1]

the thing I learned from healthcare is connections. It is much easier to establish that if you are trained in the country you are seeking an employment in. This goes with the territory guys.

 

[Gandyy]

Because it's easier for US residency program directors to just choose nedical graduates from US institutions that they are very well familiar with (and yes this even includes the newly accredited schools). Ideally, PDs like the ACGME system of medical education a lot, so preference is given to US MDs over US DOs.

PDs aren't closed-minded so they are well aware of good foreign institutions. But even despite that, they are reluctant to take in US citizens from foreign programs because they could hsve equally utilized the American education system if they want to practice in the US.

This is simply common sense applied for any country. If you want to practice in US, go to medical school in US. If you want to practice in Europe/Caribbean etc., go to medical school over there. Why attend a medical school tailored to a very different healthcare system if your ultimate goal is to return to the US?

Foreign graduates (who grew up and studied abroad) have inherently more advantage to matching in the US than IMGs but are still at a disadvantage compared to US graduates since PDs have a strong preference for their own. Again, this applies for any country.

So, US MD > US DO > FMG > Reputable IMG > alternative career > standardized patient >>> Caribbean IMG

Wait what, the bolded isnt even a medical school? Also I'm not sure if there is such thing as a "reputable IMG". If anything there are reputable FMGs.

 

[Lawpy]

Wait what, the bolded isnt even a medical school? Also I'm not sure if there is such thing as a "reputable IMG". If anything there are reputable FMGs.

Reputable IMG = IMG who attends a reputable foreign institution, like UK/Aus/Can/Sackler etc. A recent thread on UK/Aus vs unaccredited DO mentions that. Apparently a 90% match rate for going back to US residencies

 

[Gandyy]

Reputable IMG = IMG who attends a reputable foreign institution, like UK/Aus/Can/Sackler etc. A recent thread on UK/Aus vs unaccredited DO mentions that. Apparently a 90% match rate for going back to US residencies

That would be a FMG then.... Anything that isn't Caribbean is FMG I believe.

 

[el_duderino]

That would be a FMG then.... Anything that isn't Caribbean is FMG I believe.

As I understand it, IMG typically refers to an American who goes outside the country for medical education, intending to come back to practice in the US.

FMG refers to a foreign national who trained outside the US (such as an Indian who studied in India, or a Brit who studied in Germany, etc) and wants to practice in the US.

 

[Gandyy]

As I understand it, IMG typically refers to an American who goes outside the country for medical education, intending to come back to practice in the US.

FMG refers to a foreign national who trained outside the US (such as an Indian who studied in India, or a Brit who studied in Germany, etc) and wants to practice in the US.

I see. That also makes sense.

 

[Goro]

What jonny said.

And for those of you who had issues with jonny's posts, do NOT ever visit New York City.

We use the term "F you" as a greeting.

As I understand it, IMG typically refers to an American who goes outside the country for medical education, intending to come back to practice in the US.

FMG refers to a foreign national who trained outside the US (such as an Indian who studied in India, or a Brit who studied in Germany, etc) and wants to practice in the US.

 

[deleted407021]

Claims to have "a scientific mind", actively engages in blatantly unscientific cognitions.

 

[deleted407021]

Just because the majority of people are dinguses doesn't mean that we should support/defend being an dingus.

No one in this thread has been the least bit antagonistic.

 

[NewHorizons]

He was just blunt, not antagonistic. Try not to scold people who are voluntarily giving you advice because of how you interpret their tone (which is hard to tell simply through text).

Lets be fair.... most people that are sensitive, especially with written text, haven't had a fall out with anyone or had people tell them off. Makes me think the OP is a sheltered individual.

I say it again and again, take the post for it's information, not whether you like it or not. God the number of people thinking that harsh/blunt answers are personal attacks are mind-numbingly high.

More to the topic... even if there was no "reason" per say, the numbers reflect the situation. That alone would make me hesitate on taking options abroad.

Oh and @NotASerialKiller I found that chocolate troll guy on premed101. Lol

 

[Spector1]

staying in the US is the best path to staying in the US.

I'd go DO before going abroad.

 

[deleted158872]

The reason is that the stronger students typically go to, and come from, US institutions. The Americans who end up studying medicine outside the US, intending to practice in the US, are typically the ones who are not able to get into a US medical school.

Furthermore, US medical schools tend to offer far more student support and significantly better clinical training than foreign schools such as those in the Caribbean.

And no, I'm not having a bad day. I'm not sure what "a scientific mind" has to do with you essentially implying US PDs are fools. My suggestion is that instead of declaring how *you* would do something if you were a physician in charge of a residency program, first find out why the people who are do it the way they do it.

You say "the question is why," so just ask the question. The other part is unnecessary.

"Stronger candidates go to/come from US schools..." Not necessarily... Truth is that getting into DO schools is less difficult than getting into UK schools.

 

[el_duderino]

"Stronger candidates go to/come from US schools..." Not necessarily... Truth is that getting into DO schools is less difficult than getting into UK schools.

I don't know who you're quoting there, but that's not my quote.

This is what I said:

"The reason is that the stronger students typically go to, and come from, US institutions. The Americans who end up studying medicine outside the US, intending to practice in the US, are typically the ones who are not able to get into a US medical school."

Note we're talking about American citizens here, as well. Is it even possible for an American to go to the UK for medical school and come back to the US to practice? Is that a thing people do?

 

[Gandyy]

"Stronger candidates go to/come from US schools..." Not necessarily... Truth is that getting into DO schools is less difficult than getting into UK schools.

Thats not an entirely true statement. Depends on the DO school. I bet its still harder to get into CCOM than most UK schools. I've done some research into foreign schools just in case I scored a horrendous score on the MCAT again. Turns out requirements for medical school admissions in other parts of the world besides Canada are much much more loose and less strict.

Its just hard to get into medical school in the United States.

Now... if we talk about KYCOM with its 24 MCAT, 3.4 gpa average... then yea its probably harder to get into a UK school.

Also take into account that the MCAT is probably significantly harder than other Medical school admission tests around the world. Its hard as hell.

 

[deleted158872]

I checked up UK schools as well. Some do take the MCAT. Their schools are standardized, so all of theirs are more or less on the same level relative to each other. There's not much variation as you can see with CCOM vs. LUCOM, Johns Hopkins vs. ... in the US... Just bc one may meet the minimum requirements doesn't mean he can get in bc dmission is competitive as hell, and harder for international applicants due to limited seats...
Those 6-year programs straight from high school require you to score a 5 on at least 3 AP exams in addition to others.

Other European countries besides the UK and Ireland do have pretty relaxed standards of admission compared to the US. I would totally go to med school in Germany and stay there if I were fluent in German (their universities are great & 100% free even for foreigners!)

 

[Gandyy]

I checked up UK schools as well. Some do take the MCAT. Their schools are standardized, so all of theirs are more or less on the same level relative to each other. There's not much variation as you can see with CCOM vs. LUCOM, Johns Hopkins vs. ... in the US... Just bc one may meet the minimum requirements doesn't mean he can get in bc dmission is competitive as hell, and harder for international applicants due to limited seats...
Those 6-year programs straight from high school require you to score a 5 on at least 3 AP exams in addition to others.

Other European countries besides the UK and Ireland do have pretty relaxed standards of admission compared to the US. I would totally go to med school in Germany and stay there if I were fluent in German (their universities are great & 100% free even for foreigners!)

Ok but in general even most DO programs here are going to be more competitive. Competition in the USA and Canada is INSANEly high.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

IMGs, specifically Americans who go to the Carib diploma mills, have a number of risk factors that PDs are well aware of, FMGs are different. A German doc who trained at Heidelburg will be viewed in a different light. PDs well, know what they're getting.

I endorse this.